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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 09:07 pm |
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Catholics (and post-Luther Lutherans and most Protestants), believe that the soul of man is immortal and conscious at all times, either in Sheol / Hades, purgatory, heaven, or hell, and never ceases being conscious. I recently defended this belief from Scripture. Nor is this only a "Catholic thing." It's a biblical thing (which is precisely why the vast majority of Christians have believed it). Hence, John Calvin soundly refuted the contrary error from Scripture, in 1536. Luther wrote in 1542:
But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body.
(Christian Songs Latin and German, For Use at Funerals, from: Works of Martin Luther, Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press, 1932, Vol. 6, 287-288) Based on the premise of this unscriptural denial (abominated even by fellow "reformer" John Calvin), he goes on in the very next paragraph to blast purgatory, prayers for the dead, etc. (note the important, revealing connecting word "accordingly"):
Accordingly we have driven the pestilential abominations from our churches, such as vigils, masses for the dead, processions, purgatory, and all other mockery and hocus pocus on behalf of the dead. We have abolished all these and have cleaned them out thoroughly and do not want our churches to be houses of wailing and places of mourning any longer . . . Nor do we sing any funereal hymns or doleful songs over our dead and at the graves, but comforting hymns, of the forgiveness of sins, of rest, of sleep, of life, and of the resurrection of Christians who have died . . . Luther alludes to this causal connection on the next page (p. 289), referring to "purgatory with its torment and satisfaction, on account of which their dead can neither sleep nor rest."
If men are only conscious after being resurrected to eternal life in heaven, they would be in no need of our prayers. Moreover, clearly you can't have purgatory with immaterial conscious souls, because that is precisely what Luther has denied. He denies one key premise of purgatory; therefore, purgatory goes along with it because it can't sensibly exist without souls in it. Nor can souls be prayed for if there is no conscious state other than heaven or hell, because those in hell are beyond prayer and those in heaven have no need of it whatsoever.
Others have seen the relationship between Luther's erroneous soul sleep affinities and his rejection of purgatory. For example, Bruce A. Demarest and Gordon Russell Lewis, in their book, Integrative Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1994, three-volumes-in-one edition), state on Vol. III, p. 451:
Reacting to the Roman doctrine of purgatory, Luther on occasion described the intermediate state as a kind of sleep. At death the believer sleeps in the grave awaiting the Last Judgment rather than enduring purgatory . . . in that state the soul is less than fully conscious . . . Luther was not dogmatic on this issue, and in later writings he appears to have softened this position.
[my emphasis; three passages from Luther were also cited and can be seen online, but I didn't include them here because I couldn't access the documentation on Google Book Search] Likewise, Lutheran Luther scholar Julius Köstlin comments (my emphases):
The scriptural mode of referring to "the sleep of the dead" inclined him to adopt the theory of a sleep of the soul, in which it shall not know where it is until the Day of Judgment. This, he acknowledges in 1522 to Amsdorf, who asked him for his opinion on the subject. . . . he did not venture to regard such a state of sleep as universal. It merely appears probable to him that the majority of the dead are in such a state. The inclination to this view must also have helped to undermine for Luther the very foundations of the theory of purgatory. Thus, he writes in the letter to Amsdorf, that purgatory is for him not a place, but an inner condition, namely, a foretaste of hell in this present life, such as Jesus, David, Job and many others experienced (in this world). . . . As opposed to the theory, that all souls tarrying between heaven and earth are in purgatory, he again points to the sleep which may be their condition.
(The Theology of Luther: In Its Historical Development and Inner Harmony, Philadelphia: Lutheran Publication Society, 1897, Vol. I, p. 471) The aforementioned letter to Nicholas Amsdorf was dated 13 January 1522. Here is a portion, from another Protestant biography of Luther (my emphasis):
As to purgatory, I think it a very uncertain thing. It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment.
(The Life of Luther, Jules Michelet; translated by William Hazlitt, London: H.G. Bohn, second edition, 1862, p. 133) So in one fell swoop, Luther eliminates purgatory and prayer for the dead, based on a denial (with some exceptions) of the immortality of the soul, itself based on fallacious and shoddy biblical exegesis and false equation of biblical Christianity with pagan Greek philosophy. This would follow logically, even if Luther had not expressly connected the two things in his own words, but since he himself has made the association, we know that he was aware of his own rationale (at least in part) for ditching these previous Christian beliefs. Luther may be a bit unsure about soul sleep, but he is flat-out certain that purgatory and prayers for the dead are abominations, based on his unsure opinion on soul sleep.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Candlemass Member

| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 453 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, CC for life! |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 09:33 pm |
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He did have kind of a cool hat though. 
____________________ "For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 10:06 pm |
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Well, I always liked the guy, despite our many disagreements. 
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick Network Helper

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 02:16 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Well, I always liked the guy, despite our many disagreements. 
Gee, Dave, you've been 39 longer than Cliff!
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 04:09 pm |
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LOL! 
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Candlemass Member

| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 453 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, CC for life! |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 04:32 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: Dave Armstrong wrote: Well, I always liked the guy, despite our many disagreements. 
Gee, Dave, you've been 39 longer than Cliff!
Dave is the ancient of years! 
____________________ "For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
| Status: |
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Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 06:29 pm |
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Yep, I've been putting down 49 as my age, while you and I know it is really 490. Luther died when I was 28: more than enough time to get to know the character.
Along these lines, I portrayed Luther as saved in heaven and now a Catholic, in one of my fictional dialogues. It was great fun writing that:
The Ghost of Martin Luther Interviews James Swan About Dastardly, Wascally Luther-Basher Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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