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sewnsew
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 04:42 pm |
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| Is there a patron saint for converts? I have decided I will try patience and example ( a radicle departure for me!) and pray that my family will join me in the Catholic church. To that end I am supporting them by going to Mass by myself, and then attending (my old) their Anglican church with them. I am no longer saying what I don;t like about that church ( unless asked)... would it be appropriate to say a rosary for this everyday?
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 07:25 pm |
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I picked St. Paul for my saint. He was headed down the wrong road, as I was, and he turned around and started the other direction, as I did. I don't think he is known as the patron saint for converts but since he was a convert, I thought he would understand me and my situation. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 07:29 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: Is there a patron saint for converts?
Actually, there are 23 of them. You can find the list here
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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sewnsew
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Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 08:53 pm |
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| thank you
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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 01:47 am |
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| Maybe she is not noted for this officially but I find St. Elizabeth Seton to have been someone who has crossed my path at significant times and seems to be someone who would understand the difficulites of conversion based on my reading of her life story. I trust in her intercession for people I know are struggling with the idea of conversion.
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AD
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| First Name: | AL | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptist Pentacostal Non Denominational |
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 10:49 pm |
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I'm on a learning journey here so here is my question
I have read the Bible many times, Born Again, August,1979 and I have
never read the part about praying to dead saints. I know Jesus said
What ever you ask in accordance with His will, He hears us and several
places in scripture about prayer and asking in His name but I have never
read anywhere in the Bible about praying to dead people. I am not trying
to be offensive with this. I an trying to learn why catholic people believe
some of the things they practice. Im thinking it might be because I only use
the bible as my source of instruction and you folks are taking the word of
Tradition that has been passed down, but if that is the case then why didn't
they pass it along at the council when they declared what books would be
included as the preserved word of GOD. I might also be a bit suspect of
what men say it should be verses what GOD'S word says, Thanks
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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 11:07 pm |
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Al,
Welcome to the forums. I am sure others will post but in the meantime, you might wish to do a search of old posts on any topics of interest. There is also good basic information on many topics at Catholic Answers. Here is a link to their page on asking saints to pray for us.
http://www.catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
Please take a look and follow up with any additional questions. There are many here who will be willing to help.
Kate
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 11:30 pm |
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AD wrote: I have never read anywhere in the Bible about praying to dead people.
Catholics don't pray to dead people, Al. Jesus came to bring eternal life. We pray with live people both on heaven and on earth, and we see no difference between your asking me to pray for you and your asking the saints in heaven to pray for you. The only real difference is that since we know they are in heaven, we know they are righteous. What does scripture say about the prayers of a righteous man? And who does scripture say are righteous?
You also asked about traditions. Didn't St. John say that not everything was written down? Didn't St. Paul say to follow his teachings that he passed on both orally and in writing? The record of the oral teachings is in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, which is the source of our Tradition, and in the documents of the councils, which is the Magisterium. These are not inspired writings of the apostles so they're not part of Scripture, but they're still valuable guides to show us the beliefs of those taught by the apostles themselves.
If you would like a more complete discussion of the topic of Tradition, we'd be happy to accomodate you, but you asked what appeared to be several different questions. Could you rephrase it in a new topic, perhaps in the Tradition forum, so we can address your questions more directly?
By the way, it's not necessary to hit the Enter key at the end of each line. The editor will wrap automatically, and that way your message won't be double-spaced. Just press the Enter key at the end of each paragraph.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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DrDave
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| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 11:30 pm |
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Al, if you have ever been part of a church that recited accepted either the Apostles creed or the Nicene creed? You might have noticed a line "I believe in the communion of saints." have you ever enquired what the early christian authors of these documents meant by that line.
When one becomes a christian (we believe through baptism) the Bible clearly teaches that they become members of the body of Christ - The Church.
Death does not separate us from Christ does it? Doesn't God claim to be a God of the living? So asking saints to pray for us is the same thing as asking any other living christian to pray for us isn't it?
And doesn't the Bible also teach something about "the prayers of a righteous man"? I ask you is there anyone on earth at the moment more righteous than those in heaven?
Just some questions for you to ponder
Regards Dave
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BodRod
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 11:50 pm |
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AD wrote: I an trying to learn why catholic people believe some of the things they practice.
Two books which have helped me a lot are:
"Why Do Catholics Do That?" by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D.
and
"Any Friend of God's Is a Friend of Mine" by Patrick Madrid
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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AD
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 12:17 am |
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| Thanks for the replies. This will be food for thought. I do a church ministry at a nursing home and so I encounter people of all faiths and I need back ground info so I will not be totally in the dark, (lol) I have a very good friend in Ohio in the nursing home who is of catholic faith and we are the best of friends. He tell me that every man has the right to be wrong and the right to change his mind. We agree to disagree on different things but we worship the same LORD
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setapart
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 13th, 2007 |
| Location: | Austin, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Non-Denominational Charismatic, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 12:33 am |
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Hello AD,
Welcome to this forum. I appreciate your love for the Bible, so I will present a number of scripture passages to validate the honoring and in our prayers asking saints to pray for us: (I will use the NIV)
31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Matt 22:31-32 (NIV)
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Matt 17:1-3 (NIV)
28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Matt 12:28 (NIV)
17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
Acts 2:17-21 (NIV)
So far I have quoted Scripture that demonstrates that saints are not "dead". I also quoted some verses from the Gospel of Matthew - that the Kingdom of God has come upon the people with whom Jesus was speaking and demonstrating its power.The book of Acts that quote Joel 2:28-32 which foretells the Day of the Lord. and Peter is quoting this passage to show the crowd that is Day of the Lord - coming of His power - His Kingdom has been fulfilled before their eyes and demonstrated with power by their being cut to the heart and obeying the Gospel command to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.
The very essence of the belief in the Communion of Saints is the fact that the Kingdom of God is right now.
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
23 to the church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Heb 12:22-24 (NIV)
These verses demonstrate that are in communion with those in the heavenly Jerusalem.
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,
21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Eph 3:14-21 (NIV)
Have you noticed that we are part of a family both in heaven and on earth?
25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever
1 Cor 9:25 (NIV)
8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
2 Tim 4:8 (NIV)
Here are some references to crowns that Paul teaches that he and those who long for His appearance will inherit. A crown denotes rulership.
Below are listed a series of quotes from Revelation which Jesus promises to those from all seven churches who overcome:
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Rev 2:7 (NIV)
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Rev 2:11 (NIV)
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
Rev 2:17 (NIV)
26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations--
27 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father.
28 I will also give him the morning star.
Rev 2:26-28 (NIV)
5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Rev 3:5 (NIV)
12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Rev 3:12 (NIV)
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:21 (NIV)
The above verses indicate a ruling and reigning with Christ.
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
Rev 7:9-15 (NIV)
More verses showing "alive saints" in heaven.
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:7 (NIV)
Antoher one which shows that they care about what happens here on earth.
I hope that this helps you see how we as Catholics can read from the Bible the things that help support what we believe in.
God Bless,
Bill
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 01:45 pm |
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AD wrote: I do a church ministry at a nursing home and so I encounter people of all faiths and I need back ground info
I was wondering what the nature of your nursing home ministry is? Do you conduct Bible study, etc. or just visit with the people there? When I used to visit my Grandma in the nursing home it seemed like there were very few visitors to anyone there. The residents would often just be sitting in the dayroom watching TV all day. I guess it does depend on their health and abilities as to what they can do. When I would leave I gave her extra extra long hugs because I don't think she had any human contact, physical I mean, from anyone.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 02:12 pm |
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AD wrote: I do a church ministry at a nursing home and so I encounter people of all faiths and I need back ground info so I will not be totally in the dark, (lol)
I'm interested in learning more about your ministry as well. I spent some time as a hospice chaplain counseling terminally ill patients and their families and survivors, often in nursing homes, so this ministry of yours fascinates me.
Perhaps you could do a more formal "Introduction" in Fellowship Hall and tell us about your ministry.....
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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AD
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 08:41 pm |
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| Thanks again Rick. Will consider your invite as time allows. I also did some hospice visiting but only for a short while, however I have known several people who lived at the nursing home under hospice care. I learned about them the hard way. My Mother used their services the last 2 months of her time here on earth but she is now in heaven waiting for the rest of us so even though I miss her, I am not saddened
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AD
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 08:02 pm |
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Thank you Bill for taking time to share all that scripture with me and I can assure you I also believe we serve a God of the living and I believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I just don't find any where in those scriptures that give direction to pray to the saints for intersession for anything. I also realize the phrase pray to could mean talk to and could understand how missing someone you loved could lead to a desire to talk with them but I stay with my understanding that with the Spirit of the living God in me, bidding me to come to the Throne room of God boldly and bring my pet ions directly to the Father thru the name of Jesus, why would I want to go thru Mary or another saint who have crossed over. When Jesus was talking with his disciples in the book of John and he was telling them he was going to go away, this is a example of the point im trying to make. He said in John 16:23,24 When that day comes, you wont ask anything of me! Yes, indeed! I tell you that whatever you ask from the Father, he will give you in my name. The book of 1 John chpt.5 v 14,15 says it this way. and this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he hearth us--and if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him
If Jesus has all ready taught us we can pray to the father ourselves and he has given us the right to use his name then why would i want to pray to mary and ask her to intercede or another saint? I love the mother of our Lord and I love all the saints who have done the works of God and I know their reward will be great for the Faithfulness they had to God. I in no way take the position that we would not honor them as great Men and Women of God. I take the position against praying thru them when I have direct access to God myself thru the Holy Spirit of God they lives in me and he helps me to pray so im assured that God does not miss a thing im sometimes stumbling around to say. Peace my brother
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sewnsew
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 08:19 pm |
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| No one is forced to ask for the intersession of Saints- I actually look at it the same way as asking family, friends and casual aquaintences that I know are Christian to pray for someone. Try to think of it like a prayer chain- in protestant churchs I have often been asked to pray for someone else- and if they are the relative or freind of the chruch member I may only have had the person's name and an idea of what kind or prayers to make.- I am on some special needs list for my son and some quilting lists- we will often ask or offer prayer for someone that we may have an email relationship with but not a physical one...
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AD
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 09:17 pm |
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Thanks Marsha and Rick for your interest. I have been doing this off and on for about 15 years. It started off with a simple invitation from the nursing home to do visitation. I had a desire to do more for the Lord then give money and show up at church so I knew at the least it was a good thing to do and had no idea It was a set up by the Lord, lol
The types of things I do have changed from time to time but will share what I do now. I believe that there are many believers in the nursing home's who want to have a fellowship of believers they can meet with on a regular basis and where ever I am visiting is where I go to church. I stay at the same one so I am there every Sunday. I pass out song sheets with large print and we sing songs and as I gather up the sheets after each song I talk about whatever the Lord is showing me at the moment. I also encourage them to share and get them involved as much as possible. There is so many people stuck in these places that im sure every believer who does not have a ministry of serving could adopt a brother or sister in the Lord in these places and just share a few hours a week with them and it would change their life forever. There are a lot of people that do volunteer work at the nursing homes but there is never enough. All ways some need to be met and they always for the most part encourage people to come in and get involved. There is not at the present time a good bible study at the home im at and im in a kind of transition period myself but the Lord will work out the details for me if it falls in my direction. Thanks again for asking
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2007 08:44 pm |
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| Bless you for what you're doing brightening the lives of these people who society forgets about. They are so grateful whenever someone takes the time to visit. I just read Rick's story in the "conversion stories" forum about the cancer patient who died after converting to catholicism. It is a tear jerker but in a good, consoling way. Our population is aging they say, so we will have many opportunities in the future to serve this way.
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