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JillD
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| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 12:18 pm |
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Ah, those around me are always testing my new faith in Christ through the Catholic Church. I know this is an old topic, but if there is a good article that explains what Pope John Paul II might have been thinking when he kissed the Koran, I'd like to read it. As Christians, we ought to always put the best construction on our neighbor's actions - unless they're Catholic!
http://www.jimmyakin.org/images/john_paul_ii_quran.jpg to see a picture of the event.
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Annie
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 12:40 pm |
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I think he made an honest mistake. Kissing the book is normally reserved for the Book of Gospels. Since the Koran definitely contradicts our beliefs as Catholics it wouldn't be appropriate to kiss it, especially in a position as bishop. Maybe somebody told him it was a Bible. This is one explanation I have heard. Or he may have been caught up in the moment and not thought about what it might look like.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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BodRod
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 01:40 pm |
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I don't think it was a mistake at all. Our church includes kissing during the service. The priests and the deacons kiss the alter as they enter the service and again as they leave as a sign of respect. During the servicees in the National Shrine, the priests and deacons share a kiss of recognition and respect before they share the elements of communion. I have been hugged many times and kissed a few times in the entry of my church. I think this custom goes waaaaay back to the time of Christ and maybe even beyond. Come to think about it, Christ was betrayed by a kiss of greeting.
So, I think the pope was just showing respect to the traditions, religion and people of the country. I think he kissed almost everything. I can remember him even kissing the ground when he arrived at different countries.
Last edited on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 07:33 pm by BodRod
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Annie
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 02:28 pm |
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Jimmy Akin's take on it is pretty comprehensive as are the comments here:
http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2006/05/why_did_pope_jo.html
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Annie
Ora et labora
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 04:44 pm |
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What's interesting is that all the reasons people give for why he kissed the Koran are based on speculation of why people THINK he did it. I don't suppose anyone had ever asked him directly, had they? Hearing it directly from his mouth is the only way we will ever know the truth.
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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BodRod
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 06:08 pm |
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| And what makes James Akin the expert regarding the pope's behavior?
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 07:10 pm |
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This is one of those areas where we don't have to act as though EVERYTHING a pope does is right or in which we must agree with him. If JPII never commented on this controversial action, then I suppose no one will ever know. (in this life, that is) I don't think that the Koran should/is to be considered on par with our Sacred Scripture, the Holy Bible. The Koran does not even consider that Jesus Christ our Lord is the true Messiah and Savior of the world. Therefore, kissing, which is a very special honor given prior to the reading of the Word of God, and on the altar before Holy Communion, should not be displayed toward other religions' holy books or sacramentals.
The problem with this action is that it casted even more doubt on the Catholic faith from those who are already anti-Catholic. It just bolstered their wrong view of Catholics all the more. And to be honest, there are many devoted Catholics who have had a serious problem with JPII kissing the Koran. I'm glad that I hadn't heard about this at the beginning of my journey toward the Catholic faith, or I may very well have made a turn about right back into Protestantism. But now that I know it is not incumbant upon me to defend every action of the pope, it doesn't really trouble me.
Many great, holy men have done and said some things over the centuries that have been misunderstood, questionable, or downright wrong. Origen, an early church father, took Jesus words literally in the passage about cutting off a part of the body that causes one to sin. Tertullian said some very inappropriate and even unscriptual things about marriage. Some beloved saints were said to have a morbid love of death, because they spoke for a longing to be torn apart by the wild beasts.
Actually, I feel a sense of peace at knowing that the popes are human, just like us. Therefore, I don't have to agree with all that they have done. So in this case, I will just agree to disagree with the beloved John Paul II. Perhaps I'll hear about it in heaven just why he kissed that Koran. But I doubt I'll even be concerned about such things then. 
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 07:24 pm |
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Darlene, you are absolutely right! Actually, it's almost amusing to read what everyone THINKS the Pope was thinking when he kissed the Koran. It's almost as much fun as speculating what Jesus was writing in the sand when the crowds wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery (with an adulterous man, no doubt). (See John 8:6.) We may never know.
And the way I think I'll deal with the accusation from Protestants when they say, "Did you know your Pope kissed the Koran? Why would he do that??" is to ask them the same question: "Why do YOU think he did that??"
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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BettyBoopToo
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| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 09:04 pm |
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I used to participate alot more at the CA forum, or I should say I read and lurked over there, I knew that they had some very long and extensive threads on this very topic, If anyone is interested here is a link to a thread that is now closed, but open to view what others had to say too.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=134771&highlight=kissing+Quran
And here is a link to all the many discussion on the Late Great Pope JPII that was a firm teacher that christian charity "In All Area's" was what he wanted the church of Jesus Christ to be understood as being, with respect for other people of faith.
http://forums.catholic.com/search.php?searchid=535332
IMOHO, I believe that our late holy father was just showing his respect to the muslim people and the world. No matter what the world teaches, I've never found anything in Catholic teaching that would suggest that we be rude or intolerant of others faith, even when we may feel they are wrong, I still believe that we should respect their faith. The popes in the past that we believe were bad popes, were nearly always the ones that showed tremendous intolerance of others faith ( from my understanding of Luthers writings) and the drastic or evil attemps they made to prevent those from deciding on their own, what faith they would belong to.
Just my personal thought. Popes cannot do their job well, if they seek the approval of mere humans and they must work always with the will of Christ and the intention of what's best for the entirety of the church in the entire world. I would imagine that there are many things that popes do that some of us would be critical of, as we consider our own opinions and not the good of the whole church.
GB
Betty
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"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 09:44 pm |
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BettyBoopToo wrote:I believe that our late holy father was just showing his respect to the Muslim people and the world.
I remember watching the event live. The Vatican commentator mentioned exactly this as the reason the Holy Father kissed the Q’uran. It had nothing to do with honoring the book itself or its contents, but with honoring and loving the people the book stood for.
This is our Christian duty, regardless of any other factors which might tend to make Muslims look like enemies of Christianity or of the countries around the world where we Christians dwell. Charity remains the single most important command of God, no matter who we are. And our great leader demonstrated this in his gesture as he stood inside the mosque.
David
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brian
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Posted: Wed Jun 27th, 2007 11:49 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
I remember watching the event live. The Vatican commentator mentioned exactly this as the reason the Holy Father kissed the Q’uran. It had nothing to do with honoring the book itself or its contents, but with honoring and loving the people the book stood for.
This is our Christian duty, regardless of any other factors which might tend to make Muslims look like enemies of Christianity or of the countries around the world where we Christians dwell. Charity remains the single most important command of God, no matter who we are. And our great leader demonstrated this in his gesture as he stood inside the mosque.
David
I think I can respect and even appreciate this as long as I do not have to agree with it personally. I will just choose to suspend judgment and say that I hope it was the right thing to do even though I have reservations and could not do the same thing myself.
I do wonder if such a thing causes more harm or good for our faith. It certainly gives lots of ammo to anti-catholics, yet those are the type who may have never taken our claims seriously anyway. But maybe there are some who would have and this event shook their confidence in our Church. But then again I trust that if the Holy Spirit is leading someone then they will find a way to resolve the matter. I mean, I had heard about it and I stuck around long enough.
It may also have done us some good as people can see our church as repectful of other cultures and this opens us up to more ecumenical dialogue. CAtch more flies with honey sort of thing. People may actually respect us and want to take our views seriously because we respect them, unlike some Christian groups who I think can be too hostile and appear arogant even if they are speaking truth. For instance when the Dalai Lama visited chicago, there were stories of Chrsitians attending the events seeking to convert Buddhists. Now I am not against trying to discuss our faith with others in hopes of winning converts. Many of the saints did this, and sometimes I think the Catholic Church could be more willing to evangelize more directly, but in that story I think Chrsitians looked to eager to tell others what to believe and not eager enoough to first be respectful and learn from others and honor their presence. Seems nowadays building bridges is a much better idea than making enemies.
I think there needs to be balance though of people seeing us respecting them yet knowing that we disagree and sometimes I think Catholics tend to make it seem like we do not have any disagreements with other faiths when we clearly do. Sometimes I think that though our religion is not relativisitic that sometimes because of our trying to be charitable and put the best spin on things I fear it makes people see us that way. I have met people who I think take our charitable attitdue toward others out of context.
Basically, I do not know. I, like Darlene, am glad I do not have to agree with every decision a pope makes. But I do love JPII and think he tried his best to love all people at all times and that it resulted in helping many on the path toward conversion and holiness. And he even liked and appeared with Bob Dylan and used that as an evangelistic opportunity an event that Pope Benedict seems to want to correct him on (I love both popes and Bob Dylan myself, and can respect the reasons why one would like him and the other not like him)
But in any case my question is this. I am all for mutual respect, as long as it is short of worshipping according to their theology. For instance, if I were moslem and I sawe my leader kiss the Bible that would be one thing, but if I saw my leader genuflect before the Eucharist I would be very upset because that is not a sign of respect so much as giving worship itself to Jesus. Of course it does not bother me when non catholics visit church and bow when we do out of respect, but when you are a public and knowledgable figure I think your actions are to be more cautious.
But I do not think that Moslems have the same sacramental view we have or would see kissing the Koran as worshipping their specific ideas of God so I think that makes me feel better. I still don't like it, but I love John Paul II and I won't let this event stop me even if it leaves me guessing when so much of his life and teaching were so clearly holy.
Brian
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2007 10:02 am |
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Good post, Brian. I like Bob Dylan too, and don't have a problem with JPII meeting with him. Back in the 80's, Dylan recorded a Christian record. It was pretty good. I'm not quite sure where he stands with regard to his Christian belief.
It sure would be nice to know just what JPII was thinking when he did that. A leader, such as the pope, must be cognizant of how his actions affect others. Of course, there are times when the truth is offensive, but one must speak it, and take a stand upon it. However, in this case, the truth as to whether it was right or wrong or negotiable is not clear. With all this said, I would not want to see Catholics making a habit of kissing the Koran, for ecumenical reasons.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2007 11:04 am |
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| I'm with Darlene. In our culture, kissing a book gives assent to its contents.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2007 12:35 pm |
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Darlene wrote:Of course, there are times when the truth is offensive, but one must speak it, and take a stand upon it. However, in this case, the truth as to whether it was right or wrong or negotiable is not clear.
Referring to the outward gesture, I believe this is a reasonable interpretation. Its inward significance became more evident in the speeches that followed.
There were two political speeches by Muslim political leaders. They were essentially a bland welcome. Then the Holy Father spoke warmly of the charitable exchanges he would like to see take place between Christians and Muslims, and he expressed his concern for the victims of the ceaseless conflicts that have plagued the middle east. Finally, a Muslim imam spoke. His words were full of venom and hatred and threats. There was a marked contrast between the two religious leaders: the one full of charity and respect, the other completely lacking in either.
What occurred to me at the time was that this contrast would have consequences down the road. Certainly many Muslims were watching the event right along with the Christians. How many of them would be influenced by the pope’s charity and outreach? In spite of the severe penalties imposed on apostates in Muslim societies, I have seen a great upsurge of yearning among the people themselves for true human dignity and charity for all, even if it means becoming Christian.
Through initiatives such as this one by Pope John Paul II, Muslim society is becoming polarized: One side wants to respond, either in human friendship or through a sympathetic interest in the Christian way. The other has hardened in the wake of the imam’s venomous words to follow the path of hatred and bloodshed. I see the battle lines drawn up within Islam far more than between Islam and Christianity. As Jesus said in the gospel, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand” (Matthew 12:25–26). I believe that the hand of the Lord has done this.
David
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brian
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Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2007 06:32 pm |
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One thing Jimmy Akin reported was that kissing somthing is not really seen as respectful to Moslem culture, possibly even disrespectful, like showing the bottom of ones feet (unless that is another religion that has that custom). I do not think if this is true that the pope knew it. I think his intention was obviously to be respectful.
I am assuming that the moslems watching would also have assumed it was because they could see it from our perspective, but I wonder if any took it as offensive culturally?
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