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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 27th, 2007 08:51 pm |
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The Vatican has posted the International Theological Commission's report, The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized on the Vatican web site. You'll find it here.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 02:20 pm |
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| I have gotten through about half of the document this morning but to me it looks like so far it is a very long explanantion of why they don't have a clue. The opinions of the church fathers seem to be very different on the matter. Is that other people's interpretation too?
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 7 months and 16
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 03:54 pm |
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It looks like… a very long explanantion of why they don't have a clue. The opinions of the church fathers seem to be very different on the matter.
The Church currently has no doctrine on babies who die unbaptized. The whole purpose of the report was to set down what we do know and the traditional speculation based on the revelation we do have so we can have a starting point for future theological discussion. Perhaps eventually something will come to light and we will have a better answer than “We don’t know.”
Pope Benedict is a theologian himself, and he has set before Catholic theologians this task, based on the current urgency about aborted babies, so that future generations can benefit. Just as we pray that the ongoing holocaust will end and never be repeated, so also we hope that those future generations will never have to wonder if such babies are saved.
David
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 03:55 pm |
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Yes Becky, I sat up way too long last night trying to read through that document, and about all I got out of it was what I believed all along, there is no explicit church teaching about the subject and I am left still trusting a loving God who loves all life that He created and He takes care of all innocence. And innocents.
David, where were we taught that God knows us by name before we are born, knows the number of hairs on our heads, etc? How is it thought possible that this child would not ever know his heavenly father?
Last edited on Mon May 28th, 2007 04:07 pm by Credo Catholic
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 04:27 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: I have gotten through about half of the document this morning but to me it looks like so far it is a very long explanantion of why they don't have a clue.
Yep, that's it.
Remember that whatever we look at, we view through certain lenses. The situation in Palestine, for example, is viewed quite differently in Jerusalem and in Amman, although both sides are looking at the same facts.
For more than a millennium, the Church viewed the question of unbaptized infants through the lens of Augustine, who was a single bishop. The Theological Commission viewed the matter through the lens of Vatican II, which was an ecumenical council writing collegially with the successor of Peter. As such, it refocused thought in many areas, one of the most significant being our relations with other faiths, and the admission that it is possible for those who, through no fault of their own, were never baptized to be saved. And doesn't that describe unbaptized infants? So if it is the infallible teaching of Vatican II that unbaptized adults can experience the Beatific Vision, how is it possible that an unbaptized infant with no personal responsibility for sin could be refused the Beatific Vision?
So the report of the Theological Commission has taken the same scripture and early beliefs and refocused them through the lens of Vatican II and come to the same doctrinal conclusion the Church has held all along: We haven't got a clue. It is entirely in God's hands.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 08:50 pm |
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Marsha, my own belief cautiously parallels yours. But for the record I have to state what is being done officially. And officially the pope has asked for this document to be drawn up as a starting point for theologians to discuss the issue and hopefully reach some conclusion about the matter. That way there may eventually be some substance to the Church’s doctrine on the fate of the unbaptized.
David
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brian
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 09:55 pm |
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What I find odd is that we seem to have the ideas of baptism by desire and baptism of blood that already seem to specify that somebody who was ignorant of the need for baptism or did died or did not receive the opportunity to it can go to heven. If we seem to allow this understanding, why is it so hard to say that babies somehow qualify for these terms. Meaning, if we see other loopholes in the absolute necesisity 100% of the time for physical baptism then why do some still feel a need to say that we do not know that this can apply to babies. Not to mention Old Testament saints who never had the chance for baptism and the Holy innocents who are all unbaptized babies and saints (granted Christian baptism did not exist).
I am glad the church is being cautious about it and allowing us to persoanlly believe what we will. So with that I personally believe that babies will achieve the beatific vision unless God somehow knowing what would have developed in their hearts can see they would have rejected grace. Or perhaps they do gain an opportunity to choose for themselves. Really, like the church, I say, I don't know. But I tend to think positively on the matter.
I guess what I find confusing is that we have specific theology to deal with martrys and those with invincible ignorance, yet with babies we keep saying...well, maybe... but I am no theologian, and I am happy enough that the church has never made limbo an official doctrine and that I am not required to believe it and that they do think there are good possibilities.
Brian
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 10:11 pm |
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| Even though abortion has brought a lot of this to the forefront, there were more miscarriages and stillbirths in the earlier centuries, and infant mortality was higher. Is it possible that our view of infants and the unborn has changed over time and is more significant now than before?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 10:39 pm |
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I think many of our beliefs have matured, including our vision of a loving God who does not reject anyone, although he allows us to reject him. Baptism of Blood certainly applies to those who are killed for the faith, such as the Holy Innocents who died on behalf of the Christ, but can it truly be said that Baptism of Blood would apply to those unborn children who are killed simply because they are an inconvenience to their mothers? Can Baptism of Desire be imputed to a child who is incapable of wishing to be baptized, just as they are incapable of sin? Can a child who cannot sin ever reject God? Would God punish a child for a sin he will commit some time in the future even though the child does not live long enough to commit any personal sins at all? I don't think so.
I prefer to think that Jesus who said not to keep the children away from him will somehow, in some way that only he and his Father can understand, make provision for the salvation for the least of his people, the most perfect example of pure innocence, the children that he commanded us all to emulate if we are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and to attain their honored place before God's Throne. After all, when he told us to be like little children, those children were Jews and not baptized Christians.
As the Catechism tells us, Baptism is the sacrament by which God brings salvation through the Church, but God is not limited by his sacraments. God knows what is truly in our hearts, and the heart of a child is pure and without personal sin and therefore does not deserve denial of the Beatific Vision.
And now the Church has officially stated that we are free to believe the Beatific Vision is not withheld from unbaptized infants. and there is reason to hope for their salvation.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 10:50 pm |
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brian wrote: I guess what I find confusing is that we have specific theology to deal with martrys and those with invincible ignorance, yet with babies we keep saying...well, maybe.
The difference, Brian, is personal choice. Martyrs have made a personal choice to defend the faith; those with invincible ignorance have made personal choices to live a good and righteous life. Infants have made no choices at all, and so have not accepted salvation either through baptism or their actions. That is the theological dilemma.
Yet the Church has always taught that those baptized based on the faith of their parents, or even against the wishes of their parents, are validly baptized. A child who lives even moments after birth, but long enough to be baptized with or without the consent of the parents, is believed to be destined for eternal life and Beatific Vision based on the actions of the sacrament, even if the minister is an athiest. And yet we say that an unbaptized infant is less entitled to eternity through the sacrifice of the Savior than an infant baptized by an athiest, who has no belief at all in the words and actions he is performing? That doesn't make sense to me, either.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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Limbo Document About Hope, Says Official
Secretary of the International Theological Commission Speaks to ZENIT
VATICAN CITY, MAY 28, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The key concept for the recently released study on the theological concept of limbo is hope based on God's mercy, said the secretary of the International Theological Commission.
Jesuit Father Luis Ladaria explained why the commission theologians decided to study the question of salvation for infants who die without baptism.
Father Ladaria, a professor at the Pontifical Gregorian University, said it was urgent to reflect on the salvation of these infants.
The 41-page document, "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized," was released April 20 and posted on the Vatican Web site on Sunday.
Father Ladaria said it is necessary to remember that limbo "is a theory with no explicit basis in Revelation" and is a concept that "was progressively abandoned in recent times."
He said the theologians who have reflected on this theme over the last few years concluded that "from a theological point of view, the development of a theology of hope and an ecclesiology of communion, together with a recognition of the greatness of divine mercy, challenge an unduly restrictive view of salvation."
Beatific vision
The document, Father Ladaria told ZENIT, concludes that "there are theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision."
The key concept of this document, said the theologian, is hope, based on God’s mercy.
The Jesuit said the document touches on pastoral and doctrinal points and recalled that it is not a teaching of the magisterium, but a text with "a certain theological authority."
The function of the International Theological Commission is to help the Holy See to examine doctrinal questions of great importance.
The commission is made up of theologians from various schools and nations. The members are named by the Pope after receiving suggestions from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and consulting the respective episcopal conferences.
The above article is reposted with permission from Zenit.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Dan Bryan
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 02:03 am |
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Dear Rick,
Thanks for the topic, Here are some verses I’d like to review followed by some questions.
Act 16:25-31 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, ……..And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
1Cr 7:10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION, THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED* (Quote)
97. St Paul teaches that the unbelieving husband or wife of a Christian believer is “consecrated” through their wife or husband, respectively, and moreover that their children too are “holy” (1 Cor 7:14). This is a remarkable indication that the holiness that resides in the Church reaches out to people outside the visible bounds of the Church by means of the bonds of human communion, in this case the family bonds between husband and wife in marriage and parents and children. St Paul implies that the spouse and the child of a believing Christian have by that very fact at least a connection to membership of the Church and to salvation; their family situation “involves a certain introduction to the Covenant”.
CajunRick wrote:
Yet the Church has always taught that those baptized based on the faith of their parents, or even against the wishes of their parents, are validly baptized.
I think in light of what Paul wrote concerning the believing faith of the parent, that this makes reasonable sense. The spouse or spiritual head of the house that believes sanctifies the unbelieving spouse and the children are then holy.
Doesn’t this sound like the ‘Economy of Salvation’? Santified and Holy seem very determinate to me.
Below we find that the tradition of the early church in the baptism of the dead suffice for the deceased child? Has the church maintained that tradition?
1Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? Maybe the believing parent should be baptized in the child's stead?
My wife and I as well as my daughter had a child that did not survive shortly after death.
The above verses and the following verse provided us great comfort in this and many death situations. And also that of the following:
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? …… Abraham
It was mentioned also, even though these children are not baptized there may be a salvific disposition, but they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Would Kingdom denial also apply to the repentant thief on his cross?
What is the disposition of these souls if not partakers of the Kingdom? Are they of a lower class of souls on the order of doulos fidelium, just outside the gates?
Again I struggle with most is if a child is made holy by the believing faith of a parent, then what is the disposition of someone that is made holy?
Also, I read the scripture to be saying that since the marriage creates one flesh under God, that God honors the believing spouse and maintains the whole in the 'Economy of Salvation'?
Why does the Commission state that Paul’s words not provide any assurance of salvation?
____________________
Be anxious for nothing; we make our own plans, but the Lord determines our steps..............Bible
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 02:47 pm |
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Dan Bryan wrote: Why does the Commission state that Paul’s words not provide any assurance of salvation?
The Church has always considered the salvation of the unbaptized as a "gray area" in our understanding of the Deposit of Faith. The ordinary method of salvation given to the Church is baptism, and only through baptism can the Church provide the opportunity for salvation. For those who have not been baptized, the Church trusts the mercy and fairness of God to provide for them the possibility of salvation, and the Church believes that God provides that possibility. However, since the Church cannot provide that possibility herself, the Church also cannot provide assurance of salvation.
The Church is bound by the sacraments, and can only offer grace and salvation through the sacraments. God is not so bound, and is free to offer grace and salvation in any way God chooses, such as, for example, through the covenant of Moses with the Jewish people. The Church cannot offer salvation through Jewish law, but God can. The Church cannot offer salvation to the unbaptized of any belief system who have not submitted to Trinitarian water baptism, but God can. We believe that God has promised salvation to all who seek God with a sincere heart, and passages such as Matthew 25:31-46 provide evidence for that belief.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Dan Bryan
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 03:35 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: The Church has always considered the salvation of the unbaptized as a "gray area" in our understanding of the Deposit of Faith.
Dear Rick,
Thanks for your prompt reply.
Does the Church hold any doctrine or position on baptism of/for the dead? The Mormons hold this is a cornerstone in their teaching.
You did not respond related to entrance into the Kingdom of God.
Is these two areas of faith also considered 'gray'?
thanks,
dan
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Be anxious for nothing; we make our own plans, but the Lord determines our steps..............Bible
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 08:39 pm |
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Dan Bryan wrote: CajunRick wrote: The Church has always considered the salvation of the unbaptized as a "gray area" in our understanding of the Deposit of Faith.
Does the Church hold any doctrine or position on baptism of/for the dead? The Mormons hold this is a cornerstone in their teaching.
No. The Church believes that those who die without the opportunity for water baptism but with faith may receive a "baptism of desire", and those who shed their blood for the faith without the opportunity for water baptism may receive a "baptism of blood", but there is no opportunity for salvation after death. At the moment of personal judgement a person is either condemned for all eternity, or saved for all eternity, although the possibility of a need for further purification ("Purgatory") remains. At the point of death and of personal judgement a person who has rejected God will be condemned to hell and no power in heaven or on earth can change the destination.
You did not respond related to entrance into the Kingdom of God. Is these two areas of faith also considered 'gray'?
Some of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church speculated that those who died without baptism but with no personal sin (such as infants) would enjoy eternal bliss but be deprived of the Beatific Vision (the sight of God). However this was never adopted as a dogma, doctrine, or even an official teaching of the Church. In essence, this is the basis of "Limbo". As a child, I was taught that children who died went to "Limbo" where they were cared for by our Blessed Mother Mary but could never see God. There is no real scriptural or theological basis for such a belief, and it was officially repudiated by the Church under Pope Benedict XVI. While still not to the level of dogma or doctrine, it is now an official teaching of the Church that there is reason to believe that children who die unbaptized may experience the Beatific Vision.
Catholics United for the Faith have a Faith Fact that provides historical information about the teaching regarding Limbo and the eternal fate of unbaptized children.
Subsequently, Pope Benedict XVI asked the International Theological Commission to investigate the issue. Their report, The Hopep of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised which was released after receiving the approval of Pope Benedict in January 2007.
Together the reports give the historical and theological basis for today's belief that unbaptized infants may indeed enter the Kingdom of God.
The Catechism covers the necessity of baptism, along with baptism of blood and desire, in paragraphs 1257-1261.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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