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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 01:13 am |
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The following question was originally posted by Dexter. I am reposting it for organizational purposes:
I am a person with a strong plymouth brethren, "John Darbian" background being drawn to the Catholic Church. I have reconciled many of my initial skepticism such as the communion of saints, transubstantiation, infant baptism, Intercession of the Saints, Purgatory etc... however I still have three major hang-ups that I am struggling with.
The first is papal infabillity, and the infabillity of the church as a whole. I do understand that a Pope's teachings or actions can be considered innfallible in only a few cases. But how could the Pope and magesterium fail as a whole during the Spanish Inquisition and other atrocities, if she can not err?
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 01:29 am |
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cajunrick wrote: The first is papal infabillity, and the infabillity of the church as a whole. I do understand that a Pope's teachings or actions can be considered innfallible in only a few cases. But how could the Pope and magesterium fail as a whole during the Spanish Inquisition and other atrocities, if she can not err?
As you say, infallibilty is a charism given to the Church only in specific matters, and only under specific circumstances.
It has to be a matter of faith or morals. It has to be a belief of the entire Church, as represented by the college of bishops, in union with the bishop of Rome. It has to be expessed in an Ecumenical Council and ratified (promulgated) by the Pope, or an official pronouncement from the pope speaking ex cathedra after consultation with the entire Church through the college of bishops, or it has to be taught consistently by the entire Church, called the ordinary Magisterium. It covers only doctrine, not actions.
The Church is a Divinely instituted organization made up of sinful people who make mistakes. Some of the popes have been horrible human beings, guilty of all kinds of crimes against humanity and sins against their position. One pope even had statues of Greek gods and goddesses in his inaugural procession! Several were known to have kept harems, some openly practiced homosexuality, and one pope was even the son of another pope. The Church does not claim that either she or her leaders are perfect, only that she is protected from error when unanimously teaching on matters of faith and morals. And even with the horrible leadership the Church has faced in earlier times, no doctrine of faith or morals was ever questioned or reversed or even changed by any pope. How many other ecclesial communities can say they have never changed a teaching? How many permit birth control, divorce, gay marriage, and even abortion today? Prior to 1932, no Christian church permitted divorce. Today, all but the Catholics allow it.
So there is no claim of perfection, only infallibity, and only on specific subjects and in specific circumstances.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 08:52 am |
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But how could the Pope and magesterium fail as a whole during the Spanish Inquisition and other atrocities, if she can not err?
The reason you believe the Church failed and erred during the Spanish Inquisition is because you have been enculturated in a Protestant Country with anti-Catholic beliefs. But you haven't read the other side of the story.
1. The Spanish Inquisition is called the Spanish Inquisition because a "national government" was defending its sovereignty from Jewish and Muslim infiltrators pretending to be Catholic. A look at current events should be enough to confirm that scenario since it is being played out again.
2. Inquisition means inquiry or discovery. The Spanish Inquisition was a series of cases against Jews and Muslims who claimed to have converted to Catholicism but evidence shown that they were acting as spies for the Muslims against the country of Spain. The reason these individuals claimed to convert is because only Catholics could hold office in the Spanish government. Since the decisions in these "court cases" were made by individual tribunals which did not affect the entire Church, the doctrine of infallibility never comes to bear.
3. The reason that priests were involved in these national tribunals is because, in those days, in Spain, there was no such thing as "separation of Church and State". And because priests are presumably better able to discern whether a man is Catholic or not.
In the end, both Spain and the Spanish Church were justified in employing the inquisition. It is a system which is used today by every major government minus the religious content. To this day, spies are tried and put to death for treason.
Here's some things to read:
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_105.htm
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/0002ref.htm
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column1.html
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num25.htm
I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Juan
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