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brian
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 01:40 am |
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Occasionally someone (non-catholic) talks about the creed with me. I always get a little nervous when discussing if they should or should not say 'one holy, catholic, and apostolic church' because it can sound tough for them to accept what I have to say. They are used to the idea of church meaning all believers regardless of creed or denomination. I have a hard time explaining that this would not have been in the mind of those who wrote the creed. That a church can not be apostolic if it does not follow the teachings of the apostles. I try to remind them that we do believe all believers of Jesus are members of the church somehow, but there still is one visible church we are a part of and the creed does intend to affirm this. but I also know catholic simply means universal and is not always used to determine us specifically as the 'catholic church.'
So what exactly does the phrase mean, when was that creed written and can we prove the notion of a Catholic Church or by that name existed by then?
Also this book (a catholic book), said that Catholic was written with a capital 'c' in the Apostle's Creed, and a lowercase c'' in the Nicene Creed, therfore suggesting that the Apostle's Creed is talking about affirming the Catholic Church, and the Nicene just meaning universal...
Whatever the phrase is, I would believe that it is meant to be interpreted the same way by both Creeds. Is this able to be established?
Am I right for suggesting the meaning of the creed and understanding of the church was tht it was referring to a visible church with one faith and one source of authority and not a more abstract concept?
Last edited on Sat Apr 28th, 2007 01:54 am by brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 02:11 am |
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brian wrote: Am I right for suggesting the meaning of the creed and understanding of the church was tht it was referring to a visible church with one faith and one source of authority and not a more abstract concept?
The Catechism has a section called "The Church is Catholic" that begins at section 830.
To quote briefly from that section:
What does "catholic" mean?
830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation" which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:
All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God's will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one. . . . The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit. |
The next section is equally important:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." |
(Sorry the rest is in bold, but I couldn't get it to turn off.)
So those fully joined to the Catholic Church are those who are in "full communion" (which is why we call baptized Christians who join the Church "Candidates for Full Communion"). Other Christians are imperfectly joined, but still somehow part of the Catholic Church. The section continues to explain that even those who are not baptized are still somehow part of the People of God, and so still mysteriously part of the Catholic Church.
So the answer is that the Church is both the physical, visible Catholic Church and the mystical Body of Christ. (There's that both/and thing again.)
when was that creed written and can we prove the notion of a Catholic Church or by that name existed by then?
We know that the phrase "Catholic Church" was first mentioned by St. Ignatius of Antioch in or before the year 107 AD. To the best of my knowledge, we do not know when the Apostles' Creed was written. Legend has it that it was composed on Pentecost by the apostles themselves in the Upper Room, but there is no evidence to support that belief, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia. That article cites the earliest appearance of the complete Creed at about the year 390:
| A few years before this (c. 390), the letter addressed to Pope Siricius by the Council of Milan (Migne, P.L., XVI, 1213) supplies the earliest known instance of the combination Symbolum Apostolorum ("Creed of the Apostles") in these striking words: "If you credit not the teachings of the priests . . . let credit at least be given to the Symbol of the Apostles which the Roman Church always preserves and maintains inviolate." |
So apparently the earliest appearance of the term "Catholic Church" is around 107 AD, while the earliest appearance of the Apostles' Creed as an intact statement of faith is around 390 AD.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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wmschrader
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 02:22 am |
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In the first and fourth centuries there was no other Church than the Catholic Church. I think someone is looking to seperate the Catholic Church from early Church history. I also suspect both Creeds were written in Greek and probably used the same word. I doubt if capitalization was even around at the time the creeds were defined and documented
Catholic - Universal, or as Mike Cumbie the Catholic Evangelist puts it "on the whole, the same faith across the world and across time"
Here is more than you will ever want to know about the word Catholic
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm
New Advent is a great on online resource
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Bill
Glory be to God for all things
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Cindy
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 07:29 am |
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Hi Brian,
A good book on the topic is The Faith for Beginners: Understanding the Creeds by Stephen K. Ray and R. Dennis Walters. It's available from Catholic Answers.
The Faith For Beginners
Blessings,
Cindy
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"Where Peter is, there is the Church" -- St. Ambrose of Milan
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 10:57 am |
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wmschrader wrote: I doubt if capitalization was even around at the time the creeds were defined and documented
As best I can tell, the use of capital letters didn't become common until the invention of the printing press. The oldest existing copy of the Septuagint in Greek, the Codex Vaticanus, used only what we today would call capital letters with virtually no punctuation.
The New Testament from the Codex Vaticanus is available in PDF format here. It's big and it takes a while to download, but it shows how difficult it is to determine things like sentences, paragraph breaks, etc.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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