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val4u
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 07:29 am |
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 Does the Catholic church consider that the God of Islam is the same God as the christian God?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 11:22 am |
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val4u wrote: Does the Catholic church consider that the God of Islam is the same God as the christian God?
The first line of the Nicene Creed says, "We believe in one God."
So the simple answer is yes, our God is the same God known in Islam as Allah. Since there is only one God, the same God has been known in the past as Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, and all of the other names that cultures have given to God since the beginning of time. There is only one God.
Having said that, the image of God portrayed by different cultures and religious has been quite different, and many of them (in Christian teaching) have been wrong. But that does not change the reality of God.
We do believe there are erroneous representations of God within Islam. For example, they do not recognize the divinity of Jesus. According to our Christian faith, that is clearly an error, but it does not change the reality of our Triune God.
A weak analogy would be to say there is only one me. My daughter knows me as a father, my wife knows me as a husband, my boss knows me as an employee, my church knows me as a minister. Someone who meets me when I am angry has a quite different picture of me than someone who meets me when I'm smiling. None of them change me.
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So yes, God is God, whether he is known as Allah or Jupiter or Ra or Yahweh, and no matter how distorted the belief of a particular faith may be.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 08:04 pm |
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I have written about this question:
Does the Catholic Church Equate Allah and Yahweh? (+ Discussion)
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 09:25 pm |
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The God the muslims worship is something ONE man created not a Christian God with the prophets the Judges and Jesus Christ. The Muslim God is one who belives in leing to decieve your enemys as a correct theology Revenge is an improtant part of their society and they beleive Christians are infedels and worship false Gods and sacrifice babys... So idk how allah can possibley be put beside the ever forgiving God Yaweh.
Theres my two cents.
Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2008 09:28 pm by Parodyonlife
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Hidden One
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 10:53 pm |
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The God the muslims worship is something ONE man created not a Christian God with the prophets the Judges and Jesus Christ. The Muslim God is one who belives in leing to decieve your enemys as a correct theology Revenge is an improtant part of their society and they beleive Christians are infedels and worship false Gods and sacrifice babys... So idk how allah can possibley be put beside the ever forgiving God Yaweh.
Because:
The first line of the Nicene Creed says, "We believe in one God."
...the image of God portrayed by different cultures and religious has been quite different, and many of them (in Christian teaching) have been wrong. But that does not change the reality of God.
God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So yes, God is God, whether he is known as Allah or Jupiter or Ra or Yahweh, and no matter how distorted the belief of a particular faith may be.
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DrDave
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 11:16 pm |
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val4u wrote: Does the Catholic church consider that the God of Islam is the same God as the christian God?
I think the disconnect that many find with this question resides in the question itself. The unstated assumption is that there could be a God of Islam that is not the Christian God.
As others have stated, from a Catholic perspective there is only "One True God". It follows then that if a muslim worships, he/she
a) worships the one true God.
b) worships a creature that they believe to be God.
c) worships a figment of their collective imagination that they believe to be God.
Given that for the most part they claim to worship the "One True God" and they further claim that that God is the "God of Abraham", both identifiers which coincide with the Catholic understanding of God, then I would suggest that it is likely that many muslims do indeed worship "our" God as Rick has suggested.
However I do acknowlege that many of the ways they identify "their" God are dichotomally opposed to how we understand God, so I allow for the possibility that some do not
Regards Doc
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JillD
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 02:10 am |
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This teaching is a real stumper for me....
You mean just because they only have one "god," that god is the same as our God?? As far as I can tell, that's the only thing our "gods" have in common - how many there are.
I need to let this one go because it makes not a lick of sense to me....
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Hidden One
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 02:24 am |
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They beleive there only is one God. We believe there only is one God. They worship "the one God", so do we. Therefore, our God and their God are the same God, no matter how wrong they are about who He is.
Last edited on Fri Feb 29th, 2008 02:25 am by Hidden One
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 02:59 am |
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JillD wrote: This teaching is a real stumper for me....
You mean just because they only have one "god," that god is the same as our God??
No. There God is the same as our God because there is only one God.
Think of it this way. America has only one president. I may think he's a saint and you may think he's a jerk, but he is the same person either way. Our beliefs, regardless of how wrong they may be, do not change George Bush.
There is only one God. We Christians see God in one way and the Muslims see God in a different way. We believe they are wrong, and they believe we are wrong. But neither our belief nor their belief changes God. God is God. We may believe God is loving and merciful or violent and vindictive, but neither changes God. God is God, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God does not change.
When I look up at the sky at night, I see little dots of light. Science tells me each point is a distant sun or galaxy. I may believe the earth is covered in black plastic and each dot is a pinhole. Whatever reality is, my belief does not change it, no matter how right or wrong I am. Some think the earth is round, and some think it is flat; some believe God created the universe in six days, and some believe God guided creation over billions of years, and some believe it is a giant cosmic accident. Our beliefs do not change reality.
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JillD
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 03:45 am |
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CajunRick wrote: So the simple answer is yes, our God is the same God known in Islam as Allah. Since there is only one God, the same God has been known in the past as Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, and all of the other names that cultures have given to God since the beginning of time. There is only one God. Wait... Zeus??? But that 'god' is from a pantheon of 'gods' and I thought you said that Hindus, for example, do not worship YHWH because they have multiple 'gods.' (Although my daughter, who is in a World Religions class, tells me that the Hindus worship one god who has many avatars. It even has sort of a trinity called the Great Triad: Vishnu, Shiva, and Brahma.)
Just because you call something 'god' does not make it a 'god,' per the golden calf. Was that a manifestation of YHWH? If not, why not, given your previous arguments? If so, then why did YHWH get so mad about it?
Sorry to be so stubborn. I understand what you're saying, but it seems like hand-waving to me. Just because we give something the appellation 'god' doesn't make it so. Or so it seems to me.
Jill
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 12:08 pm |
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JillD wrote: CajunRick wrote: So the simple answer is yes, our God is the same God known in Islam as Allah. Since there is only one God, the same God has been known in the past as Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, and all of the other names that cultures have given to God since the beginning of time. There is only one God. Wait... Zeus??? But that 'god' is from a pantheon of 'gods' and I thought you said that Hindus, for example, do not worship YHWH because they have multiple 'gods.'
I don't think I ever said that, at least not in those words. It is impossible to worship any god other than the one true God because there is no other God. Whatever false name I may use or distorted belief I may hold, I cannot worship a supreme being that does not exist. Therefore if I am going to worship any supreme being, it must be the one true God. I really don't want to get into a discussion of mythological beings, etc., because it's really not appropriate here. The Greeks and Romans and Buddhists and Hindus do not know YHWH, so they don't worship God under that name, but how can they worship any other god when there is no other god? (We can get into an argument of semantics here as to whether worshiping a 'golden calf' is actually worshiping God but that's not the point I'm trying to make. Of course it isn't properly worshiping God. But if I worship the being that created the universe, I am worshiping YHWH even if my worship is distorted.)
Small children have a very distorted view of their parents. If you ask a little girl, her daddy can fix anything, and her mother is the best cook in the whole wide world, tells the best stories, gives the best hugs, etc. A little boy is likely to think his dad can beat up anyone else's dad, and nobody can 'kiss it and make it better' like his mom. Their distorted view does not change their parent. The parent is the same regardless. Calling him "daddy" does not mean his name isn't "George", and thinking he's perfect doesn't mean he isn't really short, fat, bald, and clumsy.
God is God. I cannot change him. I cannot make a pantheon of gods miraculously appear. If I "worship" the god of the harvest, in reality the god of the harvest is God. If I "worship" the god of the river, in reality the god of the river is God. In my weakness or ignorance I assign different attributes of God to non-existent beings under different names (as did the Greeks and Romans), I can't be praying to what doesn't exist, so the goddess of beauty is in reality our one and only God.
If I look at the sun and you look at the sun, we are looking at the same sun. If you look through blue lenses, the color of the sun has not changed. If you look through a prism that divides the light of the sun into multiple images of different colors, it is still the same sun. It has not changed. Your view has become distorted, but the sun itself has not changed.
This was the original question:
Does the Catholic church consider that the God of Islam is the same God as the christian God?
And the answer to that question is still yes. We do not consider their understanding of God as the same as ours, but like the child who has a distorted view of his parent without changing the parent, their view of God does not change God. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
God existed before time began and will exist after time ends, unchanged and unchangeable. That is reality. And whatever distorted view someone may hold, God remains unchanged.
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 12:59 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: JillD wrote: This teaching is a real stumper for me....
You mean just because they only have one "god," that god is the same as our God??
No. There God is the same as our God because there is only one God.
Think of it this way. America has only one president. I may think he's a saint and you may think he's a jerk, but he is the same person either way. Our beliefs, regardless of how wrong they may be, do not change George Bush.
But two diffferent people elected them. 
Last edited on Fri Feb 29th, 2008 12:59 pm by Parodyonlife
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JillD
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 02:33 pm |
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Then, Rick, are there any 'false gods,' and, if not, how then would you define 'false gods'? And I'm not intending things like money, power, sex, etc, but 'gods' that are 'false gods,' a la the golden calf. Or are you saying that the golden calf may not have been a false god? And what did God mean when He said "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"? What 'gods' was He referring to? Did He mean those tangibles mentioned above? How do you know?
Believe me, I get your "President" and "Daddy" analogies. I understand what you're saying about how if someone is worshiping the god of beauty, he is worshiping God. But I'd still like to know what you think makes a 'false god' if not 'false gods.'
Or maybe this conversation is going to go nowhere. I've been tempted before each of my posts to drop it, but can't seem to.....
Jill
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 04:00 pm |
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It's a subtle discussion, and the Church makes these statements about Muslims in a very specific sense: acknowledging the truth that they do possess alongside the error. Ecumenical discussion often involves such situations of partial truth.
I think my paper that I linked to above explains it adequately, and is an attempt to synthesize what appears at first glance to be contradictory or nonsensical. It's too long to post, so I just made a link. But this issue, in any event, need not cause anyone any confusion or befuddlement.
Last edited on Fri Feb 29th, 2008 04:03 pm by Dave Armstrong
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Free
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 04:27 pm |
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I'm glad you are persisting, Jill. And I refer you to an excellent article at the Catholic Answers website called Muslims Worship the One True God published in This Rock magazine in Jan. 2003.
I know the first time I heard a Catholic say God and Allah are the same, I disagreed. How can God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, be the same as Allah, who is only understood as being Father?
Some of the dialogue on this web has helped me see that both reality and perception are involved in this discussion. The reality is that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The perception by Muslims is that God is only Father. They have a part of the truth, yet not the fullness of the truth of God's revelation of himself.
Even with this understanding, though, something rises up in me when I think of the lines in the Quran that say that anyone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God is condemned to hell. The article I mentioned addresses this emotional response of mine. The author, Brian Harrison, says that even though Allah is God, this does not mean that the Muslim worship of their perception of God is acceptable and pleasing to God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). My view is this: If God does not find it acceptable or pleasing, I don't have to either!
The article says that both Vatican Council II and Pope John Paul II taught that despite the Muslim disbelief in the Trinity, Islam is not idolatry -- that Allah cannot be equated with Baal, Zeus, Ashtaroth, Krishna and so forth. This author says that Islam is more akin to being a heresy.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church in paragraph 2113 cautions that idolatry "remains a constant temptation to faith," and points out the dangers of divinizing what is not God, whether it be demons or money or a host of other things. Then it mentions the many martyrs who died for not adoring "the Beast," refusing even to pretend to worship the false God. Certainly they did not say to themselves, well, our perception is that the real God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit will know we are really worshiping him, even if we pretend to worship this Roman Emperor. No, they died because they believed that to pretend such a thing would be a betrayal of their Lord Jesus Christ.
The Catechism also states in paragraph 2112 that the First Commandment "requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate other divinities than the one true God." In my own thinking, venerating God while denying the Son still seems close to worshiping a false God. I'm reconciled on this point, however, since the Church has said that Islam is not idolatry, and I am resolved to believe what the Church believes.
By the way, the word "allah" is the Arab word for God, so if we were to attend a mass at a Catholic Church where Arabic is the language used, we would be using the name Allah repeatedly, and worshiping him. Yikes! I think I'd better stay home.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 05:20 pm |
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JillD wrote: Then, Rick, are there any 'false gods,' and, if not, how then would you define 'false gods'? And I'm not intending things like money, power, sex, etc, but 'gods' that are 'false gods,' a la the golden calf. Or are you saying that the golden calf may not have been a false god? And what did God mean when He said "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"? What 'gods' was He referring to? Did He mean those tangibles mentioned above? How do you know?
If my mind is centered on a tangible reality like a statue, then I am worshiping a false god. If my mind is centered on a being greater than myself who created the universe, makes the sun rise and set, puts the stars in the sky and the ground under my feet, then I am worshiping the God who was and is and will always be. If I am using the calf as a representation of God in the belief that God is a calf, then my perception is skewed and my belief is wrong.
In reality there are no "false gods" because there is only one God. When I worship "things" rather than God (drugs, sex, money, etc.), I am actually putting myself in God's place, and that's horribly wrong.
In the commandment, God was speaking to a particular people at a particular time. They were surrounded by idol worshipers. He was telling them they didn't need an idol because they had the God who is. The Egyptians, Phoenicians, etc., literally worshiped the statue; there was no reality behind it. There is a considerable difference between the beliefs of Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims, and the ancient faiths which put their stock in statues. There is still only one God. If I worship a being greater than myself I am in fact worshiping God, but if I worship a material thing like a statue, then I am worshiping nothing.
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 09:32 pm |
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CajunRick wrote
If my mind is centered on a tangible reality like a statue, then I am worshiping a false god.
Last time i checked muslims turn to the east to pray to the dome of the rock or whatever. If their God was spiritual he would be everywhere and the very fact they believe that Mohammed is a more important prophet than JESUS!! THAN JESUS!!! my word...
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 09:47 pm |
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I've had some difficulty on this issue. However, to be honest I haven't done that much study on it. I do believe that just because someone is a monotheist he/she doesn't necessairily worship the same God as we do.
Also, I read somewhere that Mohammid originally took one of the moon gods of the nations before him and change it to Allah. The nations before worshipped many gods (polytheists) and he made this moon god the primary god. I may be all wet on this but can anyone shed light on this issue?
Rich
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 09:50 pm |
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Parodyonlife wrote: Last time i checked muslims turn to the east to pray to the dome of the rock or whatever. If their God was spiritual he would be everywhere and the very fact they believe that Mohammed is a more important prophet than JESUS!! THAN JESUS!!! my word...
The east, the direction of the rising sun, is traditional for Catholics and I believe Jews as well. All older Catholic churches have their altar arranged so that anyone facing the altar is facing east.
And yes, they do believe Mohammed is more important than Jesus because they do not recognize Jesus as Messiah. Christians also consider Jesus greater than Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, whom the Jews recognize as the greatest of the prophets.
Just because we respect their beliefs doesn't mean we think they're right.
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 12:59 pm |
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Tooshay. But what makes our God different is he is a mercyful God. Muslims believe killing Infidels is good if they wont convert. Women have to be covered up to the extent some of them pass out from heat exhaustion. Furthermor Anyone can say God has sent me a message in the night and i've ridden on a flaming griffon (like mohammed said) and God has told me i am to be the ONE most important prophet of all humanity follow me or die. Anyone can say that but Jesus proved it mohammed did not. Alla is a mental tool mohammed used to take over the middle east and asia. Since it says in the bible God gave us free will why would alla want to kill us if we dissobeyed him, or behead us if we believed in another "version" of him thats churched up by the infedel western culture? Allah IS mohammed if you think about it. He made himself the only person who could "talk with Alla" so he could control those who followed him by setting insane laws and enslaving races. Not my God and never will be my God.
John
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Hidden One
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 02:43 pm |
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Tooshay. But what makes our God different is he is a mercyful God.
That is not what makes our God different, that is what makes our conception of God different.
Tell me, if some stray Christian preacher suddenly decided that God was not merciful and started preaching, and, having founded a church, goes to there to worship every Sunday, is he worshipping a different God?
I'm fairly certain the answer isn't "yes".
Since it says in the bible God gave us free will why would alla want to kill us if we dissobeyed him, or behead us if we believed in another "version" of him thats churched up by the infedel western culture?
Calvinists (a heretical sect started by John Calvin) beleive we don't have Free Will. When did Presbyterians, reformed Church members, and a sizable Baptist fraction stop worshipping God?
Nobody's said in this thread that Catholcis ought to become Muslims, or that their conception of God and/or other religious beliefs are accurate. In fact, we've said they distinctly aren't. But they worship the God of Abraham*, and so do we.
*the God whom Abraham worshipped while on earth.
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Laughing Elf
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| First Name: | Rod | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, PCA, agnostic, Buddhist, Episcopalian, Methodist |
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 04:09 pm |
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Parodyonlife wrote: Muslims believe killing Infidels is good if they wont convert. Women have to be covered up to the extent some of them pass out from heat exhaustion.
John
Your point is interesting because it brings to mind the many various interpretations within a religion (like Islam or Christianity).
I know Muslims who do not for one minute believe that "killing Infidels is good if they wont convert" .
What we have here, and Martin E. Marty has said it better than I in his various tomes in "The Fundamentalism Project" is a classic bifurcation between fundamentalistic interpretation and the rest of the spectrum of interpretation. The Fundamentalist (i.e. The Taliban), within Islam, enforce abysmal rules and regulations upon people, just because they found them in the Koran. That would be like Christians starting in enforce the Old Testament "case law". [Yikes, I just trimmed the corner of my beard, I'm ripe for punishment! ]
Peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Parodyonlife
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Corning, New York USA |
| Posts: | 112 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | NEW CATHOLIC!!! W( ) ( )T!!! |
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 05:41 pm |
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Hidden one,
1st of all how many times do you think mohammed talked to God? He used the perception of a god the "Jews' God" and perverted it for his own use. If it is the "same God" then why is he telling mohammed to kill Christians? Which brought down a terrible time upon the Jews and brought Europe into full fledged war. So if he spoke with God then tell me why God would forcibly force others to convert to someone they already believe in? You said:
That is not what makes our God different, that is what makes our conception of God different.
That's semantics.
Tell me, if some stray Christian preacher suddenly decided that God was not merciful and started preaching, and, having founded a church, goes to there to worship every Sunday, is he worshipping a different God?
Yes, that is not written in the Old Testament (what the Jews and the Christians have in common) or anywhere else. It is that person's own twisted sense of God--not the God we worship. Anyone can make up imaginary friends. It's the miracles that happen by our God that proves his reality. By your reasoning there are millions of 'only Gods' in the world  . When there is only one tru | | |
