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howardduncan
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 7th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Howard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born - Episcopal - drifted - Catholic? |
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 06:16 pm |
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I have been reading some of the posts to these topics and impressed with the thoughtfulness of the replies which encourages me to ask for comments to my own dilemma. I ask for my wife also, but, am more used to writing in the first person.
I have awakened from a long sleep. I must have dozed off during an Episcopal church service around 1958! I have awakened into a strange world. Women don’t cover their heads in church, the Mass is in English or Spanish and Women and Homosexuals seem to be allowed to try and dominate the churches. My wife and I revisited a little chapel in a national park where we had re-said our vows 20 years earlier and the minister asked us during a weekday night service if we wanted him to speak in tongues! I am thinking I was better off without the “word of God” as presented by the people of modern era.
I was baptized, confirmed, and an alter boy as a pre-teen, then, became angry at the church experience, but never at God, for many years. I have realized that I have sadly lacked proper teaching from Jesus that would have made my life more successful, although, those who know me would describe me as a good person. My awakening has gone from a new interest inspired by Robert H. Schuller on TV then to EWTN and a deep belief that the Catholic faith is true.
My (our) dilemma is that while Catholic dogma fills needs almost fully, Catholic practice causes fear in my heart! We listen to EWTN radio and T.V. across the spectrum of topics. What seems to always creep into a significant portion of the call-in questions and comments is the disappointment in priests and bishops as they fail to be faithful to the teachings of the church.
Examples are:
1. The priest scandal (with myself it is the failure of bishops to protect their flock).
2. The lack of proper liturgy at Mass (not only Latin vs vernacular).
3. The failure of American bishops and priests to respond forcefully to Catholics taking part in abortion (considering it affects a commandment from God, not a tradition).
4. A friend of mine has returned to the Catholic church after many years and a recent divorce telling me he takes communion and has not had a confession (he does not even know where a confessional is in the church) even though the priest knows his story.
5. Lack of respect shown by casual dress style. An appearance in court demands more.
6. The discussion here about “Mantilla” leaves me without direction.
While human fault will explain all of the above, an explanation without action is acceptance. A basis in law is that silence is consent. My heart sinks when I ponder the rejection Christ must feel when he is presented with such a poor leadership in his Church. If present day priests had to fear crucifixion maybe they would be more serious about their role. How am I to worship properly if I am lead astray by the parish. This is the same lack of oversight during the priest scandal years. Was this the last time we were meant to hear from a bishop, “Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you……..”( 1 Corr 1:10).
There are other impediments to our becoming Catholic (such as my wife’s previous marriages) but none as grave as the above and none disagree with dogma.
The sheep are waiting to be fed.
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HLD
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 07:50 pm |
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| Hello Howard, welcome to the forum! Well, that is a powerful statement you have made, and I have to say I agree with you. It is often said that the church is made up of humans who err and that we shouldn't judge the church by the error of those people. They are not following the teachings of the church. That is true, but then, they (the clergy) are the most visible presence of the church. They represent the church. It seems that we have to look carefully for a parish that is true to liturgy and practice. I have been blessed that the first one I attended was such a parish. But many people have made the same comments you have, and they may not have options as to what parish to attend. The Lord has seen the church through so many obstacles, persecutions, etc. I know it will prevail, but as you say, the sheep must be fed or they will die. We look forward to your comments. God bless
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 08:22 pm |
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Welcome, Howard, to our humble abode. We’ll do our best to help you through the rough spots in the road to Rome.
Homosexuals seem to be allowed to try and dominate the churches.
These and others have attempted to take over any and all positions of power in the world, and even in the Church, since I was a teenager (I’m about your age). It comes of a lack of faith in the old truths. But God is not mocked; his truth is eternal, and these people live but a few short years.
On the other hand, contemplating your history, it seems that the existence of anti-Christians is not so telling as the existence of bad Christians. You drifted off because you “became angry at the church experience, but never at God.” I can understand your feeling there, because after I entered the Catholic Church I had the same experiences to contend with. The hippie mindset had entered the sanctuary.
The priest scandal (with myself it is the failure of bishops to protect their flock).
I think you have hit on the important point here: there will always be a few bad apples in the barrel, but the rotten ones should never be those on the top. Unfortunately, corruption of the apples on top has happened a number of times throughout history. If you read passages like Jeremiah 23, you can understand that it has been part of the history of the People of God since ancient times. As Jeremiah did, we can only mourn with the land.
How did it happen? Well, bishops are ordained from the ranks of priests. If the priesthood was full of the “takeover” mentality, it stands to reason that the bishops would be, too. Fortunately, this generation is dying out. You and I are moving into old age ourselves, and we may never see the full harvest and the new planting, but others will. This is a project we all need to support.
The lack of proper liturgy at Mass (not only Latin vs vernacular).
This is part of the problem created by the attempted “takeover” mentioned at the outset. There are many, many Catholics who hold their nose and go anyway. Fortunately, the Vatican has been working very hard on this problem, and not too many years hence we should begin to see the results.
We have already witnessed a certain amount of housecleaning (you may not be aware of how bad things were, say, 20 or 30 years ago), and a new translation of the English liturgy, more faithful to the original Latin, is under way.
The failure of American bishops and priests to respond forcefully to Catholics taking part in abortion (considering it affects a commandment from God, not a tradition).
Taking part in an abortion in any primary capacity means automatic excommunication. I don’t know how much more forceful the bishops can be. There’s a twofold problem here that perhaps you are not aware of: First, until just a few years ago the pro-abortion lobby had the upper hand. Silencing the uproar against the Catholic position was impossible. (We’ve made some progress since then, however — reason to rejoice.) Second, the primary concern of the Church is to save souls, not to punish the guilty, so even though the penalty of excommunication is in place, bishops and priests are quick to lift it if there is any sign of repentance.
What I think bothers you most about the current situation is that there is still precious little coming from the pulpit concerning this grave sin. Not all priests are moral theologians, that they should be talking about sin (my own pastor happens to be one, and he talks about sin a lot), and not all have the stomach to speak of tiny bodies ripped asunder by the sins of their elders.
In the more pro-abortion sections of the country, some priests are simply avoiding the issue so as not to drive away the congregation. Better, they think, to get them to accept part of the gospel than to speak to empty pews. I don’t know how valid this is; did not St. Paul urge St. Timothy to “preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry” (2 Timothy 4:2–5)?
So again, I must agree. What do you suggest we (as opposed to the priests and bishops) do?
A friend of mine has returned to the Catholic church after many years and a recent divorce telling me he takes communion and has not had a confession (he does not even know where a confessional is in the church) even though the priest knows his story.
There may be a misconception at work here. The Catholic Church does not prohibit divorce. It does not recognize civil divorce as actually terminating a valid, sacramental marriage, but it does not see divorce in itself as sinful.
What is prohibited by the gospel is remarriage, not the divorce that precedes it. So if your friend has not remarried, he has not sinned and is eligible to receive communion. If he ignores the confessional for his other sins (and we all commit them), too bad for him, but on this one point he may be all right.
Lack of respect shown by casual dress style. An appearance in court demands more.
This has been spoken to a number of times on the forum. I think most Christians (across the board denominationally) are agreed that the whole of western culture has drifted too far in this direction. Some have suggested reform, but in most cases cowardice has thwarted any real movement toward more modesty and formality in dress.
The discussion here about “Mantilla” leaves me without direction.
Lacking any guidance from the Church on this matter, there will likely be nothing done except by a few hardy individualists. Even most of those who would like to see the custom return are facing a massive lack of cooperation. Again, cowardice reigns.
A basis in law is that silence is consent.
But the Church of God is not a court of law. Its realm is more properly the human heart. A certain amount of incompetence and corruption will be evident even in the most fervent of epochs. What is a sheep to do?
If present day priests had to fear crucifixion maybe they would be more serious about their role.
Evidently you are unaware of the power of public opinion. After the scandal broke a few years ago, anti-Catholic rhetoric was cranked into high gear, and the country’s legal system was bent to a shape that made it possible for an accused priest to be railroaded into retirement even if he was innocent. Right now, every priest in the country has this fear of someone’s false, vindictive accusation hanging over him and his career. You had better believe they are more serious about their role as priests.
How am I to worship properly if I am led astray by the parish?
Faced with this, most orthodox Catholics just move to a different parish. It’s been legal to do so since the Second Vatican Council, and I’ve taken advantage of it several times when a change of leadership made it necessary.
Was this the last time we were meant to hear from a bishop, “Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you….”
Actually, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been preaching this forcefully since before the troubles began. Recall that two of them are in line for canonization as saints. They did not let us down.
The people that let us down were the “fifth column” guerrilleros that moved into positions of power in the opportunity occasioned by the Second Vatican Council. They co-opted the council for their own purposes, and the Church has been suffering ever since. But over the past 20 years there have been many improvements, and we must at least recognize these.
Blessings upon you, Howard, for your concerns.
DavidLast edited on Sun Aug 12th, 2007 11:22 pm by David W. Emery
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 08:46 pm |
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howardduncan wrote: I have awakened from a long sleep.
Howard, David has done an excellent job of taking your message point by point, so I will restrict myself to welcoming you to the Coming Home Network. We are happy to have you here with us.
Yesterday I posted an article in the "Religion in the News" forum on a former Episcopal bishop who claims that the "Anglican Catholic" movement is dead, co-opted by women and homosexuals in the church.
The same thing has not happened in the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit would not permit it. There has been a certain amount of drift since Vatican II, but corrections are in place and are gradually taking hold. The Church never hurries. Those who do rush things in the name of the Church cause the kind of chaos that resulted after Vatican II.
Historically, it takes 50 years for the Church to assimilate the results of a major council, and we are right on track. It has been 42 years since Vatican II ended, and the last stages of settlement are in place. They need to percolate down to the local churches. It is an exciting time to be a Catholic!
We promise to assist you on your faith journey in any way we can, and wherever it might lead you. Meanwhile, we welcome you again to the Coming Home Network.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 09:51 pm |
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| It seems to me that Martin Luther had some similar complaints about church practices, including some rather pointed comments about Rome. However, the Church is still here and the Gospel is still the Gospel. I think our focus should be on; 1. seeing that we behave as Christians and 2. the spreading the Gospel. There are problems in the Church AND there will be problems in the future as well since humans are running things. However, our charge to spread the Gospel and baptize people has never changed since Christ told Peter to start the Christian era.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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JasPax
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 09:55 pm |
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Hello Howard,
I could have written your post a few years ago. My view of the Catholic Church was colored by the secular media. I knew the Episcopal Church was coming apart at the seams, and from the things I "heard," I thought the CC was following suit.
Believe me, things look a lot better on the inside. Some of the problems you mentioned; sloppy dress, etc. are irritants, but they are superficial. And I think the leadership problems have improved greatly. There will be no "convention" to change the CC's teaching on marriage and sexuality. The doctrinal understandings of the church aren't going to change. The sacraments are valid.
I invite you to continue your study, using Catholic sources such as the Catechism.
Best Regards,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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howardduncan
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 11:34 pm |
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Thank you all for your replies.
David, I mislead you about my friend. His divorce is something I have been trying to get him through and it is up most in my mind. He was previously married to another Catholic, and then divorced after self admitted adultery. Remarried out of the church and now divorced again. Enough to have to confess before partaking of the Eucharist I believe. This is an Hispanic cradle Catholic from the 60's living in the California central valley to whom I am explaining the Trinity, how to find a chapter and verse in the bible, the apostolic authority of the church, and, the fact that Jesus and Christ are not two separate people! Where was his priest?
Regarding abortion. Actually I was thinking more of withholding the Eucharist, not the drastic step of excommunication. I believe that excommunication is automatic (does not need to be imposed) anyway. Public figures have been seen at church doing this when they are on record voting for abortion matters.
FROM AL KRESTA ON THIS:
In his informative blog, In the Light of the Law, canonist Edward Peters
has provided a complete review of the revelant provisions. To mention
just the essentials:
- Canon 915 reads: "Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted
after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others
obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to
Holy Communion."
Notice two important aspects of this canon. First it refers not to
those who have been excommunicated, but also to "others" who are not
formally subject to that canonical penalty. Second, the canon does not
merely say that these people should refrain from receiving Communion; it
says that they "are not to be admitted." As Peters puts it, "It is
self-evident from the terms of this canon that some people who are not
excommunicated are nevertheless prohibited from receiving the Eucharist
and that this prohibition is meant to be enforced."
My background is complex and maybe of interest. My parents both became Catholic when I was a teen. They didn't pressure me at that time. I remember only getting a brief counseling from the priest (who later became a bishop) when my parents began having marital problems. They both left the church and divorced. My father just before his death returned. My mother married a retired Episcopal priest when I was in my 20's who introduced me to the human failings of the priesthood. He never talked to me about religion unless I brought it up. My sister became a Catholic when she married but after her divorce left the church became involved in women's lib efforts in the Presbyterian Church. She never talked to me about religious things except recently (she is an avid anti-Catholic) when she revealed a story about an Abbot who gave her and her second husband (he never a Catholic, too British) Communion. She had been a significant contributor to the monastary founding when she was a Catholic. She told him the truth before hand, but, he dismissed the idea that he could not do this.
I have always thought that these people just figured that I was a lost cause and didn't want to talk to me about religion, although my sister told me recently that I am hard to argue with!
My experience has not been entirely outside of the church.
____________________
HLD
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 12:57 am |
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howardduncan wrote:David, I misled you about my friend. His divorce is something I have been trying to get him through and it is up most in my mind. He was previously married to another Catholic, and then divorced after self admitted adultery. Remarried out of the church and now divorced again. Enough to have to confess before partaking of the Eucharist I believe. This is an Hispanic cradle Catholic from the 60's living in the California central valley to whom I am explaining the Trinity, how to find a chapter and verse in the bible, the apostolic authority of the church, and, the fact that Jesus and Christ are not two separate people! Where was his priest?
Yes, having the whole story does help. On the other hand, he is not currently in any marital union, so I believe he is not disqualified on the ground of his remarriage.
Having seen the California central valley area and San Francisco as a young adult, I am aware of just how crazy things were there in those days. Then there was the consequent disarray inside the Catholic Church, so I can readily understand how this friend of yours was never catechized. I often meet with uncatechized “Catholics” here in southern Texas even now. They get their religion from television, and I don’t mean EWTN. Once in a while they remember a few lines from their grandmothers. Most of them have not seen the inside of a church since childhood.
Regarding abortion. Actually I was thinking more of withholding the Eucharist, not the drastic step of excommunication. I believe that excommunication is automatic (does not need to be imposed) anyway. Public figures have been seen at church doing this when they are on record voting for abortion matters.
Excommunication is by definition a “withholding of communion.” In fact, that is what the Latin word means. It is simply a more formal way of accomplishing the same thing as pointing to an obstinate public mortal sin and withholding communion.
I am familiar with Edward Peters and approve of his analysis.
My background is complex and maybe of interest.
Every person’s story is of interest. Yours is complex only because of your relatives, who couldn’t decide if they wanted to be saints or sinners.
Yes, the abbot could physically “do this,” but he broke canon law and committed sacrilege in doing it. So much for his sense of faith and vow of obedience. So much like your relatives, who became this or that for reasons of convenience and not to save their souls. I can understand your difficulties with this same basic attitude in other people.
David
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 02:42 am |
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Howard:
I'm glad that you've joined and come to visit and discuss your faith journey with us.
I think you'll find that many other catholics have been less than disappointed with the church in their life time.
Every time I hear a story like yours, It makes me want to grab you by the hand and bring you to my parish. Father does such a wonderful job teaching and practicing the faith. He never has taught us anything but solid orthodox teaching and not once have a caught a situation that he has slipped. I think everyone deserves a wonderful pastor just like father.
Welcome to the forum, we're very happy to have you here with us.
God Bless
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 11:48 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Yes, having the whole story does help. On the other hand, he is not currently in any marital union, so I believe he is not disqualified on the ground of his remarriage.
While that is true, it does seem that he would be a candidate for sacramental confession. On the other hand, until such a confession takes place, the priest may not feel it is up to him to make that judgment. It's also possible that a sacramental confession has taken place, and he just does not wish (for some reason) to admit it.
That's why it's so hard to make a judgment in cases such as this, and it is best left to the priest and the penitent to determine what steps are necessary. If in fact the friend has returned to communion without first confessing, and the priest is truly aware of that fact, then he appears to be guilty of a grave sin and the priest should advise him of that fact out of concern for his immortal soul.
But it is not for us to judge the sinfulness of another.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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howardduncan
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 12:36 pm |
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David,
Yes, having the whole story does help. On the other hand, he is not currently in any marital union, so I believe he is not disqualified on the ground of his remarriage.
I am sure that you are not saying that you must confess DURING the act of committing a sin?
Does not the fact of not having confessed his past adultery (over probably 30 years) disqualify?
there is still precious little coming from the pulpit concerning this grave sin. Not all priests are moral theologians, that they should be talking about sin (my own pastor happens to be one, and he talks about sin a lot),
I do not believe that the Church is that unclear in it's teaching about abortion that an advanced degree would be necessary. Understanding what sin IS and which acts are sins is basic to any hoped for relationship with God. We can't substitute the secular notion that we don't know what "IS" is.
This common biblical metaphor is familiar to me. Northern Nevada has a Basque sheep herder heritage. Living in a rural area, I have seen them flock many times eating high desert grass. The state government even imports them from miles away to control grasses after fires. I once saw a flock grazing along side of the highway. The Sheppard and his dogs were careful to keep the sheep only feet away from cars driving 60 mph. Jesus would be proud. When the sheep don't turn the right way the Sheppard’s dog makes his presence known, if they still don't turn he barks, and, if that doesn’t work he nips at the legs of the nearest sheep. If all of that doesn't work, tragedy can follow. I have seen dogs do this with cows as well. There is a time honored process.
I have searched the internet for a group that rates parishes based on adherence to Church teaching and have found nothing. The closest thing was http://www.crisismagazine.com/eletters/jan1405.htm
I did find an interesting pdf from the U.S. Catholic bishops trying to answer the question “Does The Bishop Matter?” It is quantitative only and shows number of ordinations, members, etc. http://www.crisismagazine.com/febmarch2007/hall.htm
I am re-re-reading the good things that you all have written and am trying to absorb it. At this stage of evaluation the bad is needs to be uncovered.
____________________
HLD
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Annie
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 12:40 pm |
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Hi, Howard,
I am a new Catholic dismayed to find that I have joined a Church that really no longer exists. However, I believe the current problems will be used by God to further figure out who are sheep and who are goats. So don't cut and run, stay with us and help out.
Maybe we should be more vocal to the bishops at the risk of seeming like irritating nags?
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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howardduncan
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 04:22 pm |
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Rick,
But it is not for us to judge the sinfulness of another.
My purpose here is not a concern for my friends soul (sounds terrrible) but to understand the workings of the Church. I do realize that I may not always be fully informed about the state of a pastors care. This example is probably not a good one.
____________________
HLD
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 05:48 pm |
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Annie wrote: Hi, Howard,
I am a new Catholic dismayed to find that I have joined a Church that really no longer exists. However, I believe the current problems will be used by God to further figure out who are sheep and who are goats. So don't cut and run, stay with us and help out.
Maybe we should be more vocal to the bishops at the risk of seeming like irritating nags?
What do you mean, Annie? This is a concern I have. I don't want to join the Catholic Church and find that the wonderful institution I thought existed doesn't. Does anyone have insight into this?
____________________
"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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howardduncan
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 08:16 pm |
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Racaela wrote:
What do you mean, Annie? This is a concern I have. I don't want to join the Catholic Church and find that the wonderful institution I thought existed doesn't. Does anyone have insight into this?
To put on a different hat for a change.
The insight I have been getting (not only here) is that the teachings of the Church itself at the highest level has remained intact and consistant through 2,000 years of battering. That is the draw for me since I have not attended a local parish ever. I have no idea what goes on. I just assume that it had better coinside with Rome or else I'm outta there.
If this description is accepted and we have access to those teachings then what happens on the lower levels can be in flux with no harm to us because we can use our own intellect to guide us. People in Luther's time didn't have the internet or Amazon.com. It is our own soul after all. I have described Catholicism as the "thinking persons religion". It doesn't mean that Catholics are deep thinkers, it means that reason is a key element of the faith.
Not the easiest solution to our dilemma, but, the only one probably.
____________________
HLD
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1714 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 01:00 am |
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howardduncan wrote:Does not the fact of not having confessed his past adultery (over probably 30 years) disqualify?
Howard, I’m a little late getting back to you. Had a bad night last night, and it didn’t help the day.
My comment on your friend’s “disqualification” has been slightly twisted. Because he is not married at the moment, the canonical effect of his previous divorce and remarriage would be null, in the sense that after he has taken care of his other impediments, he could then be eligible to receive communion. This does not mean that there are not other problems in his moral life, not the least of which seems to be an allergy for the sacrament of penance, which he evidently needs far more than the Eucharist at this point. I had thought we agreed to that earlier.
Again, my assessment of the quantity and quality of comment in homilies on the subject of abortion was meant to show some of the excuses I have heard for not preaching against it. It most definitely was not trying to indicate that one ought to be a degreed theologian to say anything at all. Laymen often do more and better than clergy in this area.
I know about the Basque sheepherders in northern Nevada and southern Oregon and Idaho. Decades ago, I worked for a few months in Lakeview, OR, just north of the Nevada state line, and saw a number of them. Their dogs were amazing workers.
“My sheep hear my voice.” Over the years, I’ve seen how this actually is the case. God always manages to keep a remnant who have “not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Racaela Fultz wrote:I don't want to join the Catholic Church and find that the wonderful institution I thought existed doesn't. Does anyone have insight into this?
Oh, it exists, all right. Sometimes it’s a little hard to see through the fog of human imperfection, but it’s there, giving sustenance to those who have the perseverance to stick with it in spite of appearances.
Annie has seen some dirt and grime, but she is optimistic enough to bear with them. Otherwise she would not solicit our help in combatting the encrustment of sludge. She seems quite willing to mortgage the farm to buy that field. The soil must be pretty good there in spite of her complaints.
David
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 03:03 am |
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If someone was questioning the church regarding standing up against abortion, I can see that maybe there could be more said here and there in homiles. But, I will say that though I have been pro-life for a long time, since becoming Catholic I have heard more about it and thought harder about ways I can do my part than I ever heard before. I still think we are one of the loudest voices I know of in this arena. I can only defend not saying too much about it in church, because I think the homiles should stay focused on the readings, and I do not like personally when they try to shorten them or alter them to allow other people to speak or make announcements, but it is important and we should be hearing more challenges made to those who perhaps do not agree.
But you may want to look into a Father Frank Pavone director of priests for life. He is constantly working on this cause and seeking ways to encourage others to do so. There is also an organization that teaches people how to have civil disobedience and with members who are willing to be arrested in peaceful demonstration.
I know there is a lot here and there that may frustrate some, but the church you are looking for is still here and always will be. At times it gets clouded, but it is here. I mean, I try to do my part, but the church is made up of imperfect people who sin, and I am one of them, so I am sure I contribute to our flaws as well. I had the privilege of going to mass at a convent the other Sunday. You may want to try that if you want to see a more reverent mass to go to. There were lay people visiting as well as the nuns. In any case, I am very happy that I joined the Church and would indeed recommend it, as I believe that it is true, which as is the most important reason to join. We have our problems, but it is a wonderful and large world with great blessings and the powerful sacramental life to strengthen us.
Brian
Last edited on Tue Aug 14th, 2007 03:06 am by brian
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 10:37 am |
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What I am mainly missing is the wonderfully vertical otherwordly worship experience. The new worship style is very much horizontal in nature, focused on the congregation and the priest. There is even much less language of the sacrifice of the Mass. There are priests who change the rubrics to say, "happy are those who are called to the table." And how many priests do you hear nowadays refer to "the holy sacrifice of the Mass." Only on EWTN it seems.
We can hang our hats on the dogma of indefectibility but it doesn't help us in worship when people are so intent on making a Protestant style worship. In getting rid of what V. II called "accretions" they got rid of some Catholic distinctives which were important to worship, such as the penitential rite at the beginning of Mass and the prayers at the foot of the altar. Now, it is possible for a priest to begin the Mass with "Good morning," which puts the focus on himself and automatically makes the worship horizontal.
For further insight see the website of the "lumengentleman" and others. I love that name anyway! It's a play on the title of the V. II document Lumen Gentium.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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howardduncan
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Nevada USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | Howard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born - Episcopal - drifted - Catholic? |
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 11:12 am |
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David wrote (several posts ago, I contemplate slowley)
On the other hand, contemplating your history, it seems that the existence of anti-Christians is not so telling as the existence of bad Christians. You drifted off because you “became angry at the church experience, but never at God.” I can understand your feeling there, because after I entered the Catholic Church I had the same experiences to contend with. The hippie mindset had entered the sanctuary.
People of our age (I was born in 1941) can put things into context for those younger.
My wandering happended earlier than your experience. The word hippie hadn't been coined yet. It was still the era of the "beatnick". My anger was directed at the same older generation that the hippies rebelled against. It was mainly hypocrisy that got under my skin. The largest example of it was racial predudice. The stepfather that I described earlier was also a hero. While an active priest, he dramatically gave communion to a young black girl against his church leaders warning and was fired. My mother and he were married by Bishop James Pike. If you read this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Pike you will get an accurate feel for the times.
The hippie age was a mindless and destructive reaction to prior generations faults and an excuse for self indulgence (probably the greater reason). I did not take part in that way. I never liked the uniform. Dirty Jeans and dirty smelly feet never appealed to me! I lived in San Francisco near the corner of Oak and Stanyan at the entrance to Golden Gate park in 1968. Haight-Ashbury, hippie epicenter. I went to work as a sales trainee in a suit and tie!
This time was the beginning of the problems we are discussing.
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HLD
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1714 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 12:10 pm |
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The hippie age was a mindless and destructive reaction to prior generations faults and an excuse for self indulgence (probably the greater reason). I did not take part in that way. I never liked the uniform. Dirty Jeans and dirty smelly feet never appealed to me! I lived in San Francisco near the corner of Oak and Stanyan at the entrance to Golden Gate park in 1968. Haight-Ashbury, hippie epicenter.… This time was the beginning of the problems we are discussing
In 1968 I saw SF, including the corner of Haight and Ashbury, as a vacationing Oregonian. Lake Tahoe was more impressive.
The scenes of hippie self indulgence you mention are still vivid from my college days (a few years before my trip to SF, at the height of the phenomenon). As for you, this cultural celebration of adolescence and “selfhood” held no attraction for me. Some friends insisted I go to hear Timothy Leary speak; I did and was unimpressed. I had entered the Catholic Church shortly before college and was still intent on following the truth. The cult of self seemed quite antithetical.
David
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