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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 01:47 am |
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howardduncan wrote: Rick wrote:
May I ask what it is about the Catholic Charismatic movement that you believe is a "return to paganism"?
From the website of Christ the King Catholic Church, Ann Arbor, Mi.
"Charismatic Prayer and The Mass: A charismatic style of prayer is common at Christ the King. People are free to raise their hands in prayer and during songs, many pray their own prayers audibly, some pray in tongues, etc.... We pray with expressive or charismatic prayer at monthly parish prayer meetings, at the beginning of parish meetings, and most especially during certain moments in the Holy Mass. These are some of the external markers of a charismatic parish."
This is certainly not typical, and it is not at all fair to judge the Church by the behavior in a single parish. As the paragraph you quoted states, this is a "charismatic parish". If it were a Polish parish, there would be certain Polish practices that might not be experienced elsewhere. If it were an Anglican Use parish, it would have its own practices as well.
All valid forms of expression are welcomed in the Catholic Church. Catholic means "universal" and there are wide variations in forms of acceptable worship from parish to parish, country to country, and Rite to Rite. Find the one that makes you comfortable and ignore the rest.
But I think you would find that the Charismatic movement within the Catholic Church is quite different from what you have experienced before. I am not charismatic and it is not my intention to defend the movement, but I have attended a few charismatic services in my life, and have found them in no way "pagan".
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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howardduncan
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 12:22 pm |
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Rick and David,
We are obviously very far apart in our view of this phenomenon. This first time since I have explored the Catholic faith in any depth that I have felt uneasiness (Yes, I do respect emotion). The lack of addressing the main point of my last post, the “test” issue, also makes me uneasy. If the problem is an inability to express my self properly, I apologize.
I am afraid that I must move on. Thank you.
____________________
HLD
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 01:11 pm |
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howardduncan wrote: Rick and David,
We are obviously very far apart in our view of this phenomenon. This first time since I have explored the Catholic faith in any depth that I have felt uneasiness (Yes, I do respect emotion). The lack of addressing the main point of my last post, the “test” issue, also makes me uneasy. If the problem is an inability to express my self properly, I apologize.
I am afraid that I must move on. Thank you.
I'm afraid I still don't understand why the presence of charismatics within the Catholic Church is so offensive to you. I'm sorry we couldn't help you to understand that there is truly a place for everyone within the Catholic Church, as long as one is willing to accept all others as members of the same faith. Those who choose to be exclusive (and ignore the gospel message in the processess) will not be comfortable in the Catholic Church.
I grew up in the 50's/60's when one of the biggest issues in the parishes in my area was racial exclusion. Some left the Church because they could not accept people with darker skin sitting in the same pews and listening to the same homily. It doesn't bother me whether the person down the pew from me has darker skin or prefers to pray in tongues. All are welcomed in the Catholic Church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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RCCSoldat
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| Location: | Pekin, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist/Non-denom/Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 03:31 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: howardduncan wrote: Rick and David,
We are obviously very far apart in our view of this phenomenon. This first time since I have explored the Catholic faith in any depth that I have felt uneasiness (Yes, I do respect emotion). The lack of addressing the main point of my last post, the “test” issue, also makes me uneasy. If the problem is an inability to express my self properly, I apologize.
I am afraid that I must move on. Thank you.
I'm afraid I still don't understand why the presence of charismatics within the Catholic Church is so offensive to you. I'm sorry we couldn't help you to understand that there is truly a place for everyone within the Catholic Church, as long as one is willing to accept all others as members of the same faith. Those who choose to be exclusive (and ignore the gospel message in the processess) will not be comfortable in the Catholic Church.
I grew up in the 50's/60's when one of the biggest issues in the parishes in my area was racial exclusion. Some left the Church because they could not accept people with darker skin sitting in the same pews and listening to the same homily. It doesn't bother me whether the person down the pew from me has darker skin or prefers to pray in tongues. All are welcomed in the Catholic Church.
As I am just entering the Church from a non-faith-based life I am a little hesitant about commenting to such an august and learned group but, I too am a little 'put off' by some of the charismatic character of some of they parishoners especially one that is part of the Rosary group that my wife and I belong. The first time I met this person I was asked to hold out my hand while he held his hand slightly above mine then asked me if I were able to feel the heat from his hand while he began to 'speak in tongues'. Of course I could feel the warmth from his hand - anyone could hold their hand above another and project heat - that does not make anyone a 'charismatic' nor does this 'speaking in tongues'(which I find offensive if not heretical). I do know that there are some at the higher levels of the Church who would like to see Pope Benedict 'reign-in' this movement to a certain degree.
I just did not want Mr. Duncun to think that all of us accept charismatics as an integral part of the Church. Maybe there are levels of 'charismatics' but from what I have seen, heard and read so far is unacceptable to me.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to comment and I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone. Peace be with you all.
Mark
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howardduncan
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 04:10 pm |
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Rick,
I'm afraid I still don't understand why the presence of charismatics within the Catholic Church is so offensive to you.
I will try to be clearer.
I do not object to the persons standing next to me in church. I still have great love for the African natives that I "prayed with" in pagan ceremonies. My feelings for them would not be different if I had wanted to join their religion. I have no ill feelings towards Pentecostals. The example of racial prejudice is not applicable. There were various reasons that caused the racial reaction; of fear of differences, belief that they didn’t deserve, a downright belief that they were not human. The solution was to reason with these prejudice people, socially ostracize, teach a new generation, and, use the force of law. All were done and very effectively.
Your objection to my reaction to the Charismatics has the same basis. You cannot understand why a person can’t accept another’s ways since it is obvious to you. This lack of understanding is your task. The expression “love the sinner, hate the sin” may express my feelings of Charismatics more correctly (please don’t misinterpret this to mean that I am trying to define sin).
You are speaking to a non-Catholic. I have not accepted the Pope’s or your bishop’s authority. Arguing from this basis will only seem an incomplete answer to me. What I do accept is the call to reason by your Pope. So far, I have found great truths coming from your church through the application of reason. I am willing to accept the real presence of the Eucharist because of reasoning out the words of Jesus and the Apostles.
The church I cited is, I believe, Al Kresta’s church because both the radio and the church are on Ave Maria drive in Ann Arbor . He is an influential spokesman for the Catholic faith. He speaks all over the world two hours a day. If I cannot cite one church and have a legitimate basis for discussion , then tell me how many and I will try and look them up. There are over 100 million Charismatic Catholics in the world over 250 countries in the stats I found. If ONE church is lead by ONE ordained priest who is NOT being questioned by bishop or pope, I have to assume consent. Why the consent? Why the consent during the priest scandal?
When you indicate that this one church is not representative of all of Catholicism, I have to agree because the stats show that about 10% of Catholics are charismatic. To go from probably less that 1% to this size means something is going on. It is condoned by all of the authority that Catholisism has in it’s power. Now tell me where is the truth in this one church’s one anonymous parishioner’s use of tongues (I am not questing the gift but I am questioning the claimer of the qift). This is an example, expand it to the larger church worldwide, don’t take it as a peculiar request to know who this person it.
If you have this image in your mind of the world being bombarded by charisms through your church and the Pentacostals and their derivatives. In the Popes mind, I think it was John Paul II, it is the increased activity of the Holy Spirit in our world. What I am asking (and being told to look to my own faults) without answer is WHY IS THIS TRUE? The same why that was answered when I asked, “Why is the Eucharist the real presence?” I do not take it as my job to prove that it isn't.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 07:17 pm |
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howardduncan wrote: I do not object to the persons standing next to me in church. I still have great love for the African natives that I "prayed with" in pagan ceremonies. My feelings for them would not be different if I had wanted to join their religion. I have no ill feelings towards Pentecostals. The example of racial prejudice is not applicable. There were various reasons that caused the racial reaction; of fear of differences, belief that they didn’t deserve, a downright belief that they were not human. The solution was to reason with these prejudice people, socially ostracize, teach a new generation, and, use the force of law. All were done and very effectively.
Your objection to my reaction to the Charismatics has the same basis. You cannot understand why a person can’t accept another’s ways since it is obvious to you. This lack of understanding is your task. The expression “love the sinner, hate the sin” may express my feelings of Charismatics more correctly (please don’t misinterpret this to mean that I am trying to define sin).
I have been Catholic for 56 years. In all that time, I have never once encountered a "charismatic parish". I don't doubt that they exist. When I have encountered charismatic prayer expressions, it has been because I chose to attend charismatic functions. I stood in the midst of a group of men who came to a conference with me, whom I know to be sincere and faithful Catholics, and they prayed in tongues. I thought no less of them for that, and they thought no less of me because I didn't.
As for the inclusiveness of the Church, it is not a matter of authority but of the gospel message. Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, he spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well. Paul wrote that there was no longer male or female, Jew or Greek, citizen or slave, but all are welcomed in the Kingdom of God. So yes, I consider the charismatics a vital part of the Church because everyone is a vital part of the Church. Perhaps my experience with charismatics is different from yours; mine comes from completely within the Catholic Church. My bishop is the former national director of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
I do believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the Catholic Church, as it has always been. I believe the elections of Popes John XXIII, and John Paul II particularly show the influence of the Holy Spirit in the Church, as none of them was considered even a remote possibility for election, and they changed the Church for the better (in my opinion).
I have heard of Pentecostal congregations with snakes and seizures and all manner of outrageous behavior. To the best of my knowledge, these types of shenanigans are not part of the Catholic Charismatic movement and they are not tolerated. Perhaps the basic problem here is that you are failing to separate legitimate prayer expression from the false, perhaps even demonic, behavior of other groups. By comparison, Catholic behavior is subdued. After all, we are in the presence of our Savior in the Eucharist!
As for the statistic that 10% of Catholics are charismatic, I find that an acceptable number worldwide, although your numbers do not quite match. You said 100 million charismatics, and there are 1.6 billion Catholics, so the actual percentage would be a little smaller.
However, I would think the majority of those are converts from Pentecostal faiths, or of Hispanic descent. Charismatic expressions are particularly acceptable in south and central America. I would think the percentage of charismatic Catholics in the United States and Canada, outside of the Hispanic community, is much smaller. A charismatic parish, such as the one you describe, is probably quite rare and outnumbered considerably by more traditional parishes.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 07:31 pm |
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howardduncan wrote: If you have this image in your mind of the world being bombarded by charisms through your church and the Pentacostals and their derivatives. In the Popes mind, I think it was John Paul II, it is the increased activity of the Holy Spirit in our world. What I am asking (and being told to look to my own faults) without answer is WHY IS THIS TRUE? The same why that was answered when I asked, “Why is the Eucharist the real presence?” I do not take it as my job to prove that it isn't.
By the way, one of the comments you made is that no one answered your last question in a previous post. I thought I would mention that I did not specifically answer this question because I truly don't understand the question.
Why is there increased activity by the Holy Spirit? In my opinion, because we need it so badly, both in the Church and in the world.
Why are charismatic parishes allowed to exist? For the same reason Polish parishes are allowed to exist. If a significant number of Catholics in a given area wish to express their faith in a certain way, whether it is in Vietnamese or in Latin or in charismatic expression or in Gregorian Chant, the bishop is allowed to create a "personal" parish especially for them. We have three personal parishes in my diocese: One is Vietnamese and two are African-American. Of course the parish must follow all of the Church's rules and doctrines, and they are not allowed to tinker with the mass without approval
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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howardduncan
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Posted: Sun Aug 19th, 2007 07:47 pm |
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Rick,
I still do no think we are communicating. Thank you. I will not respond again.
____________________
HLD
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Tue Aug 21st, 2007 05:15 am |
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Hello Mark
I wanted to say welcome to the forum if I've not said it already and also wanted to comment on your response here.
As I am just entering the Church from a non-faith-based life I am a little hesitant about commenting to such an august and learned group but, I too am a little 'put off' by some of the charismatic character of some of they parishoners especially one that is part of the Rosary group that my wife and I belong. The first time I met this person I was asked to hold out my hand while he held his hand slightly above mine then asked me if I were able to feel the heat from his hand while he began to 'speak in tongues'. Of course I could feel the warmth from his hand - anyone could hold their hand above another and project heat - that does not make anyone a 'charismatic' nor does this 'speaking in tongues'(which I find offensive if not heretical). I do know that there are some at the higher levels of the Church who would like to see Pope Benedict 'reign-in' this movement to a certain degree.
I really think that if this would of happened to me, that I would have been a bit uncomfortable with it too. I've fortuneately have not ran into anyone that does things like this. I have attended a few of our chairismatic prayer groups events and have never had any of them behave strange or do anything unusual at all.
I have heard of Pentecostal congregations with snakes and seizures and all manner of outrageous behavior.
This would very much alarm me and I would most likely have issues with this. If this is the kind of thing that others have a problem with, then I can understand that. But I've never heard of this going on in a catholic group.
The only thing I could even say that was different than any normal prayer group activity. Each person that would like to be prayed over for various reasons. They all will gather around the person and many of them will put their hands on your head shoulders or arms and pray over you. I heard a few pray in a manner that I guess you would consider tongues, but they did it very quietly and more to them selves. I was not alarmed by it, although I just don't think that is something like that would appeal to me personally and as of right now, I guess if it's a charism, I may have prayed that I would rather not have it, but I guess bottem line would be "thy will be done"
during their group meeting they enjoyed singing a few more modern songs and a gentleman played a guitar. But it was not anything wild. They talked about the sacrament of penance and how important it is in our faith life. and father heard confessions for the group. And then father had adoration for the whole group and every one just quietly prayed to themselves after opening song for the Lord. they had a few speakers that gave testimonies of their faith journey and shared some of their difficulties with us. We got together in small groups and were given topics on scripture and what different verses meant to us or how we understood them, they were just smaller groups for sharing basically.
So I guess I don't really for the most part understand the alarm in the charismatic groups. At our parish, unless you went to one of their events, you would never know any of them were any different than the rest of us.
Last night Mark, when I was doing my Sunday night scripture reading I was studying in 1 Cor and read in chapters 12 -14 and Saint Paul goes over speaking or praying in tongues pretty well and thought I might mention it to anyone interested in reading in scripture about it.
I just wanted to mention that and also Mark, please feel free to add to conversations any where you would like to join us, your welcome in what ever capacity that your comfortable participating. After all, They let me participate.
God Bless
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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RCCSoldat
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Posted: Tue Aug 21st, 2007 08:17 pm |
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Thanks for the very nice reply Betty.
Great scripture reference also. I especially like 1Co 14:9:
'Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.'
I'm more inclined to think that the person I spoke of earlier was 'talking to the air. '
Thanks again for the kind reply and I look forward to conversing with you all as my wife and I continue our 'journey home'. 
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 05:36 pm |
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RCCSoldat wrote: Great scripture reference also. I especially like 1Co 14:9:
'Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.'
Mark;
this is a very important passage to consider, thank you for adding it.
I was interested in another thread that a jewish gentleman had participated in and he found when he attended one of his charismatic prayer groups, that when another was praying in tongues, he was able to translate for the rest of the group. And his tranlating it seems to be in line with the rest of the verses from 13 -19. I just wanted to mention it, as I found it interesting. I think verse 18-19 actually sums the entire praying in tongues up though.
1 Cor 14; 18-19 I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Also, if your wife feels so inclined, Ask her to please come join us also!
God Bless you both on your journey of faith
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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RCCSoldat
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 08:06 pm |
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BettyBoopToo wrote: RCCSoldat wrote: Great scripture reference also. I especially like 1Co 14:9:
'Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.'
Mark;
this is a very important passage to consider, thank you for adding it.
I was interested in another thread that a jewish gentleman had participated in and he found when he attended one of his charismatic prayer groups, that when another was praying in tongues, he was able to translate for the rest of the group. And his tranlating it seems to be in line with the rest of the verses from 13 -19. I just wanted to mention it, as I found it interesting. I think verse 18-19 actually sums the entire praying in tongues up though.
1 Cor 14; 18-19 I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you, but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Also, if your wife feels so inclined, Ask her to please come join us also!
God Bless you both on your journey of faith
Betty
Thank you for the kind reply Betty.
As I am typing this my wife and I are getting ready to participate in the RCIA program this evening. But this time we are attending as RCIA Team members - we were candidates last year. Even though my wife is still waiting on 'The paperwork' the team asked us if we could be the Greeters for this 2007-08 session. What an honor! We are part of the St. Joseph parish(Pekin, IL) here in the Peoria Diocese.
What a journey this is and has been!
God bless you!
Mark and Margo
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 03:01 am |
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RCCSoldat wrote: Thank you for the kind reply Betty.
As I am typing this my wife and I are getting ready to participate in the RCIA program this evening. But this time we are attending as RCIA Team members - we were candidates last year. Even though my wife is still waiting on 'The paperwork' the team asked us if we could be the Greeters for this 2007-08 session. What an honor! We are part of the St. Joseph parish(Pekin, IL) here in the Peoria Diocese.
What a journey this is and has been!
God bless you!
Mark and Margo
Congrats on your invitation to participate in RCIA! You must be great if they have asked you to be the first people that the new folks meet as they come in the door.
I hope you both enjoy RCIA from the opposite side of the table!
Be sure that Margo knows she's invited to come out and visit on the forum too.
God Bless you both
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 07:51 pm |
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I would like to thank everyone for the kind welcome and help but I'm not going to be joining the Catholic Church and at this time I'm not sure if I'm going to stay a Christian. This is a update because I have not posted for some time.
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 10:40 pm |
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| If not Christian then what?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 10:42 pm |
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NotCatholic wrote:
I would like to thank everyone for the kind welcome and help but I'm not going to be joining the Catholic Church and at this time I'm not sure if I'm going to stay a Christian. This is a update because I have not posted for some time.
Thanks for dropping by. You’re welcome anytime you need to talk things over.
David
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mg57
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 11:33 pm |
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NotCatholic -
Before you go, wondered if you've tried two by Mortimer Adler, -
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2257
1. The Great Ideas
2. Truth In religion
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pam
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 11:38 pm |
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| Please always remember how very much God loves you. You will find peace and purpose in your life with Him.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 01:08 am |
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NotCatholic wrote: I would like to thank everyone for the kind welcome and help but I'm not going to be joining the Catholic Church and at this time I'm not sure if I'm going to stay a Christian. This is a update because I have not posted for some time.
NC
I just wanted to say that although your words sadden my heart for you and I pray that the Lord lead you to his church, that you will continue to seek him out.
Mine was a long and dusty difficult road for many years, some spent in belief, others spent in contemplation & frustration of Gods very existance. At times I was filled with frustration and confusion and at other times I wanted to have faith and just believe but could hardly convince my heart and mind to work or believe together.
I hope and pray that if you ever want to come back to ask more questions or even share your feelings that you feel free to do so.
God Bless you on your journey
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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NotCatholic
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| Joined: | Thu Jul 5th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 79 |
| First Name: | NotCatholic | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Pentecostal,none |
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Posted: Fri Sep 28th, 2007 09:51 pm |
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I just wanted to say that although your words sadden my heart for you and I pray that the Lord lead you to his church, that you will continue to seek him out.
Mine was a long and dusty difficult road for many years, some spent in belief, others spent in contemplation & frustration of Gods very existance. At times I was filled with frustration and confusion and at other times I wanted to have faith and just believe but could hardly convince my heart and mind to work or believe together.
I hope and pray that if you ever want to come back to ask more questions or even share your feelings that you feel free to do so.
God Bless you on your journey
Betty
Thank you betty for the kind words but I no longer believe in Christianity. I still believe in God for sure I'm not sure about Jesus. I can't get into why I no longer believe in Christianity because I respect the forums and the people who run the forums every one has been very nice to me here.
God bless!
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1212 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Sep 28th, 2007 11:42 pm |
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| Dear NotCatholic, I am sorry you have become disheartened with Christianity. I would recommend some books to help, but you have probably already tried that. I would recommend studying the lives of some of the saints, and talking with a kindly priest who could give you direction. Most of all I would recommend prayer inside of a sanctuary, in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Ask for the grace of belief. Ask for just a little spark of a flame of assurance. Ask again. Jesus will not turn away from someone who is sincerely asking for a relationship with Him. I wish you well whatever you do, please keep in touch with us. God bless
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NotCatholic
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| Joined: | Thu Jul 5th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 79 |
| First Name: | NotCatholic | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Pentecostal,none |
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Posted: Mon Oct 1st, 2007 11:54 am |
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I would recommend studying the lives of some of the saints, and talking with a kindly priest who could give you direction. Most of all I would recommend prayer inside of a sanctuary, in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Ask for the grace of belief. Ask for just a little spark of a flame of assurance. Ask again. Jesus will not turn away from someone who is sincerely asking for a relationship with Him. I wish you well whatever you do, please keep in touch with us. God bless
Credo thanks for trying to help but I'm 100% sure I'm done with all Christianity so seeing a priest would just be a waste of my time and his.
God bless
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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