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froginarnold
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 11:42 pm |
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I cannot understand the Catholic teaching on purgatory. Honestly, it is heart-breaking for me. In the Baptist and the Lutheran church there is always a spirit of joy and even victory at the time of a fellow Christian's death because of Christ's work on the cross. Now, as I am trying to comfort a Catholic co-worker with terminal cancer, I keep tripping over purgatory. How do Catholics prepare for purgatory? I'm not speaking of penance and indulgences. I'm speaking of your heart and mind while on your death bed wondering how many thousands of years you'll spend being tested by fire. Father Corapi's quip about paying now or paying later haunts me.
A wonderful teaching moment for my son happened at school. He got into some trouble. The school official told him that since he was sorry and apologized to all, he did not have to spend the next day in the school office. On the way home, I told him that he had experienced grace first hand. His behavior had earned him a day in the office, but the principal had let him off. We all sin and deserve death, I told him, but Christ took our punishment on the cross. He gave us grace for all eternity.
Now, my great Catholic friend, at this point, begins to tell me the difference between eternal and temporal punishments. The grace worked out on the cross covered our eternal punishment. We have purgatory to work out the temporal punishment.
I've studied many Catholic resources on this subject, of course, starting within this forum. I've read the OT and NT verses. The Psalmist says that God has removed our sin as far as the east is from the west. There's love in that. There is Christ in that. I don't see Christ's love or his sacrifice in the fires of purgatory. "O, Death, where is they sting?" Purgatory?
Respectfully,
Kim
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 12:50 am |
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froginarnold wrote: I cannot understand the Catholic teaching on purgatory. Honestly, it is heart-breaking for me. In the Baptist and the Lutheran church there is always a spirit of joy and even victory at the time of a fellow Christian's death because of Christ's work on the cross.
Kim, the Catholic teaching is the same. We rejoice in the death of a fellow Christian, even though the joy is tempered by our grief. It is the ultimate victory because Jesus paid the prices for our sins.
Now, as I am trying to comfort a Catholic co-worker with terminal cancer, I keep tripping over purgatory. How do Catholics prepare for purgatory? I'm not speaking of penance and indulgences. I'm speaking of your heart and mind while on your death bed wondering how many thousands of years you'll spend being tested by fire. Father Corapi's quip about paying now or paying later haunts me.
Purgatory is a state of existence beyond time. It is where we are purged in God's love, to free ourselves from attachments to this world that keep us from being perfectly in love with God. Only the perfect can enter the presence of God's Throne, so at some point we need to be purified, "as gold tested in fire," so that we can enter God's presence and join the unending cloud of witnesses.
Protestants use all kind of semantic dances to indicate that we don't need to be perfect. Either we are "saved" so our sins don't matter, or we are covered with Jesus like a dunghill covered in snow so our sins are hidden. Unfortunately, that's not what scripture says. We know we are not perfect at the time of our death, and we know we can't enter God's presence until we are perfected, so when does that perfection take place?
Your co-worker with terminal cancer has been given a blessing. He/she has the opportunity to sever his/her attachments to this world and turn fully toward God. His/her suffering unites him/her to Christ in a way most of us will never experience. As a hospice chaplain, I counseled hundreds of people in similar circumstances, and I can assure you that for people of faith, death is a peaceful, beautiful experience.
Blessed Teresa of Calcutta (Mother Teresa) once said that God only sends suffering to those God loves the most, and she knew that was true because God loved no one more than God's own son, and no one suffered more. So the suffering he/she is experiencing is a sign of God's love more assuredly than anything the rest of us will experience. It is also a final choice for your co-worker to turn toward God in this life so that no further purification will be necessary after death.
But if he/she is not completely successful, he/she has the reassurance of knowing that purification will be completed after death. Purgatory is a state of unimaginable joy because the inhabitants are bathed in God's love, and have the absolutely certain knowledge that their eternal destination is in God's presence. It's not the false assurance of a Protestant who's been taught their sins don't matter, but the guarantee that only God can give.
Now, my great Catholic friend, at this point, begins to tell me the difference between eternal and temporal punishments. The grace worked out on the cross covered our eternal punishment. We have purgatory to work out the temporal punishment.
I've studied many Catholic resources on this subject, of course, starting within this forum. I've read the OT and NT verses. The Psalmist says that God has removed our sin as far as the east is from the west. There's love in that. There is Christ in that. I don't see Christ's love or his sacrifice in the fires of purgatory. "O, Death, where is they sting?" Purgatory?
Let me give you a human analogy.
Suppose a friend of yours steals something from you. He comes to you later and tells you that something very bad happened and he needed the money, and asks your forgiveness. If you believe he is honestly sorry, you probably will. And God forgives us our sins absolutely and unconditionally.
But suppose you have the opportunity to leave him alone in your home a short time later. Do you think you will trust him enough to give him the opportunity to steal from you again? It will most likely be a very long time before you will completely trust him enough to put your possessions at risk again. And that's the "temporal punishment". Remember that your lack of trust is due to the fact that he hasn't proven to you yet that he has changed. You have to be convinced again that he is trustworthy.
I don't like the word "punishment" because I don't see it that way. Sin turns us away from God. When our sins are forgiven, we still need prayer and purification to turn ourselves back toward God. Call it the "temporal effect" if you wish, but that is the reason we do penance. God's forgiveness is absolute, but our repentance is not. We are sinners and we are not capable of pure love of God, so we must constantly redirect ourselves in God's direction.
Tell your friend not to be concerned about purgatory. His/her purgation is taking place right now. If he/she puts his/her trust in God, God will send those he/she misses the most (parents, siblings, friends, angels, etc.) who have gone on before, to bring comfort toward the end, and ultimately to take him/her home into the presence of God's Throne. And the death experience will be more wonderful and beautiful than anything he/she can imagine.
I've seen it too many times to believe that the end of a terminal illness, with proper medical care provided by a good hospice, is anything but an incredibly beautiful thing for people of faith.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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froginarnold
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 04:04 pm |
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Hello, Rick! I hope you and your family are well! Thanks for the reply to my post.
I am mulling over both what you wrote and the Augustine quote, especially the quote.
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Last February, acutally it was Valentine's Day, God just seemed to give me acceptance, belief maybe, some understanding, about many Catholic teachings. I even emailed you directly as I was too embarrassed to post what I was feeling. But purgatory, I haven't quite got the peace yet. You wrote things I've not read or heard before. I will think about them some, and reply again.
Kim
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 11:49 pm |
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KIm,
Let me give you another analogy. When you hurt yourself, you scar. Little hurts cause little or no scarring, big hurts cause big ugly scars. In the same way, we damage ourselves when we sin. Although it is forgiven in the eternal sense, we still have damaged our souls. Purgatory is the place they remove the scars. Sometimes medical treatments that heal or save our lives are painful or unpleasant, so it will be, to remove the scars of sin.
Yet, in purgatory, we will know that it is just a matter of short time before we can join God, when we can just get through it. Just like in labor, when the pain gets bad and seems overwhelming, you also know that the worse it gets, the closer you get to meeting your child face to face. The pain is hard to bear but you know it is not without purpose and that each pain brings you closer to your goal. I have 4 kids and labor with little or no pain killers was not a horrific negative experience. No, I didn't have really short easy labors either. They were 47 hours, 16 hours, 10 hours and 6 hours. I think it will be the same way with purgatory signifigant suffering but with a purpose and goal and in sight.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 7 months and 16
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froginarnold
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 12:21 am |
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When my son tells me he is sincerely sorry for whatever trouble he has gotten himself into, I believe him. I accept his apology. We let it go. The natural (although often stipulated by his mother) consequences of his bad behavior are all that he suffers (and hopefully learns from). There is no scar.
When I tell God that I am sorry, I truly am. I cannot imagine that I will suffer more in purgatory for those sins than I committ now.
Help me to see purgatory as the beautiful experience alluded to by Rick. I want to tell my friend, whom I love so much and cannot even think will suffer further after her death, that purgatory is not about suffering for her sins. She is loving and caring. She is selfless. There's not a thing she wouldn't do for you.
If purgatory is like a cleansing process to enter into heaven, or as Rick said, "a state of unimaginable joy because the inhabitants are bathed in God's love," OK then. Who doesn't love a nice, hot shower. But if it's about suffering, I'm still in need of some help. The Catechism doesn't mention anything about suffering, but it does mention fire. I'm sure my co-worker was taught from the Balitmore Catechism. Do you know what that says?
Thanks for your patience.
Kim
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 12:36 am |
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The "suffering" in purgatory is the knowledge that we have kept ourselves from God's presence by our sinfulness. If you can imagine the most incredibly joyful experience possible then multiply it by infinity, you will begin to understand heaven. Then think that for even a moment you kept yourself away from God's loving presence by your own actions, you can begin to think of the unimaginable pain and suffering you inflict upon yourself by knowing that you kept yourself away from God.
Think of missing Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner with your family because you did something stupid, and instead spending those special days alone, having no one to share them with. That's probably the closest we can get to imagining what it feels like to be in purgatory.
If we accept suffering on earth as a way to draw closer to God, we will purge ourselves from those attachments that stand in the way of our ultimate union with God. Your friend can use his/her illness to draw closer to God now, and be absolutely certain that the suffering he/she undergoes in this life will minimize or eliminate any separation from God at the instant of his/her death. This requires putting him/herself in God's hands with total trust that God's plan is best, even if we have no idea what it is. It's not easy but it's possible.
If you can understand the suffering we experience in purgatory, imagine the infinite suffering in hell of knowing that by our own actions and choices, we permanently keep ourselves away from God. Imagine the most wonderful joy imaginable, and the knowledge that by our choice we will never experience it, and you'll begin to understand hell. All the fire and brimstone cannot begin to equal the suffering caused by our absolute hatred of ourselves caused by our own choices.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 01:33 am |
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The natural consequences of his bad behavior are all that he suffers.
This is precisely what Becky is referring to: the natural consequences of sin. Every sin without exception has its consequences. And in this way every sin leaves its mark, however slight that may be. Little sins leave barely visible traces; major sins cause major wounds, and the scars from these are not trivial. The consequences of sin must be expiated before one is pure, even after one’s sins are forgiven.
The classic biblical text in proof of this is 2 Samuel 12:13–14, where King David is repenting of his sin with Bathsheba: “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the LORD.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.’” The succeeding verses tell how the sin bore its consequences, and how those consequences were expiated.
CCC 1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.
CCC 1018 As a consequence of original sin, man must suffer “bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” (Documents of Vatican II, Gaudium et Spes §18).
CCC 1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life
CCC 1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati).…”
CCC 2448 “In its various forms — material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death — human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin.
Since you ask about it, you can read the Baltimore Catechism here.
David
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froginarnold
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 08:04 pm |
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I don't mean to test your patience. I very much appreciate what you wrote Rick and the quotes from the catechism David listed. I will do some thinking.
Right now, I'm heading to my brother's house. His father-in-law died today after battling liver cancer for 7 years. He was Catholic. I would normally have said that he's in a much better place now and no longer suffering. Can I say that? What would you say? And when you pray with the family, what do you pray?
Kim
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 09:34 pm |
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| God's peace. Purgatory, for all of its penitential anguish, is so much more desirable than our present state of uncertainty and sinfulness that it has no equal or superior state--except Heaven itself. Of course he will be in "a better place." Be at peace, and rejoice for him! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Nov 7th, 2006 10:34 pm |
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froginarnold wrote: Right now, I'm heading to my brother's house. His father-in-law died today after battling liver cancer for 7 years. He was Catholic. I would normally have said that he's in a much better place now and no longer suffering. Can I say that? What would you say? And when you pray with the family, what do you pray?
I would say that I know he is a man of faith, and that God rewards faith with eternal life. He is no longer with us, but he is now with God, looking over us. I would ask him to join us in prayer, and let that prayer be for the comfort of the family. I would remind them that as Jesus travelled the road to Calvary, he told the women, "Weep not for me, but for yourselves and for your children." Jesus knew he was going to something better. He told the women to cry for themselves because they would be left behind grieving his departure.
I would remind them that a piece of their heart had been ripped away. Someday the pain and tears will fade, but the emptiness will never go away. I would remind them that the only reason they grieve is because they loved, and the grief they feel is not for his death, but for their loss.
"Don't be sorry that roses have thorns; be grateful that thorns have roses." Don't be sad because he died; be grateful because he lived.
I would remind them of the only place in scripture where Jesus says who will be placed in heaven at the final judgment and who will go to hell, and that is Matthew 25.31-46. "Whatever you do to the least of my people, you do to me."
I was invited last week to be the guest homilist at a parish memorial service. I'm attaching a copy of my homily to this message. You may find it useful. You (or any other forum user) may use it for your own personal use, but please consider it copyrighted material and do not otherwise use or modify it without my permission.
By the way, my father-in-law died a year ago today. Please remember him and my family in your prayers. His name is Charles; feel free to ask him to pray for you on his actual feast day, which is today (the anniversary of his entry into eternal life).
Attachment: St Hilary Memorial.pdf (Downloaded 5 times) Last edited on Tue Nov 7th, 2006 10:36 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 05:19 pm |
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Hello Everyone,
Purgatory is yet a subject of which I must grapple. I was recently watching Father Groeschel's program where he was teaching about Purgatory. He said that it is a beautiful place, not one of torture and punishment like some Catholic writers in the past have said.
Now when Jesus was dying on the cross, the thief next to Him accepted Him and accepted Christ's death as punishment for his sins. Jesus said to him " This day you will be with me in Paradise." Now just what does that mean? It seems as though this thief experienced complete forgiveness and cleansing from his sins and entered into the joy of his Master immediately after he died. And Jesus specifically said to the thief that he would be with Him that day. This was a man who had lived a sin-filled life and Christ forgave him then and there. So I see this as an example against Purgatory. What say others on this forum?
With all the above said, I do think that many Protestant churches make it seem so easy to get to Heaven. I have never believed in eternal security and think those who teach it are seriously misrepresenting the doctrine of salvation. And just to think that if one says the Sinner's Prayer and, lickety split, Heaven is guaranteed is just absurd. This is one of the issues that I struggle with in the church I currently attend. Most there believe in eternal security. When I have quoted scripture that is contrary to this belief at the women's Bible studies, they seem very uncomfortable. It's almost deathly quiet afterward and no one directly responds to what I have said.
Anyway, I would like to understand this doctrine better. I have been doing my best to understand other Catholic doctrine such as the Holy Eucharist, Papal Succession and Authority, Confession, etc. Purgatory seems a bit more difficult to tackle so thus far, I have put it on the back burner. Still, I know that at some point I must grasp this doctrine if I want to move forward into the Catholic faith.
As always, I appreciate all of your comments.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 08:45 pm |
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God's peace. Darlene, a key to understanding just how blessed a doctrine Purgatory is is see it as being a mere razor's-edge distance from Heaven. It is NOT a "second chance," as it is often misrepresented by ignorant persons, nor is it a place of excruciating punishment akin to Hell, as (sadly) often mirespresented by Catholic teachers of an earlier age. It is rather a place of cleansing, a place where the healing begins. Its "length" depends upon many factors, but our ability to understand this component of Purgatory is limited by our being residents of time rather than eternity.
Ultimately Our Lord determines the period that any soul must remain in Purgatory before admission into Heaven. The thief on the cross may have been a good man who was trapped in the commission of a single sinful act; it may have been possible for the consequences of his sins to be dealt with while he still breathed. We can't know. We must trust that Our Lord is a righteous judge.
The Holy Souls in Purgatory are called "poor souls" because they KNOW they are going to Heaven, but what is keeping them from it is entirely THEIR doing! Such anguish! Yet, such sweet anticipation! Imagine the joy of a soul (and the pain!) as the consequences of each sin which clung so fiercely to their bodies and souls in life are withered and burned off by God's cleansing fire. One less to go! Imagine the joy of seing the last bit of filth drop off and to see Our Lord's face, hearing His loving words, "enter into the joy of your Lord." Such rapture!
Sorry, but I get carried away by thoughts of Heaven. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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froginarnold
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 11:30 pm |
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What sins will stay with me into purgatory? Which ones cling even after my confession?
Kim
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 01:02 am |
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I think you’re confusing the consequences of sin with the sin itself here, Kim. The suffering we experience throughout our lives here on earth is in expiation of those consequences. And if we do not finish our expiation here, it will continue in purgatory until it is all over. The sins are already forgiven; it is for this reason that we are able to enter into expiation rather than punishment, and into heaven rather than hell once we are purified.
David
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 09:38 am |
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OK, Darlene, your turn now. I didn’t have time last night.
Is purgatory a “beautiful place”? I think it is. God made it, just as he made this universe of ours. The other day I placed some astronomical pictures from NASA on my computer’s desktop. (There are hundreds of them freely available on the internet at http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html .) They are of galaxies, nebulae and other stuff in outer space. Really beautiful. I imagine purgatory to be similar in a spiritual way: a glimpse of our God, beauty itself, from very, very far away, filling the heart with such longing that not being able to touch him and be with him is excruciating. So near, and yet so far!
What, you say, about the Good Thief? How is it that Jesus tells him that “this day” he will join our Lord “in paradise”? How does purgatory work in with that? For the answer, you need to know a bit of Jewish lore. You need to understand the meaning of the biblical term Sheol, and how it was interpreted by the rabbis in Jesus’ day.
Sheol is the realm of the dead, equivalent to Hades in Greek and something like “beyond the grave” in English. In other words, it is rather vague in its implications. But the rabbis had worked out a system of seven levels of Sheol, ranging from Hell at the lowest level to Paradise at the highest, according to how one had lived his life on earth. In Jesus’ day, the Persian word Paradise was used popularly as a euphemism for “death.” The term came into their language through contact with the Persians and Medes during the second exile. So basically, Jesus is telling the thief, “This day you will join me in the realm of the dead,” without specifically intending Heaven.
Why not Heaven, if Paradise is the highest level of Sheol? We Christians have co-opted the word Paradise (literally, a walled-in orchard) to mean Heaven. So it is an anachronism to think in this manner. Catholic tradition actually speaks of a domain apart from heaven, hell and even purgatory, the Limbo of the Fathers, which is in scripture and in the ancient rabbinic writings as the “prison” which housed those who lived before the day when Christ opened heaven’s gates to allow the just to enter.
When Jesus died, what happened?
1 Peter 3:18–20: “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.”
The Apostle’s Creed: “And [I believe] in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who… suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead.”
We must not confuse here the word “hell” with the notion of the place of the damned. More recent versions give the correct sense: He “descended to the dead” or “into the nether world.” (“Nether” refers to that which is lower or below, as “The Netherlands” refers to the “low country” in Europe, actually below sea level and protected by dikes.) This sense of the word comes from Old and Middle English, since it is cognate with the German word Hell, meaning “light.” (You will recall, too, the Greek word Helios, meaning “sun.”) The creed, being a traditional text, has preserved the old meaning.
So Jesus did not go straight to heaven and in fact did not rise from the dead until the third day. The scripture passage cited shows that he visited the “spirits in prison” — that is, in Sheol, or the Limbo of the Fathers, to proclaim (“preach”) the redemption and the opening of heaven. “Who formerly did not obey” is an indication that they were there to expiate the wrongs they had committed during their earthly life. Hence, it is Purgatory.
So where did the Good Thief go? To the Paradise level of Sheol, not straight to heaven. We may piously consider, then, that his stay in Purgatory was short (hence his assignment to the highest level), since he had suffered intensely for his crimes when he was tortured to death by crucifixion. What we suffer here on earth counts toward the expiation of the consequences of our sins. It is only what may be left over that requires our passage through Purgatory in the next life before our final entry into Heaven.
Let me know if this explanation is insufficient.
David
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Jan 10th, 2007 07:35 pm |
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Believe it or not, I went from being saved, to fearing hell when I returned to my catholic faith. Then, I actually began to fear purgatory, because I'm pretty sure I won't be going to hell, as I am doing my best to please God, so I figure, thus far, I am destined to heaven. This is not presumption, but hope. But, I became really afraid of spending eternity in purgatory. At this moment, I am finally at peace with it, knowing it is a mere pit stop on the way to my Lord.
Here are two examples I have seen here in the old forum.
1. A boy breaks his neighbor's window, apologizes, and is forgiven. Yet, even after forgiveness, it is still his duty (through his parents which he may have to pay back) to fix the window. He isn't forgiven BECAUSE he fixed the window, but it still must be done. (And you may want to apply Jesus to the parents fixing the window for the kid, but the kid will still have a time out or lose some allowance, or some such thing).
2. You travel the long dusty road to meet the king, and arrive tired and filthy. Before you actually MEET the king, you shower, rest, change your clothes. You do not deserve to meet the king any more than you did an hour ago, yet you are more prepared - more appropriate.
One of the examples is kind of punishmenty, one is more hot showery, but they both apply. When we die, if we are granted our salvation at our immediate judgement, we are then cleansed by God. Don't forget that it could take a second or a thousand years of our time (which I have found kind of means nothing, since God and heaven are outside of time). And I think the "pain" is really anguish of knowing we have not pleased God. Just like the anguish we feel in our earthly life when we know we haven't pleased God. I don't think it's "judgement" and being punished for our sins, so much is it's atonement (at-one-ment) of being brought closer to our Father, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually then we can be on earth.
I'll give you my recent personal example, which I am just coming to understand. Knowing what I have been through the last over a year, with my miscarriage and my marital situation - I would never wish the pain I've been in on anyone, and I would have given ANYTHING to not have gone through it. Yet, today, I have lost the fearful attachment of losing my husband and am able to love God (especially in my actions) more freely because of that. The pain in me has brought at-one-ment with my Father. I guess, knowing that (and still in pain), I see the merit in my suffering. And now, I kind of look forward to "time" in purgatory where God can just make me love Him more and more, without me fighting Him all the time.
Love,
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Juan
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 03:10 am |
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I cannot understand the Catholic teaching on purgatory.
No problem. As you said later on, believe that you may understand.
Honestly, it is heart-breaking for me.
It shouldn't be. Scripture says:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
So, it seems to me that it isn't purgatory which you don't understand, but suffering and its relationship to our salvation.
1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
In the Baptist and the Lutheran church there is always a spirit of joy and even victory at the time of a fellow Christian's death because of Christ's work on the cross. Now, as I am trying to comfort a Catholic co-worker with terminal cancer, I keep tripping over purgatory. How do Catholics prepare for purgatory?
We don't. We prepare for heaven. Purgatory is an unexpected stop prepared by God, in His Mercy, for those who love Him and want to be united to Him, but are not pure enough to do so:
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I'm not speaking of penance and indulgences. I'm speaking of your heart and mind while on your death bed wondering how many thousands of years you'll spend being tested by fire. Father Corapi's quip about paying now or paying later haunts me.
It shouldn't. We were brought into this world to suffer and to expiate the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus was our model whom we follow:
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Note how the Apostles rejoiced at the opportunity to suffer for Christ:
Acts 5:41
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
A wonderful teaching moment for my son happened at school. He got into some trouble. The school official told him that since he was sorry and apologized to all, he did not have to spend the next day in the school office. On the way home, I told him that he had experienced grace first hand. His behavior had earned him a day in the office, but the principal had let him off. We all sin and deserve death, I told him, but Christ took our punishment on the cross. He gave us grace for all eternity.
You missed the point. Your son was sorry and apologized to all. He paid for his sin by apologizing. This is what the Principle accepted as payment rather than a day in the school office.
In the same way, many people go straight to heaven because they pay for their sins on earth during their life.
Now, my great Catholic friend, at this point, begins to tell me the difference between eternal and temporal punishments. The grace worked out on the cross covered our eternal punishment. We have purgatory to work out the temporal punishment.
If there is any left over. Not all go to purgatory.
I've studied many Catholic resources on this subject, of course, starting within this forum. I've read the OT and NT verses. The Psalmist says that God has removed our sin as far as the east is from the west. There's love in that. There is Christ in that. I don't see Christ's love or his sacrifice in the fires of purgatory. "O, Death, where is they sting?" Purgatory?
You missed the reference to purgatory in this verse:
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.So when sin is swallowed up, either in this life of expiation or in the next, in purgatory, that is when death is destroyed and we rise to eternal life.
Respectfully,
Kim
Sincerely,
Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 03:45 am |
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When my son tells me he is sincerely sorry for whatever trouble he has gotten himself into, I believe him. I accept his apology.
God also accepts ours.
We let it go.
Really?
The natural (although often stipulated by his mother) consequences of his bad behavior are all that he suffers (and hopefully learns from).
Lets break this down a bit.
1. The natural consequences. What do you speak of here? Did he fall and hurt himself? Pain would be a natural consequence.
2. Did he hit another child for no reason?
Do you leave this type of behavior unpunished?
3. Your stipulations. Does he enjoy hearing them? Or does he suffer through them impatiently?
4. In fact, your stipulations are a form of purification. You are telling him how not to get into trouble in the future.
This is all part of the purgation process which ends either in our natural life or in purgatory.
There is no scar.
You see no scar.
When I tell God that I am sorry, I truly am. I cannot imagine that I will suffer more in purgatory for those sins than I committ now.
A saint doesn't shun suffering at the hands of God:
Hebrews 12:7
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Help me to see purgatory as the beautiful experience alluded to by Rick. I want to tell my friend, whom I love so much and cannot even think will suffer further after her death, that purgatory is not about suffering for her sins. She is loving and caring. She is selfless. There's not a thing she wouldn't do for you.
I refuse. As a Catholic, I embrace suffering:
1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one's brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one's cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.
793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, "until Christ be formed" in them. "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."
1521 Union with the passion of Christ. By the grace of this sacrament the sick person receives the strength and the gift of uniting himself more closely to Christ's Passion: in a certain way he is consecrated to bear fruit by configuration to the Savior's redemptive Passion. Suffering, a consequence of original sin, acquires a new meaning; it becomes a participation in the saving work of Jesus.
If purgatory is like a cleansing process to enter into heaven, or as Rick said, "a state of unimaginable joy because the inhabitants are bathed in God's love," OK then. Who doesn't love a nice, hot shower. But if it's about suffering, I'm still in need of some help. The Catechism doesn't mention anything about suffering,
I don't know who said that the Catechism doesn't mention suffering. Please refer to the quotes above, which are three selections out of four pages worth with the word "suffering" in them.
but it does mention fire. I'm sure my co-worker was taught from the Balitmore Catechism. Do you know what that says?
Q. 718. Why does Our Lord speak in particular of poverty, meekness, sorrow, desire for virtue, mercy, purity, peace and suffering?
A. Our Lord speaks in particular of poverty, meekness, sorrow, desire for virtue, mercy, purity, peace and suffering because these are the chief features in His own earthly life; poverty in His birth, life and death; meekness in His teaching; sorrow at all times. He eagerly sought to do good, showed mercy to all, recommended chastity, brought peace, and patiently endured suffering.
Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/index.html
Thanks for your patience.
Kim
Sincerely,
Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 03:55 am |
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Hello Everyone,
Purgatory is yet a subject of which I must grapple. I was recently watching Fa
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