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brian
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Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 01:48 am |
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| If Jesus were to returnand judge the world, what would happen to those who were still living that needed to spend some "time" in purgatory? is purgatory still going to exist when Jesus returns? How could someone go there to expiate sins if there were no purgatory left to go to?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 01:56 am |
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brian wrote: If Jesus were to returnand judge the world, what would happen to those who were still living that needed to spend some "time" in purgatory? is purgatory still going to exist when Jesus returns? How could someone go there to expiate sins if there were no purgatory left to go to?
Purgatory will cease to exist at the final judgement. We don't know the answer to the other questions, except to point to Matthew 25:31-46. You'll note that Jesus mentions that all will be sent to either heaven or hell depending on how they have provided for the least of God's people. We presume that somehow the rest will take care of itself.
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Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 07:57 pm |
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Brian, isn’t this time just before the end of the world supposed to be when the great persecution takes place? Isn’t there supposed to be a lot of suffering among the faithful just before the final curtain on creation? We expiate our sins by our acceptance of the suffering it causes, whether here on earth or later in purgatory. How, then, do you think that there will be people who need just a little more cleansing in purgatory? I believe God has this whole thing worked out to the very last detail, even if we humans do not.
David
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hpj0828
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 06:46 pm |
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Hi,
I have just registered with CHN. 
Please forgive me if I am asking the same questions that many others have asked in the past, however they are new for me!
I am very interested in the Catholic faith and am asking God to show me whether it the right place for me and my family. We have been in evangelical churches for many years.
Can you please explain purgatory? What is its purpose? Why isn't it mentioned in the Bible?
I resonate to your response that the extreme trials that will occur around the time of Jesus' return will purge us of many sins...
I appreciate your taking the time to get me started in this dialog.
Shalom!
Henry
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 08:09 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: Can you please explain purgatory? What is its purpose? Why isn't it mentioned in the Bible?
Purgatory is a place of final purification and preparation for entry into the presence of the Most High God. It is the "lobby" of heaven. And it is rooted not only in Scripture but in Jewish tradition.
You'll find an article on Purgatory here. Thank God it exists. Revelations 21.27 tells us that only the perfect can enter the presence of God, so if there was no place of final purgation, there would be no hope for any of us.
Many Christian doctrines are not mentioned explicitly in Scripture. Even the Trinity is not mentioned, although if you look for it, you can find ample scriptural evidence. The same is true of Purgatory, as the article above demonstrates.
If you'd like some additional references, you'll find a Faith Fact from Catholics United for the Faith here, and a tract from Catholic Answers here, an quotes from the Church Fathers here. You'll note the reference to the Mourner's Kaddish as a reference to the belief in Purgatory in Orthodox Judaism.
Finally, you'll find the article on Purgatory in the Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent. This article is from the 1917 edition of the encyclopedia, but the essential beliefs of Catholic doctrines have never changed.
After you have read those articles, we would welcome your questions here.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Apr 1st, 2007 09:24 pm |
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If Jesus were to returnand judge the world, what would happen to those who were still living that needed to spend some "time" in purgatory?
That is an interesting question.
If we assume that the "endtimes" are still to come and that we have not already lived through the persecutions and tribulations, then when Jesus returns in the clouds and we are raptured and transformed in the twinkling of an eye it is possible that:
1. David is correct and the purification took place during the tribulation and suffering.
or
2. it is possible that the transformation in the twinkling of an eye is "purgatory".
As I understand it, purgatory is not a place in which one spends some time being purified.
Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) said:
… Purgatory is understood in a properly Christian way when it is grasped christologically, in terms of the Lord himself as the judging fire which transforms us and conforms us to his own glorified body ….…A person’s entry into the realm of manifest reality is an entry into his definitive destiny and thus an immersion in eschatological fire. The transforming “moment” of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of “short” or “long” duration on the basis of temporal measurments derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The “temporal measure” of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. …
http://billcork.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/purgatory/
So, purgatory as a place is just a convenient way to explain the process or state of purification.
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
That is why our indulgenced prayers are no longer defined in terms of time but in terms of "plenary (i.e. full)" or "partial".
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance. What is an indulgence?
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints." "An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.
is purgatory still going to exist when Jesus returns?
Considering what we've just said, the question might be better phrased, "will purgatory still be occuring when Jesus returns?"
My answer is "Yes". Purgatory will exist or continue until everyone who is in the sea or in hell either enters life or is cast into the Pool of Fire.
Apocalypse 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.
How could someone go there to expiate sins if there were no purgatory left to go to?
By this time, no one will be left on earth because there will be no earth to be left upon:
Apocalypse 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. 2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.
Sincerely,
Juan
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brian
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 01:25 pm |
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I like these explanations of purgatory. Sometiems I run across old fashioned explanations and they seem a bit scarier. As far as needing to be perfect, my evangelical background answer would be that somehow we are already spiritually perfect in Chrsit and it is the flesh that has been crucified but we still walk in that is imperfect, but in heaven we will not be attached to that particular "flesh" not to say we weill have a new body, but that the corruptible will pass away and the concept of flesh will be done with leaving only the truest part of us that is perfect now. Even in Catholic thinknig i sometimes rn into references to the true self versus our weak nature. So the struggle with me is understanding how we are saved forgiven yet still carry around even venial sin. If God can not know sin intimately, how can He know us intimately when venial sin is still attached to us. I thought a relationship with God was like being given that inward transformation which makes us perfect in Christ, and when we die the imperfect will instantly pass away and we wil have our new self only unhindered.
Perhaps evangelicals do believe in purgatory, but they would consider it a much more seemless transition.
Of course I am a new catholic so it is taking me time to figure these things out like our personal identity infused righteousness yet imperfection.
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hpj0828
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 06:39 pm |
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Thanks for your reply. I will enjoy looking into your references. I especially liked the reference to the Mourner's Kaddish.
Are you familiar with the text of the Mourner's Kaddish? It is very similar to the Lord's prayer and contains no explicit prayer for the dead. Orthodox repeat it for 11 months after the death of parents, believing this to earn merit for the deceased during a 12 month purification period for the dead in the realm of Gehenna. The Orthodox belief that there is a 12 month period of purification after death appears to come from the Zohar, a 12th C CE text.
I have always felt uncomfortable with the Zohar, since it is the founding text of the Kabbalah with its occult theology and practices. I have always felt that there was an inherent conflict between the Kabbalah and the Dt. 18 proscriptions against occult practices. Just because a spiritual doctrine or practice has Jewish antiquity does not mean it is valid. The Jews of 1st Temple times worshipped Baal and Ashtoreth. Undoubtedly, they had a developed liturgy and practice for this activity, yet it is condemned in Scripture! Consider also that Rabbinic tradition denies that Jesus is the Messiah--Is such tradition spiritually valid? I will ask some similar questions in a post on Scripture.
Thank you for being a blessing to me!
Henry
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 06:53 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: Are you familiar with the text of the Mourner's Kaddish? It is very similar to the Lord's prayer and contains no explicit prayer for the dead. Orthodox repeat it for 11 months after the death of parents, believing this to earn merit for the deceased during a 12 month purification period for the dead in the realm of Gehenna. The Orthodox belief that there is a 12 month period of purification after death appears to come from the Zohar, a 12th C CE text.
I admit that I know very little about Jewish prayers and customs, and I regret that lack of knowledge. However, even if the prayer does not mention the dead, its use as you describe it indicates a time of purification after death and the effectiveness of prayer for the dead, and that is consistent with the Catholic belief in Purgatory.
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Rick Luquette
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Juan
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 11:17 pm |
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I like these explanations of purgatory. Sometiems I run across old fashioned explanations and they seem a bit scarier.
I don't want to scare you, but you must remember that to God, one day is like a thousand years.
As far as needing to be perfect, my evangelical background answer would be that somehow we are already spiritually perfect in Chrsit and it is the flesh that has been crucified but we still walk in that is imperfect,
I agree with you.
but in heaven we will not be attached to that particular "flesh" not to say we weill have a new body, but that the corruptible will pass away and the concept of flesh will be done with leaving only the truest part of us that is perfect now.
John 6 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.
1 Corinthians 15 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:
Even in Catholic thinknig i sometimes rn into references to the true self versus our weak nature. So the struggle with me is understanding how we are saved forgiven yet still carry around even venial sin.
God isn't like us. God is just.
The symbol of marriage is a very apt comparison. When husband gets angry at wife because she doesn't make dinner, does a loving husband immediately sue for a divorce? How many men have done so even for less.
But God doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. HE saves us. He purifies us so that the venial sin is removed from our soul, purged. And we are then perfect to enter heaven.
If God can not know sin intimately, how can He know us intimately when venial sin is still attached to us.
God does not sin nor does He cause sin. But He permits sin to bring a greater good from it.
As far as "knowing sin intimately", I don't know what you mean. God is omniscient. He knows everything more intimately than you or I or even Satan. We are creatures, He is the Creator. He is not affected by sin, He is not affected by anything. He is transcendant:
I thought a relationship with God was like being given that inward transformation which makes us perfect in Christ, and when we die the imperfect will instantly pass away and we wil have our new self only unhindered.
I would say, that if Purgatory is instantaneous, you would be correct. However, I'd first lke to know whether you thought this up yourself or if you are interpreting a Church Father? Or is this Evangelical doctrine?
Perhaps evangelicals do believe in purgatory, but they would consider it a much more seemless transition.
Which Evangelical believes in purgatory?
Of course I am a new catholic so it is taking me time to figure these things out like our personal identity infused righteousness yet imperfection.
You need to study the doctrine of faith and works.
You must wrap your head around the idea that faith is a work.
You must realize that works are transformative. Evil works (mortal sins) make us evil. They are a complete denial of Grace. Good works are cooperation with Grace. Venial sins are an incomplete cooperation with Grace. That is why they are called works of straw (1 Cor 3:11-15). They are burned away by the Consuming Fire.
If you look at real life, you will see how the Catholic doctrine is a perfect explanation for true human nature. Rarely is someone perfected with one profession of faith. It takes time and sacrifice to unite oneself more and more perfectly with God:
2 Timothy 2 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
Hebrews 12 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct?
Sincerely,
Juan
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brian
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 11:38 am |
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I meant that evangelicals might agree to purgatory not by name but by the fact that somehow we will be changed and the imperfect will pass away.
My only question I suppose is, how God can unite himself to us in our hearts or through the Eucharist if we are still guilty of any sin? As an evangelical we sort of believed that God can not be united to sin. That he can only accept perfect people. That is probably why we believed in eternal security and a sort of permanent state of perfection, and when we sin we blame it on the flesh and say that we are inwardly somehow still holy. We thought the sin does hinder us spiritually in some way, but does not change the "rightousness of God" we have been given through faith.
Anyway, like I said, the only thing I am strugling with now that I see things differently, is if it is a problem to have a completely Holy God united to people who are still tainted by sin even if only venial? How can God associate His perfect self so closely with sin in us?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 12:38 pm |
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brian wrote: My only question I suppose is, how God can unite himself to us in our hearts or through the Eucharist if we are still guilty of any sin? As an evangelical we sort of believed that God can not be united to sin. That he can only accept perfect people.
If God could not condone sin, Jesus could never have eaten with tax collectors and prostitutes. Jesus became man so that we might become God!
From the Catechism:
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."
God has dealt with sinners throughout history, from Adam and Eve to you and me. God enters our presence constantly; without God, we literally would not exist. However, sin is restricted to this existence. In the afterlife, sin is expelled. That's why we must be purged of our sinful nature before we can enter the Presence of the Throne of the Most High God.
The Pharisees complained that Jesus ate with sinners, yet we know he is Divine. If in fact God could not condone sin, humanity would have ceased to exist the moment of the first sin! It is only because God loves us in spite of our sin that we are even permitted to exist!
And yet Jesus told us to be hot or cold, not lukewarm. Mortal sin condemns one to hell; perfection allows admission into heaven. "Lukewarm" (venial) sin does neither, but it is still distasteful to God (metaphorically speaking) and so it must be purged from us before we can be perfectly worthy to enter the Perfect, the Divine Presence of the Most High God. Jesus is already there, perfected in his humanity by his Divinity; Mary is already there, perfected in her humanity by the singular grace of the Divinity of the fruit of her womb. And someday, God willing, we will be there, perfected "as gold tested in fire" by God's "burning love".
If, as scripture declares, only perfection can enter God's presence; and if, as St. Paul tells us, all have sinned; and if, as Protestants declare, there is no purgation (Purgatory) after death, then we are all condemned to hell. If the choices are heaven and hell, and only the perfect can enter heaven, it must be a mighty lonely place! And to make matters worse, on this Good Friday of the Lord's Passion and Death, Jesus died for nothing!
Matthew 25:31-46 tells us that many will be condemned to hell and many will be rewarded in heaven. Through Jesus our sins are forgiven and our guilt removed, but it's not automatic. Revelation tells us that perfection is required; not that our imperfections will be "covered" but that God who knows what is in our hearts will see perfection there. And that cannot happen during this imperfect life. Thank God there is a Purgatory, for otherwise we would have no hope.
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Juan
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 03:56 pm |
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I meant that evangelicals might agree to purgatory not by name but by the fact that somehow we will be changed and the imperfect will pass away.
There is much more to purgatory than the purging of sin.
Although the saints in purgatory no longer merit, they can't pray for themselves, but they still pray for us, we pray for them.
How can one do this in an instantaneous change? Purgatory is in eternity. Eternity is not affected by time. It is not "forever" as some people seem to think. Eternity is the ever present now. Some say it is the "absence of time", but I think it is "not affected by time".
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm
I have yet to meet an evangelical who believes any of that.
My only question I suppose is, how God can unite himself to us in our hearts or through the Eucharist if we are still guilty of any sin?
Acts Of Apostles 17
28 For in him we live, and move, and are; as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring.
God is always with us. God sustains all existence. Even sinners are temples of the Holy Spirit. That includes Evangelicals.
As an evangelical we sort of believed that God can not be united to sin.
You need to rid yourself of false evangelical theology. God loves all His children.
That he can only accept perfect people.
Do you mean "accept in heaven"? That is the entire purpose of purgatory.
But if you mean on earth. Remember that He called Abram and Abram promptly lied and gave his wife to Pharoah. Yet God was with him.
So where do they get the idea that God only accepts perfect people? A brief survey of the Apostles will show that Jesus selected 12 very un-perfect men.
That is probably why we believed in eternal security and a sort of permanent state of perfection,
Perhaps, but it is wrong headed thinking and you should discard it. If there is a Catholic doctrine you don't understand, believe it and accept it and God will reward your faith:
Concerning the Trinity, Augustine said:
First believe, then understand. Now to whom God gives that when he has believed he soon understands; that is God's gift, not human frailness. Still, if you do not yet understand, believe:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1307.htm
and when we sin we blame it on the flesh and say that we are inwardly somehow still holy. We thought the sin does hinder us spiritually in some way, but does not change the "rightousness of God" we have been given through faith.
Well that sounds very much like the idea of "venial sin".
Anyway, like I said, the only thing I am strugling with now that I see things differently, is if it is a problem to have a completely Holy God united to people who are still tainted by sin even if only venial?
Apparently not, according to the evangelical idea you expressed above.
How can God associate His perfect self so closely with sin in us?
Again, the analogy of marriage is very apt. Very soon after we marry we discover we haven't married perfect people. Yet if we love them, we remain united to them.
God loves us.
Sincerely,
Juan
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