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Ali
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| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 11:50 am |
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Being raised in the JW faith, you do not have (generally speaking) a hope of a heavenly resurrection. The teaching is that a few will be in Heaven, the rest of us will be on a paradise earth, living perfect forever. One way they back this up is by saying that Jews of the Old Testement do not have a heavenly hope as well.
How true is that, if at all? What is the Jewish belief for the future after the Messiah comes? And, Does that differ at all from their beliefs of today?
Ali
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Candlemass
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, CC for life! |
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 12:01 pm |
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| The way I understand it from the scriptures is that we will all be given our bodies back at the resurection, Earth will be our home, Eden restored. Not sure about all Jews, the bible says that the pharisies believed in the resurection of the dead, but the sadducees did not.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Ali
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 12:12 pm |
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Candlemass wrote: The way I understand it from the scriptures is that we will all be given our bodies back at the resurection, Earth will be our home, Eden restored.
Eerily that is the JW teaching. When do you think that will happen?
I guess what I'm asking is what the Jews believe happen to you when you die? JW's teach that it's like a long sleep until the earthly resurrection. Do Jews have any hope of ever going to heaven?
Ali
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 12:44 pm |
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| Well JW don't have it all wrong, I don't believe in "soul sleep" as it is espoused though.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 12:48 pm |
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Candlemass wrote: Well JW don't have it all wrong, I don't believe in "soul sleep" as it is espoused though.
Oh, trust me, they do! (said in a light way) 
Ali
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 01:02 pm |
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| Every religion or cult has some truth to it.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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NanaR
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| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 04:58 pm |
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Ali wrote: Being raised in the JW faith, you do not have (generally speaking) a hope of a heavenly resurrection. The teaching is that a few will be in Heaven, the rest of us will be on a paradise earth, living perfect forever. One way they back this up is by saying that Jews of the Old Testement do not have a heavenly hope as well.
How true is that, if at all? What is the Jewish belief for the future after the Messiah comes? And, Does that differ at all from their beliefs of today?
Ali
Ali:
I think some of this is covered in the deuterocanonical books. For example, Macabees talks about praying for the dead. Now there wouldn't be much use in praying for the dead if one did not believe in a resurrection.
I've read somewhere that at least some Jews believed in an immortal soul but were unsure about the resurrection of the body (which is what I think the difference between the Pharisees and the Saducees on this was).
That is why it was so important for Jesus to show people his resurrected and glorified body before he ascended to heaven.
I have also read that Jews believed the souls of the faithful dead to be residing in a place called "the bosom of Abraham". This would explain why the Jews had no trouble understanding the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus -- and why JWs have so much trouble with that story.
Yes, the JWs claim and state dogmatically that the Jews believed in an Earthly resurrection and did not believe in an immortal soul. But like so many aspects of JW dogma, they are WAY off base...
I found an interesting "Catechism for Jewish Children" that shows that at least some branches of Judaism currently believe in the immortality of the soul:
http://www.jewish-history.com/catechism/catech09.htm
I'll be interested to see what else might be contributed here.
In expectation,
Ruth
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When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 06:18 pm |
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Jewish beliefs developed over time, Ali, just as Christian beliefs have. It started out vague and only began to solidify during the exile. The general Jewish belief at the time of Christ was more or less that of the Pharisees. (The Sadducees were a much smaller sect.) And as you can see by the bible (Matthew 22:23–33 / Mark 12:18–27, where Jesus sides with the Pharisees on the issue of the resurrection, Luke 14:14, and again in John 5:25–29; Martha with Jesus in John 11:23–24; and Paul in many places, notably 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 6:5 and Acts 23–24), Christian belief is based on the Jewish belief. Certain heretical beliefs (such as that mentioned in 2 Timothy 2:17–18; see also St. Irenaeus Against the Heresies, passim) were eschewed by the early Christians, as they probably would have been among the Jews in general.
The book of Job, a late work in biblical chronology, is quite specific about the resurrection of the flesh: “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another” (Job 19:26–27).
Regarding the idea of earth being our home and Eden being restored, Isaiah contradicts this when he speaks of “new heavens and new earth” in Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22; this is echoed in 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1–2. Jerusalem was not established in Eden, but in Canaan.
From the Navarre Bible Commentary on Isaiah 65:17–18:
Here we have a clear and succinct description of the new state of affairs at the end of time — “new heavens and a new earth.” As at the creation, God in person, and he alone, will create them; but now they will have a heavenly form, for joy and gladness became very influential in Jewish religious thinking as can be seen from apocryphal texts (cf. 2 Ezra 6:16), and even more so in Christian tradition: in the Revelation to John, these are the opening words of the vision about the definitive and full establishment of the Kingdom of God (Rev 21:1–22:5). And the Second Letter of Peter urges the faithful to transform the world in preparation for the coming of “new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells” (2 Pet 3:13).
The commentary then cites the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1042–1044 and 1047, which fleshes out what is revealed by the phrase “new heavens and new earth.”
The Navarre Bible Commentary also says, concerning Revelation 21:1–5:
…The imagery of a new heaven and a new earth (taken in a physical sense) was very much in vogue in Jewish writing around the time of the Apocalypse [the book of Revelation] (cf. 1 Enoch 72:1; 91:16), and is probably reflected also in 2 Peter 3:10–13 and Matthew 19:28. Scripture nowhere indicates what form the new heaven and the new earth will take. However, what is clear is that there will be a radical “renewal” of the present cosmos, contaminated as it is by the sin of man and the powers of evil (cf. Gen 2:8–3:24; Rom 8:9–13); through this renewal all creation will be “recapitulated” in Christ (cf. Eph 1:10; Col 1:16–20). No reference is made to the sea, probably because in Jewish literature it symbolized the abyss, the abode of demonic powers hostile to God.
Those who will inhabit this new world (symbolized by the Holy City, the new Jerusalem) are the entire assembly of the saved, the entire people of God (cf. vv. 12–14 [of Rev 21]) — a holy people disposed to live in loving communion with God (as reflected by the image of the adorned bride: cf. vv. 2, 9).
It is my belief that the Jews of ancient times believed explicitly what the early Christians did regarding the resurrection, but then the Christian faith grew organically from its basis on Christ as the summation of all things, so that now, two thousand years later, we have a fuller and richer understanding of the doctrine. Nothing has “changed” in the basic belief; I have seen Orthodox Jewish (historical successors of the Pharisees of old) tracts giving a beautiful, almost-Christian view of the afterlife. It is just now, in the Catholic understanding, augmented by the idea of life in Christ.
David
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 07:06 pm |
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I have a paper about this:
The Development of Old Testament and Jewish Views of Sheol, the Afterlife, and Eternal Punishment
I have also written on soul sleep:
The False Doctrine of "Soul Sleep" and Prayers To, For, and From the Dead: the Biblical Evidence Confirms Catholic Belief
As for the JW denial of hell, they have many biblical passages to explain:
Biblical Evidence for an Eternal Hell
For anyone who is interested, I did a lengthy treatise about JWs, a dialogue, and a radio talk:
Jehovah's Witnesses: "The Apocalyptic Arians": A Biblical and Historical Critique (+ Part Two)
Dialogue with a Jehovah's Witness on the Deity of Christ and Trinitarianism: Direct Statements of Jesus' Equality With God the Father: Jesus Own Words (+ Part Two)
Radio Talk on Jehovah's Witnesses From My Protestant Days (1989)
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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hpj0828
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 01:31 pm |
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Hi Ali,
I'm a Messianic Jewish believer. Thought I'd add my 2 cents worth. David and Dave have done an excellent job in summarizing Jewish beliefs at the time of Jesus. Also, they have pointed out that many of the Orthodox Jews today still retain a belief in heaven and hell in an afterlife. I thought I'd comment on your question of what Jews today believe about these things.
Both heaven (called Gan Eden--the Garden of Eden) and hell (called Gehinnom--the Valley of Hinnom) are clearly taught in the Mishnah, Talmud and the Midrashim which were the accepted works of Rabbinic interpretation for centuries.
However, after the philosophical movement called the Enlightenment in Europe, which began in the late 18th C CE, many Jews no longer revered the Bible and the Talmud as had their forebears. Similarly, many Christians lost faith in the Bible during this same period. There was a rationalist reaction which emerged from the Enlightenment in which miracles in the Bible, concepts like heaven and hell, beliefs in angels and demons were discarded as examples of the superstitions of primitive peoples.
How did Jewish thought react to the Enlightenment?
Jewish literature is divided into two broad genres: halakhah and aggadah.
Halakhah are rabbinical interpretations which set forth specific, practical legal obligations for Jews. These are considered binding on the Jews of today, only by the Orthodox. An example of halakhah would be regulations on how far a Jew may walk from his home on the Sabbath without this being considered "work" which would violate the prohibition to work on the Sabbath. Even today, among Orthodox communities, you will observe the Orthodox walking to their neighborhood synagogue on Saturday, rather than using cars.
Aggadah are rabbinical interpretations that explore the theological meaning of the Scriptures and speculate on things like heaven and hell, angels and demons, etc. Since these interpretations are not practical laws which must be followed in daily life, there is no obligation to believe them. Jewish tradition encouraged the widest possible speculation on these topics. As such, there is no normative "orthodoxy" of doctrine within the Jewish tradition. Instead, there is "orthopraxy"-- or orthodoxy of practice--this is embodied in the halakhah.
Since beliefs in heaven and hell fall under the category of aggadah, they are left up to the discretion of the individual, even within the Orthodox camp. There is no legal obligation to believe in heaven and hell.
This background prepared for the Modern era in Jewish thought (19th C CE through today) in which modern secular Jews have lost any semblence of coherence in their beliefs of the afterlife. There is no necessary continuity between Jewish belief on these subjects today and the teachings of the great rabbis of the past, except among some of the Orthodox. Secular Jews today represent the vast majority of Jews, both in the US and in Israel--80%+.
Many of these Jews have no personal knowledge of their communal past. They have no knowledge of the Bible or Jewish belief prior to their own generation. Unfortunately, many of today's "Christians" have abandoned the treasures of their faith and lead secular lives with little or no knowledge of Christian beliefs.
So, most Jews today reject a belief in hell and retain some vague belief in some kind of afterlife. Many Jews today do not believe in an afterlife at all.
The tragedy of the Holocaust also led many Jews to question belief in the existence of God. How could God allow such suffering? One possible answer: God does not exist.
In practice, someone of Jewish family descent can be accepted in the larger Jewish community today with any sort of religious belief at all, except belief in Jesus as the Messiah! However, even this has changed dramatically since the 1960s. The Jesus movement among the hippies of the late 60s spawned the Messianic Jewish movement, including such evangelistic groups as Jews for Jesus. It is now estimated that somewhere between 1 - 2 million of the 14-16 million Jews worldwide believe that Jesus is the Messiah. In general, such Messianic Jews are officially still shunned by most of the larger Jewish community and not considered authentic "Jews".
However, in my personal experience, I have been accepted as authentically Jewish, despite my belief in Jesus, by Jewish colleagues in my workplace. There is increased openness to Jews believing in Jesus due to the many mixed marriages between Christians and Jews in which such families observe both traditions. Clearly, the times are changing!
Shalom!
Henry
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HPJ
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 05:47 pm |
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| That is indeed a big change, Henry. I'm delighted to hear about this.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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