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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 02:43 am |
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Parodyonlife wrote: point when it reaches a seperate thing altogethor.
Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 03:29 pm |
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At what point does it become something else. The anology doesnt work either. Because Mohammed made allah up if it was the same God he would say Yaweh but instead he made a seperate God to cause division.If i make a twin of myself it isnt me is it?
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Jackie
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 03:36 pm |
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| Is this akin to, you say toma'toe and I say tomato ??
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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Parodyonlife wrote: At what point does it become something else. The anology doesnt work either. Because Mohammed made allah up if it was the same God he would say Yaweh but instead he made a seperate God to cause division.If i make a twin of myself it isnt me is it?
Mohammed didn't speak Hebrew. Yahweh is a Hebrew word. We don't say Yahweh either except when we want to use the Hebrew name for God. The Spanish have a different word, and so do the Chinese and the Koreans and the Russians. Each language has its own word for "God". In Arabic, that word happens to be "Allah".
It's not just a made up name. In Arabic countries, "Allah" is used to mean God in Catholic churches as well.
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Rick Luquette
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 04:14 pm |
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It's what alla Stands for Rick we use the world devil and its the same most everywhere except what it means is different to christians and to satanists. Allah stands for what mohammed made it stand for which is a war God that despises women the highest rank a women can acheive is being one of the 72 virgins muslim warriors get when they go to heaven!!! What a great rank to achieve... He changed the definition of God.
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 01:38 am |
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Furthermore, this quote in the Bible proves Mohammed is not a prophet or anyone else that has works through God. It also says in the Bible, "Faith without works is dead." How many people did Mohammed heal or how many prophecies did he have? Nothing Mohammed has done will last forever because it has not been tied to the spiritual. Allah, simply as a name meaning 'God' is our God but Mohammed did not worship Allah. He worshipped his own imagining of a single god, not the God of Abraham and Christ (though he borrowed from the Jews and the Christians to craft his own god).
31The Jews (AP)picked up stones again to stone Him.
32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for (AQ)blasphemy; and because You, being a man, (AR)make Yourself out to be God."
34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in (AS)your (AT)Law, '(AU)I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36do you say of Him, whom the Father (AV)sanctified and (AW)sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, '(AX)I am the Son of God'?
37"(AY)If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe (AZ)the works, so that you may know and understand that (BA)the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
Last edited on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 01:44 am by Parodyonlife
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 02:55 am |
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Parodyonlife wrote: Furthermore, this quote in the Bible proves Mohammed is not a prophet or anyone else that has works through God.
I never said he was, John. Nor did I ever say that the Muslim view of God is valid. What I said was that there is only one God, as we profess in the first line of the Nicene Creed. No one can worship a "different god" because there is no different god. There is only one God.
Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have a view of God that is, in my opinion, just as skewed as the vision of God held by Muslims. Mormons believe that God once walked the earth as a human, and that each of them can become gods of their own planets. Jehovah's Witnesses to not believe that Jesus is the savior. Both groups dismiss the Trinity. David Koresh believed God had anointed him as the Messiah, and Jim Jones believed God commanded him to feed poisoned kool-aid to 900 of his followers in Guyana. There have no doubt been millions of people whose views of God were skewed, whether they called themselves Jews or Christians or Muslims or something else. That still doesn't mean they worship a different God because, quite simply, there is no other god to worship.
If I think President Gore is ending his second term in the White House, and if I walk up to the President of the United States and say, "Good evening, President Gore", that doesn't make Al Gore president. It makes me wrong.
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 01:33 pm |
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Rick, God has revealed himself fully through the Old Testament and the New Testament, through the person of Jesus Christ. Allah (the one Mohammed created) Is not our God. No matter if he is one god or not; theoretically, in human systems there could be any number of 'one true God,' but God said let there be no other gods before me. If we aren't following what he has revealed to us in the scriptures we are following a false God. Even if it has aspects of the true God, it is still not our God. If Allah ( Mohammed's god) is the true God, why don't we follow Mohammed's laws, because Allah has spoken directly to him as the God of Abraham, right? The Koran must be correct if Allah is also our God. And why did Allah also tell Mohammed to wipe out the Jew's--God's (Allah's) Chosen people? ;-)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 02:38 pm |
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John, I see no need to respond further because I really believe you and I are saying the same thing in different words, and struggling to make each other understand. To use my earlier analogy, I say that seeing "President Gore' means a faulty vision, while you say it is imagining a different president. They are functionally equivalent statements.
So let's put this topic to rest.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Sun Mar 9th, 2008 05:06 pm |
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Okay...
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danica
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 06:34 pm |
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Hello everyone. Great discussion.
I have a question though:
1. If both Muslims, Jews, abd Christians serve Yaweh, are we all saved?
If that is so, then why did Jesus have to die for our salvation? Why is he the only door to God the Father?
Please know, I'm not "attacking" anyone; I'm only asking in a general question. 
Hindus. Do they worship Yaweh? I have a Hindu fiend, and she saus I worship millions of true gods. She does not acknlowdge Yahweh. 
So I question further: by serving "God", does that mean I'm going to heaven? Not according to the Word.
What does the Catechism say about this?
THANK YOU!! 
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 08:33 pm |
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Hi Danica,
1. If both Muslims, Jews, and Christians serve Yaweh, are we all saved?
Asking whether entire groups of people are saved doesn't make sense in a Christian worldview, because salvation is an individual thing. God will judge each person, as to whether they are saved or not, based on their faith, their works, and what they knew and how they acted upon it (Romans 1-2).
But as to the sense in which we all worship the same God (in terms of belief in monotheism, see my paper on that topic.
If that is so, then why did Jesus have to die for our salvation? Why is he the only door to God the Father?
It's not so, but wheover is saved will be because of Jesus and the Catholic Church. And this can occur even if they had never heard of same. Someone in the steppes of central Asia in 2000 B.C. who had never heard of even the Old Testament, let alone the gospel, could be saved if he acted upon what he knew to be right in his conscience. Romans 2 is very clear about this. But the Calvinists would send all such persons to hell. That is a wicked doctrine. In Catholicism, each person is responsible for how they act upon what they know, and whether or not they accept God's free offer of grace for sanctification and eventual salvation.
Jesus is the only door to salvation because He is the redeemer of the human race by virtue of His incarnation and death on the cross on our behalf. He is the "way" that God the Father provided for anyone to be saved who will decide to accept His grace.
Please know, I'm not "attacking" anyone; I'm only asking in a general question.
No problem!
Hindus. Do they worship Yaweh?
No. Eastern religion doesn't really have the concept of a personal, transcendent God, though I understand that certain "hybrid" brands, like the Hare Krishnas, believe this more so than mainstream Hinduism or Buddhism.
I have a Hindu fiend, and she saus I worship millions of true gods. She does not acknlowdge Yahweh.
There you go. It's a very different belief-system.
So I question further: by serving "God", does that mean I'm going to heaven? Not according to the Word.
If we truly serve God we will do what He commands us to do, and that will be the way we can be saved, because we'll have faith in Him and accept (the very choice or decision entirely enabled by His grace) His grace for salvation.
What does the Catechism say about this?
Basically what I said, I think, but I'm too lazy to look it up, since I still feel rotten from this eternal cold that I have!
THANK YOU!!
You're most welcome.I bet you smile a lot in person, too. You seem like that type. Cheery, pleasant . . .
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danica
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 01:31 pm |
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You're a sweetheart, Dave!
I think I get what you're saying!! So, if they DON'T know about Jesus, ("How will they know, if nobody goes to tell them?" - Jesus), then they won't be judged for not accepting Jesus as their one and only Savior.
But, if they DID know, they would be judged for not accepting Him. Right?
I agree with that 100%! If that is what you meant.
Because if I reject Christ, then He will reject me before the Father. The majority of Muslims and Jews reject our Lord and savior (those who've heard of Him). They DO KNOW about Him, but choose to reject him; hence, they don't have the "reborn soul". I sound oh-so-Protesant right now! Eew!
But you get what I mean by saved.
But like you said, it's all still up to Our Lord in the end. *Agrees completely*
Q #2. Do Catholics tell Muslims/Jews about Jesus when doing missionary work? Or do they leave them out of the picture when it comes to that?
If I'm correct, they need salvation just as the Hindu or Budhist, etc., needs - right?
Again, I'm only asking, not attacking the Catholic faith in any way! I would never do that...it's my life. I just need my facts straight.
THANK YOU!!!
God bless you, Dave! I'm going to read your paper!
You;re work on the Faith is simply awesome!!! 
Dave Armstrong wrote: Hi Danica,
1. If both Muslims, Jews, and Christians serve Yaweh, are we all saved?
Asking whether entire groups of people are saved doesn't make sense in a Christian worldview, because salvation is an individual thing. God will judge each person, as to whether they are saved or not, based on their faith, their works, and what they knew and how they acted upon it (Romans 1-2).
But as to the sense in which we all worship the same God (in terms of belief in monotheism, see my paper on that topic.
If that is so, then why did Jesus have to die for our salvation? Why is he the only door to God the Father?
It's not so, but wheover is saved will be because of Jesus and the Catholic Church. And this can occur even if they had never heard of same. Someone in the steppes of central Asia in 2000 B.C. who had never heard of even the Old Testament, let alone the gospel, could be saved if he acted upon what he knew to be right in his conscience. Romans 2 is very clear about this. But the Calvinists would send all such persons to hell. That is a wicked doctrine. In Catholicism, each person is responsible for how they act upon what they know, and whether or not they accept God's free offer of grace for sanctification and eventual salvation.
Jesus is the only door to salvation because He is the redeemer of the human race by virtue of His incarnation and death on the cross on our behalf. He is the "way" that God the Father provided for anyone to be saved who will decide to accept His grace.
Please know, I'm not "attacking" anyone; I'm only asking in a general question.
No problem!
Hindus. Do they worship Yaweh?
No. Eastern religion doesn't really have the concept of a personal, transcendent God, though I understand that certain "hybrid" brands, like the Hare Krishnas, believe this more so than mainstream Hinduism or Buddhism.
I have a Hindu fiend, and she saus I worship millions of true gods. She does not acknlowdge Yahweh.
There you go. It's a very different belief-system.
So I question further: by serving "God", does that mean I'm going to heaven? Not according to the Word.
If we truly serve God we will do what He commands us to do, and that will be the way we can be saved, because we'll have faith in Him and accept (the very choice or decision entirely enabled by His grace) His grace for salvation.
What does the Catechism say about this?
Basically what I said, I think, but I'm too lazy to look it up, since I still feel rotten from this eternal cold that I have!
THANK YOU!!
You're most welcome.I bet you smile a lot in person, too. You seem like that type. Cheery, pleasant . . .
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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You're a sweetheart, Dave!
Well!!!
I think I get what you're saying!! So, if they DON'T know about Jesus, ("How will they know, if nobody goes to tell them?" - Jesus), then they won't be judged for not accepting Jesus as their one and only Savior.
This is what a straightforward reading of Romans 2 would imply, I think.
But, if they DID know, they would be judged for not accepting Him. Right?
I agree with that 100%! If that is what you meant.
Indeed. "To whom much is given, much is required." This is why Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees, because they knew better. They had all the resources, but chose self-righteousness and hyper-legalism. To those who don't know much but who are seeking, Jesus was always very compassionate and patient.
Because if I reject Christ, then He will reject me before the Father. The majority of Muslims and Jews reject our Lord and savior (those who've heard of Him). They DO KNOW about Him, but choose to reject him; hence, they don't have the "reborn soul". I sound oh-so-Protesant right now! Eew!
The key is in the meaning and full implications of "reject." There is "know" and there is "KNOW." What God goes by is what a person truly knows. Do they completely understand what it is that they "reject"? Many many times, they do not. Believe me, I know firsthand, after 27 years of debates with all kinds of people and belief-systems. Ignorance is always rampant. Only God knows people's hearts and what they really know and don't know. We do not. We can say that someone is objectively in error or sin, but subjectively it is a whole different ballgame. It's the same reasoning that the Church uses in distinguishing between mortal and venial sin. One has to have sufficiently reflected and to have had full knowledge of the matter to commit a mortal sin.
But you get what I mean by saved.
Even Protestants use the word in three senses, according to tense: past, present ongoing, and future (what's called "eschatological salvation"). Protestants (at least evangelicals) tend to mean the first. Catholics mean the second and third. But we also believe in regeneration at baptism and initial justification, and confirmation, so we accept a past tense aspect too.
But like you said, it's all still up to Our Lord in the end. *Agrees completely*
One could hardly claim otherwise!
Q #2. Do Catholics tell Muslims/Jews about Jesus when doing missionary work? Or do they leave them out of the picture when it comes to that?
They do some of that, but it is a very tricky business with Muslims, esp. in Muslim countries. Most of attempted evangelism probably occurs in the West.
If I'm correct, they need salvation just as the Hindu or Budhist, etc., needs - right?
Everybody does, of course. It's always better to know the gospel message and to encounter Jesus than not to. But this doesn't mean that those who have never heard or read are automatically damned. That is the mistake too many Protestants make. It's unbiblical and contrary to Romans 2 and other passages.
Again, I'm only asking, not attacking the Catholic faith in any way! I would never do that...it's my life. I just need my facts straight.
THANK YOU!!!
You're welcome! Thanks for the questions (and kind words).
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http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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danica
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Posted: Sun Apr 6th, 2008 07:26 pm |
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Thank you again, dave! You're a star.
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