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jkaiser
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| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | jordan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | generic protestant--Latin Rite Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 03:17 pm |
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| Hello,I am new to the forum and I am a practicing catholic. I have a question about resurrection or rather a comment. I know we are suppose to believe in the resurrection of the dead but I have a difficult time understanding why would this be so. God of course can do any and all things.However,I just ask why the earthly remains have to be resurrected?I for one would feel much better to just be rid of this flesh,since we are truly spirts.But if it has to be that way I can accept it.My human mind just can not see the logic.Thank you, and God bless. Jordan
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Annie
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 03:21 pm |
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We are given glorified bodies when we are resurrected. I am glad because I might look better.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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jkaiser
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| First Name: | jordan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | generic protestant--Latin Rite Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 03:29 pm |
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| Yes Annie I agree we all will look better with a glorified body! Jordan
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 04:55 pm |
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Hi Jordan,
First of all, a warm welcome to the forum. 
Your question is very important, but difficult to address briefly. So I would recommend the following articles (the first is from a Protestant, but contains nothing, I think, that Catholics would disagree with):
The Great Christian Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Body
The Resurrection of the Body
Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in the resurrection ... [#988 ff.]
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: General ResurrectionLast edited on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 04:56 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Pani Rose
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| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 11:43 pm |
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Lazarus came forth from the tomb and went on to serve the Church. Whether part of the Church Militant or Church Triumphant, there is work to be done for our Lord Jesus Christ and the building of the Kingdom of God....
After the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the murder of the holy Archdeacon Stephen a persecution against the Church of Jerusalem broke out, and Righteous Lazarus was cast out of Jerusalem. The holy sisters then assisted their brother in the proclaiming of the Gospel in various lands. They reposed in Cyprus, where their brother became the first Bishop of Kition after his resurrection from the dead.
Lazarus was a forshadowing(not right word) of the Christ's Ressurection from the tomb, as he is for ours. Christ became man, so that we could become more like him. So too, in this flesh or in the body of the life to come, we are all called to glorify God as Lazarus did in his lifetime before and after his ressurection.
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Thomas
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| First Name: | Thomas | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 12:32 pm |
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One way of looking at this question is to recognise the difference between the Hellenic view of body and soul, and the Hebraic view.
The Greeks viewed the body as a thing in which something else, the soul, resided. So their view is essentially dualistic, and in it the world is either evil, or at the very least, unfortunate.
The Hebraic (Scriptural) view is holistic ... body and soul exist in a dynamic unity, not two distinct things thrown together out of necessity. As Genesis tells us, the world — the material, the physical, the bodily, is 'good', and when God made man, the highpoint of His creation, He saw that it was 'very good' (Gen 1:31).
For the Jews the body is how the soul is 'present' in the world ... we live in a material world, a physical world, and if the soul has no material or physical presence, it is not really 'here' ... so the body is the material and physical form of the soul ... it's not something that the soul moves into, our bodies are not things our souls occupy, our bodies are the physical presence of our souls ... without a body, you and I would not be here ...
St Thomas makes the same point. Angels are 'better' than man because they are pure spirit, but man is better than the angels because he is body and spirit, whereas angels are spirit alone. If all God wants is spirits, He has them in the angelic choirs, He has no need of man.
St Paul talks of man sitting in judgement on the world, and indeed on angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).
"For we know that all creation groaneth and labours in pain, even till now."
Romans 8:22
Lastly, to be human is not simply to be a soul, and to become perfect is not to leave the body behind ... this is something inherited from Greek pagan thought which all too easily frames Christian thinking ... to be human is to be an embodied soul ... a soul without a body is imperfect and incomplete ... and when man is perfect, in body and in soul, then so too will the whole of creation become perfected, a true theophany, a vision of the Divine Glory.
If we adhere to the idea of a disposable body ... then we sail perilously close to the Asiatic traditions who view the material order as essentially meaningless and illusory.
St Maximus the Confessor speaks of all creation finding its perfection in man, for man is made up of mineral, vegetable, animal — body, soul and spirit ... and when man is perfected, then all will become perfect in and through him.
So the Resurrection is the final accomplishment of God's Plan ... and until that time, even the saints in heaven are 'incomplete' and fall short of the final perfection of being ... they are fully saints, but they are not fully human, until they walk in the world again, and man shall find heaven on earth.
Thomas
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PassthePeace1
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| Joined: | Sun Jul 1st, 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 12:42 pm |
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I have a great quote from a Early Church Father somewhere...lol...I'll have to see if I can find it. But basically, it's part of God's plan of salvation to restore everything to like it was before the fall of man in the garden.
Peace be with you...Pam
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Dennis
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| First Name: | Dennis | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Bible Church/United Methodist/Episcopalian/Anglican |
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 05:59 pm |
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As to this good question of why we need to be resurrected, I would offer two passages of Holy Scripture. The first arises from our baptism and the Apostle Paul's words from Romans 6:5, "For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection."
The second is 1st Corinthians 15:52-53, "The dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality." This passage goes on to speak of the final triumph of victory over death through our Lord Jesus Christ. His resurrection is the triumph over death and the pattern for our final victory as well.
Peace in Christ,
Dennis +
(a "newby" to the CHN Forum)
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germangreek
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | Lansing, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Richard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, (Charismatic and still) Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:01 pm |
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jkaiser wrote: I have a question about resurrection or rather a comment. ... just ask why the earthly remains have to be resurrected ... since we are truly spirts
I hope no one minds my blowing the dust off this topic!
Thomas above gave a very good overview about the differences between the Greek and Hebraic views of the human person, and in this area the Christian view follows the Hebraic. Some discussions of abortion turn on the moment of 'ensoulment', which requires an excessively dualistic, non-Christian, understanding. Of course, the question also seems me odd to me because most pro-abortion advocates strike me as pretty thorough-going materialists anyway.
Anyway, as to why we have to be resurrected. I've been long fascinated by an old understanding in the church that it was the decision of the second Person of the Godhead to become incarnate that prompted the rebellion of the angels. It occurs to me that in the heavenly realms before creation, when all that exists is spirit and has intelligence and free will, the introduction of something that has being but no will and no intelligence and is made of something not spirit would have struck many of the heavenly host as wonderful and surprising (who but God could have thought such a thing possible!) and others as pointless. And as creation progresses toward a body that has intelligence and free will, it might have been seen by some as a desecration to imprison an angel-like being in worthless matter. And any God Who would subject Himself to the indignity of taking on a material existence would be unworthy of worship, especially of worship in that undignified 'stuff'. Hence the rebellion, and the determination of the fallen angels to 'prove' that physical creation was a mistake by getting it to rebel as well. And the concomitant understanding that God's purposes in creating the material order are beyond even the comprension of His most intelligent creatures.
The above is, of course, pure speculation. If any of it is heretical, I will cheerfully recant it! Hier stehe ich, ich kann viel anders!
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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rbo4u2
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
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| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:09 pm |
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germangreek wrote:
Anyway, as to why we have to be resurrected. I've been long fascinated by an old understanding in the church that it was the decision of the second Person of the Godhead to become incarnate that prompted the rebellion of the angels. It occurs to me that in the heavenly realms before creation, when all that exists is spirit and has intelligence and free will, the introduction of something that has being but no will and no intelligence and is made of something not spirit would have struck many of the heavenly host as wonderful and surprising (who but God could have thought such a thing possible!) and others as pointless. And as creation progresses toward a body that has intelligence and free will, it might have been seen by some as a desecration to imprison an angel-like being in worthless matter. And any God Who would subject Himself to the indignity of taking on a material existence would be unworthy of worship, especially of worship in that undignified 'stuff'. Hence the rebellion, and the determination of the fallen angels to 'prove' that physical creation was a mistake by getting it to rebel as well. And the concomitant understanding that God's purposes in creating the material order are beyond even the comprension of His most intelligent creatures.
Greetings Richard,
I must admit, you got me on this one. This is something I've never read before. For those who are new to my beat hear, I've been studying scripture for over 40 years and Catholicism in particular in the last 5 years. So I've read a lot of stuff, but this is a new one for me. Or if I have read it, my tired old brain cells have stuffed it into some far off corner of my cranial universe. Do you have a source for this? I would have to agree, it's probably speculation but never-the-less, if the church taught it at one time then it's worth considering.
I suspect if there is anyone on this site who can provide information it's Dave Armstrong or maybe our lovable Frog Kermie.
Rich
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:58 pm |
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germangreek wrote: I hope no one minds my blowing the dust off this topic!
New forum members often resurrect old topics. That's why they're left open so anyone can post at any time. Feel free to respond to any old thing you find!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BeProf
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 06:43 pm |
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"Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ; and man became a living being."
Why do we have to be resurrected? Because we aren't solely spiritual beings any more than we are solely physical ones.
Now... the deeper question is why did God make us as both physical and spiritual beings. For that I have no answer beyond, "Because it pleased Him to do so."
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:19 pm |
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| I had never heard this theory but it is a fascinating one. I tend to think that the angelic rebellion (from what little Scripture tells us about it) was on the same grounds as the human one: wanting to place ourselves in the position that the Creator has by the nature of things. Neither men nor the fallen angels like to be subordinate to someone else. It's pride. Lookin' out for #1, but when you are #2, that don't work because the premise is a lie . . .
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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