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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 05:48 am |
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before i was catholic in belief it was a challenge to believe in a religion that pretty much tells you that you have the truth and others do not, so are in danger spiritually or know less than you do. but because of my beliefs in objective truth and conviction that Jesus was truly who he said he was I saw no other choice. now ten years later believing specifically that the Catholic Church is the fullest and only truly accurate represention of Christianity not only do i believe that my religion is correct, but that i am in a bettter place to know truth than all other denominations. and i suppose it must be this way. (though i do respect and admire the truths and good things within these other denominations and even religions, and still may be less saintly or obedient than those who follow them)
so my question is: how do i deal with this? why do i know this truth and others do not? i see three possibilities, and none seem to appeal.
1: there must be something better about me than those who do not get it. i must be smarter or more spiritual or more able to have heard and submit to God's call. however, this is a very unhealthy attitude for a Christian. and i do not think i am better smarter or more sincere my non-catholic friends. i can not take credit for what God has revealed to me. and if i did what pride i would think myself guilty of!
2: It is becuase of the grace of God. now there is a lot of truth to this, but even if i believe that it is grace that i know what others do not, then why do they not know? why would i be given a grace that others are not? does God love me more? so this view seems faulty as well, because if i have nothing to do with it then God is simply showing me something that He won't show others.
3: (and i'm leaning towrds this one.) Only God knows and i should just feel unworthy and humble and thank and praise Him and leave it to Him to know how and why this works and focus on trying to be loving and obedient to Jesus Christ the best i can and not demand to understand so much.
i suppose how i dealt with it before was that i believed that the grace of God or Holy Spirit was trying to lead all men to the truth equally, but that it requires ome amount of us responding to that. I was not Calvinist so i believed all were capable of responding to this grace, and not a chosen few. So I believed those who did not come around must have resisted this grace of enlightenment to who Jesus was. I still think there is truth to that view. but is it now true of those who are Christian but not Catholic. Are they resisting the true way the Holy Spirit would lead them? That would make argument 1 seem more true but it is tough to say when they seem to grow and do so much good. I also believe that some people know truth but for some reason can not know it fully, like the church teaches, are actually saved in some mysterious way, and so maybe is it ok to God that some people not get the fulness of truth?
any thoughts?
brian
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 11:57 am |
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brian wrote: so my question is: how do i deal with this? why do i know this truth and others do not? i see three possibilities, and none seem to appeal.
1: there must be something better about me than those who do not get it...
2: It is becuase of the grace of God...
3: (and i'm leaning towrds this one.) Only God knows...
I also believe that some people know truth but for some reason can not know it fully, like the church teaches, are actually saved in some mysterious way, and so maybe is it ok to God that some people not get the fulness of truth?
I think you're starting to come around to the "Catholic mindset" which is both/and rather than either/or.
Number 1 can't be true because we are all sons and daughters of God, and none of us are better than another.
Number 2 is the true answer, because God's grace is poured out on each of us, but each of us must choose to respond to that grace. The fullness of truth is available to all through the methods Jesus gave us (Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium) and for a millennium and a half, all Christians accepted them. We can see the result when one of the three legs of Truth falls way, and it is that the stool topples. On our own human authority we can accept nothing, so after abandoning Magisterium, it is only a matter of time before Tradition and Scripture fall away as well. We end up with not one Body of Christ, but tens of thousands of human denominations.
So then we look to your answer number 3. We know that those who, through no fault of their own, do not recognize or accept the Truth are still eligible for salvation, but only God knows how.
The difference between a sinner and a saint is not in the amount of grace God gives them, or the way it is poured out to them, but rather in their response. And as you noted, many who do not have the fullness of Truth can still respond to God's grace by taking care of the least of God's people. Of course, we still keep our arms open to welcome them back, as the father welcomed the Prodigal Son, and until then, we trust them to God's loving mercy. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 06:08 pm |
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Brian,
I can understand your questioning and I think many Christains have similar questions at some point or another on their journey toward the Celestial City. Personally, I am thankful that I no longer believe in "limited atonement" the "l" in tulip. For that teaching says that God through Christ predestined who would and would not be saved and therefore Jesus died ONLY for His chosen ones. That can breed a self-righteousness and a lax attitude toward evangelizing. Afterall, if God already chose those whom He intends to be saved, then whether I share the good news of the gospel with others or not, they will still be saved. Of course, that is hyper-Calvinism, but even mediocre Calvinists can have a "Devil may care" attitude about witnessing their faith.
If I look at my own personal journey, I don't recall a time when the Holy Spirit was strongly impressing upon me to investigate the Catholic Church while my response instead, was one of rebellion or disinterest. On the contrary, I can look back and see that slowly the Holy Spirit has sown seeds of interest within me toward the Catholic faith. Even so, I didn't think at the time that it was the Holy Spirit putting curiosity within me toward Catholicism. I can only say that now in hindsight. Again, even now when I have a greater interest in the Catholic faith than ever before in my life, I still recognize that their are certain doubts creeping around inside of me. Perhaps it is my skeptical nature, or perhaps my intellect wanting to make sure that all the pieces fall into place before I make the decision to cross the Tiber. I do think that my many years within the Protestant faith kept me from being open to Catholicism. But as I said in my "Anti-Catholic Influences" post, ex-Catholics most definitely had a powerful effect on keeping me from investigating Catolicism. I believed what they had to say because they had been raised in the Catholic faith and trusted what they said. And most of their testimonies against Catholicism agreed with each other, even though not all of these ex-Catholics knew each other. I didn't even consider that they might be speaking untruths.
One thing that has comforted me in these last few months is what I heard about Theresa, the Little Flower. (at least I think it was this saint) Jesus revealed to her that everyone has an opportunity to recieve Christ before they die and He comes to many even at the hour of death to give them that opportunity.
I will stop here before I begin to ramble.
God Bless You,
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Katy
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | DFW, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 78 |
| First Name: | Katy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-denom/Bible churches, Catholic since Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 06:35 pm |
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Darlene wrote: One thing that has comforted me in these last few months is what I heard about Theresa, the Little Flower. (at least I think it was this saint) Jesus revealed to her that everyone has an opportunity to recieve Christ before they die and He comes to many even at the hour of death to give them that opportunity.
I believe the saint you are thinking of is Saint Faustina who gave us the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Here is some info about her.
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Lord, by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.
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Truthseeker
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 340 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Thu Dec 14th, 2006 12:07 pm |
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Brian-
I'm in a hurry so have not read any responses to your question, but just wanted to let you know that I have questioned that, too, in relation to myself. Why was I one of the ones who was able to "open my eyes"?
Have a good day.
Love,
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
| Posts: | 86 |
| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 11:00 pm |
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Truthseeker wrote: Why was I one of the ones who was able to "open my eyes"?
I don't know if my comment will help, but I remember a priest's homily on how God answers prayers. I think it was a question of why did Jesus only came during his time and not before when they were slaves of Egypt....
There were sort of conditions for God to answer prayers. One's intentions, the person/people, and time.
He said that if one's prayers and intentions are not good the immediate answer of God is NO.
If one's intention is good and the time is right, but the person is not yet there (spiritually, mentally, emotionally), then God's answer is GROW.
If one's intention is good and the person is good, but the time is not yet right, then God's answer is SLOW.
If one's intention is good, the person has grown and the time is right, then God answers GO.
It could be because you have the right intentions (the wants/needs of your heart and soul), you have grown enough and it is time for you to believe... By God's grace, you are now HOME. 
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 11:38 pm |
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Lia,
I think I'm going to have to write that one down! Did you just remember that sermon or did you write it down too? I think every Christian can find themselves in one of those categories.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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lia
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
| Posts: | 86 |
| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 06:56 pm |
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Darlene,
I try to remember good homilies from priests. It's after the mass that I can take notes so that I won't forget. I heard this homily 10 years ago. It is easy to remember because of the rhyme 
God bless!
Lia
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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GoFisher
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 115 |
| First Name: | Kathy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Mth Cng Prs UM sang@RC Ep UM (MDiv) Word-Faith Charismatic-RC |
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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2007 05:16 pm |
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This is another good topic! My cousin still wants to be a pastor in the United Methodist Church. We've been e-mailing each other about why I became Catholic. She is surprised. I guess I did not know that of my entire family, apparently, only my Mom and dad know. It would have been an interesting "revelation" to them for them to find out if I had attended my other cousin's wedding in the fall. So, I gave her a review of why I left UMC, why I joined and then left a GREAT charismatic church (still a mystery to me at times, but The Lord is giving me dreams that show things wrong in baptism and communion there). I am still in the process of writing and editing my "conversion" story for this site. I want it to be clear. Perhaps I could "practice it" by including the parts I have already finished. If that is a good idea, then I will post it in the conversion forums. I would like it to be clear, and easy to understand. My cousin is asking me questions that are also found on this site too.
I wonder if I will be the only Catholic, or the FIRST Catholic in my family since before my relatives came over on THE MAYFLOWER.
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Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
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