 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
marielena
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jul 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | El Paso, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Maria Elena/Nena/MaryHelen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic; belong to St. Raphael Church in El Paso, ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 05:03 pm |
|
As a cradle Catholic, I've always been informed about and love my faith, thanks to my faithful Catholic parents. I am at present confronted with a "new" kind of issue.
A fallen-away Catholic, who was never very well catechized, claims that "church" was not the original meaning used in the Greek New Testament. He states that in the Catholic Encyclopedia, the term “church” came to signify the same as “ecclesia” after the third century. This appears after the founding of the Catholic Church by de facto First Pope, Emperor Constantine I. The religious organization that he founded in the 300s used the phrase kuriakê oikia (the lord’s house) to refer to their place of worship. But Constantine was a pagan, despite popular belief otherwise. All the way to his death, Constantine remained a worshipper of the lord Mithra, the sun-god and he wanted people to worship Mithra. One of Constantine's last acts was to uphold the rights of the priests of Mithra. Constantine was indeed a pagan up until his death but promoted tolerance for all religions through a universal church in which he also sought to join church and state together as one.
I suspect deeper issues than the etymology of "church." Do you have any recommendations re: a reliable, honest, non-Catholic source which traces the Church to Jesus Christ? Or, at least, that shows the church did exist as church from the time of Jesus and the Apostles, rather than being founded by the pagan Constantine as a house to worship Mithra.
Many thanks!
____________________
marielena
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 09:13 pm |
|
marielena wrote: I suspect deeper issues than the etymology of "church." Do you have any recommendations re: a reliable, honest, non-Catholic source which traces the Church to Jesus Christ? Or, at least, that shows the church did exist as church from the time of Jesus and the Apostles, rather than being founded by the pagan Constantine as a house to worship Mithra.
You will find that no matter how thoroughly you can prove that the structure of the Catholic Church and the use of the term predates Constantine, your friend will discount the evidence.
According to New Advent, the term "Catholic Church" was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch around the year 110 A.D., when he wrote "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the Catholic Church."
There are numerous examples of bishops of the particular Churches appealing to the authority of first, the Church at Jerusalem (recorded in Acts), and later to the bishop of the Church founded by Peter and Paul at Rome. There are numerous referenfecs in the writings of the Early Church Fathers that predate Constantine. Catholic Answers has many articles that include quotes from the Fathers on the Church and the primacy of the bishop of Rome.
These are Catholic sources, but your friend is certainly welcomed to verify them anywhere he would like. One such source is IntraText which includes the writings of the Fathers in a hypertext format.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
BodRod
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 09:39 pm |
|
I think there are people who have no interest in finding and learning truth. They remind me of the humorous phrase that went around several years ago that went, "My mind is made up! Don't confuse me with facts!" These kinds of people remind me of a couple of verses in 2 Tim. 4 where it talks about some people will prefer to turn away from truth and will follow fables. It is a matter of personal choice rather than guidance by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, there are those who put up quite a fuss as they struggle against the guidance of the Holy Spirit on their way to the truth. We had one of those in our last RCIA group. Two years ago we had the daughter in the group and as the daughter told it, going home after RCIA was something akin to a living hell. However, the mother was in our RCIA group last year and was accepted into the Church at Easter.
____________________
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 10:18 pm |
|
what about evidence that Constantine's conversion was legit. Because I know people argue about that, but I believe he is a saint of the church. At least in the Orthodox Church he is. I think that the church would be considered infalolible when decalring someone a saint? Is this correct? Meaning that if we declare someone a saint they must be in heaven and a true Christian while on earth? Or are there examples where we got it wrong because evidence turned up later that we did not know upon canonization of a saint?
Brian
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 11:04 pm |
|
brian wrote: what about evidence that Constantine's conversion was legit. Because I know people argue about that, but I believe he is a saint of the church. At least in the Orthodox Church he is.
There are several saints named Constantine, but none were the Roman emperor in question. I could find no record of the Emperor Constantine being considered a saint by either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.
I think that the church would be considered infalolible when decalring someone a saint? Is this correct? Meaning that if we declare someone a saint they must be in heaven and a true Christian while on earth? Or are there examples where we got it wrong because evidence turned up later that we did not know upon canonization of a saint?
The process of canonization didn't begin until somewhere around the 800's. Before that time, people were considered saints by popular acclamation in their own dioceses, and devotions and recognition gradually spread from there.
There is no record of a saint ever being "de-canonized" but there are some doubts as to whether some of the early people recognized as saints ever really existed. For example, St. Christopher is a legendary figure who according to legend carried the Christ child across a river, but there is no real evidence that it ever happened. It is believed that the person we know as St. Christopher was actually Offero, a third-century martyr. You can read about him at the Patron Saint's Index. His feast is still celebrated, but it is no longer on the calendar of the universal Church.
Yes, we would consider the canonization of a saint as an infallible act, but those who claim the Church was founded by Constantine to further pagan worship would certain not put any faith in the Church's designation.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
bjbouwer
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 50 |
| First Name: | Bonnie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian Scientist, pinball Christian, RCC in 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 11:42 pm |
|
My question would be: did Constantine take over and ruin the True Church established by God, or did His True Church quietly continue on in spite of changes introduced by Constantine?
If we believe the Gospels, then we know the hordes of hell can't ruin The Church established by Jesus Christ.
____________________
Bonnie in WI
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 03:24 am |
|
I am pretty sure he is a saint of the Orthodox Church. His feast day is shared with his mother on May 21. There are many churches named after them. There is one by my house named Ss. Helen and Constantine. Helen is his mother who had some influenc on his conversion I think? There is also a story of her searching for the true cross somehow and miracles being attributed to finding it or parts of it?
I see Helena is a saint of the Catholic Church http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07202b.htm but it does not say according to the same site that Constantine is or is not. Maybe he is not. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm
As to the question about the church and it changing things, we can establish most all of our esential beliefs as having existed before Constantine came into the picture. So the claim mthat he changed or corrupted anything is not valid.
|
|
|
marielena
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jul 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | El Paso, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Maria Elena/Nena/MaryHelen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic; belong to St. Raphael Church in El Paso, ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 03:48 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote:
marielena wrote: I suspect deeper issues than the etymology of "church." Do you have any recommendations re: a reliable, honest, non-Catholic source which traces the Church to Jesus Christ? Or, at least, that shows the church did exist as church from the time of Jesus and the Apostles, rather than being founded by the pagan Constantine as a house to worship Mithra.
You will find that no matter how thoroughly you can prove that the structure of the Catholic Church and the use of the term predates Constantine, your friend will discount the evidence.
According to New Advent, the term "Catholic Church" was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch around the year 110 A.D., when he wrote "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the Catholic Church."
There are numerous examples of bishops of the particular Churches appealing to the authority of first, the Church at Jerusalem (recorded in Acts), and later to the bishop of the Church founded by Peter and Paul at Rome. There are numerous referenfecs in the writings of the Early Church Fathers that predate Constantine. Catholic Answers has many articles that include quotes from the Fathers on the Church and the primacy of the bishop of Rome.
These are Catholic sources, but your friend is certainly welcomed to verify them anywhere he would like. One such source is IntraText which includes the writings of the Fathers in a hypertext format.
Thank you for the wonderful sources you provided to show the Church predates Constantine. As you say, sadly, my friend may discount the evidence. I will try anyway, by presenting these sources to him. Please, if you and all who read this message are able to pray for him, that the Holy Spirit soften his heart and remove the scales from his eyes, he and all of us will be winners! He is a dear one to all my family.
Many thanks, and God bless you for your help.
____________________
marielena
|
|
|
marielena
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jul 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | El Paso, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Maria Elena/Nena/MaryHelen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic; belong to St. Raphael Church in El Paso, ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 03:53 pm |
|
"My mind is made up! Don't confuse me with facts!" These kinds of people remind me of a couple of verses in 2 Tim. 4 where it talks about some people will prefer to turn away from truth and will follow fables. It is a matter of personal choice rather than guidance by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, there are those who put up quite a fuss as they struggle against the guidance of the Holy Spirit on their way to the truth.
Seems to me they struggle with the truth because it would cost them some kind of giving up of self. This person left the Church and is living wih his "future wife." That may be his way to justify his actions: deny the Church which says this is a sin...
thanks!
____________________
marielena
|
|
|
marielena
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jul 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | El Paso, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Maria Elena/Nena/MaryHelen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic; belong to St. Raphael Church in El Paso, ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 04:30 pm |
|
brian wrote: what about evidence that Constantine's conversion was legit.
CajunRick wrote:
There are several saints named Constantine, but none were the Roman emperor in question. I could find no record of the Emperor Constantine being considered a saint by either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.
I've never heard of Constantine being a saint, but is there evidence that he did convert to the Catholic Church?
____________________
marielena
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 05:10 pm |
|
marielena wrote:
A fallen-away Catholic, who was never very well catechized, claims that "church" was not the original meaning used in the Greek New Testament. He states that in the Catholic Encyclopedia, the term “church” came to signify the same as “ecclesia” after the third century. This appears after the founding of the Catholic Church by de facto First Pope, Emperor Constantine I. The religious organization that he founded in the 300s used the phrase kuriakê oikia (the lord’s house) to refer to their place of worship. But Constantine was a pagan, despite popular belief otherwise. All the way to his death, Constantine remained a worshipper of the lord Mithra, the sun-god and he wanted people to worship Mithra. One of Constantine's last acts was to uphold the rights of the priests of Mithra. Constantine was indeed a pagan up until his death but promoted tolerance for all religions through a universal church in which he also sought to join church and state together as one.
I suspect deeper issues than the etymology of "church." Do you have any recommendations re: a reliable, honest, non-Catholic source which traces the Church to Jesus Christ? Or, at least, that shows the church did exist as church from the time of Jesus and the Apostles, rather than being founded by the pagan Constantine as a house to worship Mithra.
Many thanks!
Marielena
I wanted to say welcome to the forum, we're very happy to have you!
I wish I had another source that is not Catholic to refute your friends thoughts on Constantine. I do think that you could easily find the information in the ECF's writings and some possible history of the church. I've heard others try and use constantine in many ways to try to refute the church and someone versed in history can normally easily refute any of these false claims. I'm just not that good at history (But I'm working on it).
I think there are people who have no interest in finding and learning truth. They remind me of the humorous phrase that went around several years ago that went, "My mind is made up! Don't confuse me with facts!" These kinds of people remind me of a couple of verses in 2 Tim. 4 where it talks about some people will prefer to turn away from truth and will follow fables. It is a matter of personal choice rather than guidance by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, there are those who put up quite a fuss as they struggle against the guidance of the Holy Spirit on their way to the truth. We had one of those in our last RCIA group. Two years ago we had the daughter in the group and as the daughter told it, going home after RCIA was something akin to a living hell. However, the mother was in our RCIA group last year and was accepted into the Church at Easter.
I must agree with Criff on this point. It really does seem that some how folks that have just made their mind up will not listen to reason what so ever. You can give them all the evidence and they will just refuse to take an honest look at very clear and resonable facts.
I will pray for your friend and you also; that the HS lead you to the evidence that will open his eyes and heart to listen to you.
God Bless! and again, Welcome to the Forum
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 09:42 pm |
|
marielena wrote: Many thanks!
Thank you!
I'm afraid I neglected to notice that you are a new user on our forum. We're happy to have you here with us. Please feel free to participate in all our discussions. There aren't many "cradle Catholics" around here but a few of us feel called to share our faith.
Once again, welcome to the Coming Home Network. We're glad to have you here with us.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 01:00 am |
|
marielena wrote: brian wrote: what about evidence that Constantine's conversion was legit.
CajunRick wrote:
There are several saints named Constantine, but none were the Roman emperor in question. I could find no record of the Emperor Constantine being considered a saint by either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.
I've never heard of Constantine being a saint, but is there evidence that he did convert to the Catholic Church?
He did indeed convert to the Catholic Church, remaining a catachumen most of his Christian life and waiting till death to finally accept baptism. Keep in mind there only was the Catholic Church and heretical sects at that point. The article I linked above from Catholic Encyclopedia has some info. Some still debate his sincerity. I do not know enough to tell you what much. I just hope for the best.
|
|
|
Current time is 10:29 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
