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Kayla
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| Location: | Emmitsburg, Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | Kayla | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Atheist, kind-of Mormon, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:46 am |
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Okay, I'm a little ignorant of Church History. Or at least, the 'bad' stuff... I mean, besides the Spanish Inquisition Crusades being shoved down our throats in public school...
Where can I get a quick, Catholic, synopsis of some of these 'bad' things, and how to respond to them when confronted about them?
I've been hit a lot with stuff that I really have no idea about. I don't know how to respond, besides the "the Church is filled with man and man sins". I don't like being ignorant of my own Church's history, even if it weren't exactly the nicest.
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
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Robert
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Germany |
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| First Name: | Robert | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | The whole spectrum from black to white, now 100% Catholic! |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 12:49 pm |
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The „bad“catholic things are mostly used by Protestants and Anti-Catholics to detract from the good done by the Church that Jesus founded, and to legitimize Protestantism.
The themes used most often are:
Bad, even ungodly Popes
The Crusades
The Inquisition
There are a few apologetic keys that can be used to “combat” most of the accusations. But you can be sure that no matter how much you know, you will never convince a hardened anti-catholic of the truth if the don’t want to know it.
Her are some of the keys:
1. Yes there were bad Popes. But was there one who taught heretical doctrine? Did bad Popes change the truth infused by Christ into his Church?
2. The Crusades were a reaction to a call for help from the Eastern Church that was being conquered by Moslem invaders! Ask which methods Islam used to spread its “gospel”, and how did Islam get from Mecca to Spain and the gates of Vienna?
3. The Inquisition was a method of preserving orthodoxy. Recent studies show very clearly that most of the horror stories are unfounded.
IMO its best to take on one point at a time and get the basic apologetic argument down before going on to the next one. There is a lot of information out there, but the best source I know of off hand is Catholic Answers http://www.catholic.com
Last edited on Thu Jan 10th, 2008 02:37 pm by Robert
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Free
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| Location: | Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-demoninational, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 03:02 pm |
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Sometimes a little shock value helps. Most Protestants do not know that John Calvin had a man burned at the stake, too.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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Free wrote: Sometimes a little shock value helps. Most Protestants do not know that John Calvin had a man burned at the stake, too.
And how many hundreds/thousands were killed by Henry VIII?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JasPax
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| Location: | North Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 06:08 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: Free wrote: Sometimes a little shock value helps. Most Protestants do not know that John Calvin had a man burned at the stake, too.
And how many hundreds/thousands were killed by Henry VIII?
True. It became traditional in England to call Mary Tudor (dau. of Henry and Queen Catherine of Aragon) Bloody Mary. She was no more bloody during her short reign (1553-58) than most monarchs and far less than her half-sister Elizabeth I who followed her on the throne. Mary's attempts to restore the Church were hopeless since Henry had given away Church property to the aristocrats and they weren't about to give it up. Elizabeth I, for instance, had her cousin, Mary Queen of Scots killed, even though at that point Mary Q of S. was no threat to the throne.
It is very satisfying to read that Catholic Church attendance in the U.K. is higher now than among Anglicans. St. Thomas More and the other Martyrs must be smiling.
God's Blessings,
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Kayla
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| Joined: | Mon Jul 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Emmitsburg, Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | Kayla | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Atheist, kind-of Mormon, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 01:52 am |
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Yeah... I think this just might be a moot cause to argue with some people. They refuse to look at what other people did and well, just plain refuse to hear anything whatsoever.
I've been trying my hand at some apologetics on a few christian teen sites (and not doing half bad, if I do say so myself  ), but got smacked with some of the history arguments.
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 02:10 am |
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I generally try to deal with this kind of attack by asking where the Church TAUGHT that these historical figures SHOULD act in the way that they did. e.g. Can you show me the proclamation from the Pope that told the crusaders that they should commit atrocities while in the process of trying to make the Holy land safe for pilgrims?
If there is no evidence of that, then all their argument PROVES is that there are sinners in the Church. To be perfectly honest, that's no big surprise to me (since I'm a sinner, and in the Church )
Regards Doc
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 02:16 am |
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Kayla wrote: but got smacked with some of the history arguments.
I tend to answer that kind of objection with something like, "Yeah. So what?"
America used to permit slavery. Women were not allowed to vote. Ancient history. Maybe we owe someone an apology for the bad things the U.S. did, but it doesn't mean we can't have a black man or a white woman running for president today who both have a real chance of winning. In my state, on Monday, a woman governor will be succeeded by a first generation Indian American. The governor of California is an immigrant from Austria. The governor of New Mexico is Hispanic. The senior senator from Louisiana is female, and the junior senator from Illinois is black.
In the 1940's the free world's worst enemies were Germany and Japan. Today they are democracies and successful economies. History is fascinating, but it is only relevant to today in helping us to understand how we got where we are, and in making sure we don't make the same mistakes again. I grew up in a world where we truly believed we would be obliterated in a nuclear war any day. The leader of the Soviet Union promised to bury us while he banged the heel of his shoe on the desk at the United Nations. Today his country doesn't even exist any more. Today we worry about planes running into buildings; in my childhood, we worried about planes and missles carrying nuclear bombs and everyone knew the phrase "MAD" -- Mutually Assured Destruction -- a guarantee that if anyone pushed the button, the earth would end up a burned up cinder.
Let's hope humanity has learned its lessons from the nuclear era as well as the Church has learned her lessons from her dark times. I'm a lot more comfortable in believing that the Church will never repeat history than I am that the politicians won't.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mg57
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tolland County, Connecticut USA |
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| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 02:32 am |
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Kayla -
You asked for reference material. Here are three that I've read that will get you started, -
"Pope Fiction" by Pat Madrid - Click Here
"Separated Brethren" by William Whalen Publ. by Our Sunday Visitor Press -- Click Here
"The New Anti-Catholicism" by Philip Jenkins, Oxford University Press -- Click Here
Another one is "The Myth Of Hitler's Pope" by David Dalin, published by Regnery and distributed by Ignatius Press.
Church history is long and deep and it's important not to skimp. Read the best material. The above selections are very readable, not too academic and serve as good references.
NOTE: Edited to shorten links
Last edited on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 02:57 am by
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 07:52 pm |
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Where can I get a quick, Catholic, synopsis of some of these 'bad' things, and how to respond to them when confronted about them?
On my web page:
Inquisition, Crusades, and "Catholic Scandals"
That'll cover the things you mentioned pretty well. I also include lots of links. Also, if it comes to this in your discussions, I also have thoroughly documented a lot of the "bad" things that Protestants have done, too (precisely in reaction to these sorts of comments that Catholics hear), on my web pages:
Martin Luther and Lutheranism
John Calvin and Calvinism
Protestantism
If you run across anti-Catholic nonsense, I have literally hundreds of papers and dialogues on that:
Anti-Catholicism
Last edited on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 07:57 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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