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princessleah
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 27th, 2007 |
| Location: | Adelaide, Australia |
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| First Name: | Leah | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Adelaide to Rome, I'd say I'm at about Naples!! |
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 05:18 am |
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The concept of embracing Mary as our mother is probably the doctrine I am having the hardest time coming to terms with on my journey.
Perhaps it is a result of a poor relationship with my own mother, who I dont feel close to, nor a desire to become close to, I dont know, but the whole concept almost weirds me out. I guess to me I dont get how to embrace someone that lived 2000 years ago, and is now up in heaven, as a 'mother'. I find the thought strange, and I find that statues and pictures of Mary almost freak me out!
Has anyone else ever felt this way? And did you overcome it?!
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 08:05 am |
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God's peace. In my case, the problem was reversed, and more serious: suffering from an alcoholic, abusive father as a child, I had great difficulty understanding the good of having a "heavenly Father!" But if you pull back a bit from your own experience and see that God can indeed make all things new, what we are promised in both our heavenly Father and our mother in Mary is an opportunity to be adopted into a perfect family!
Let me recommend two books to you, both short: Carlo Carretto's "Blessed Are You Who Believed" and Scott Hahn's "Hail, Holy Queen." These books helped me enormously on my road to the fulness that is the Catholic Church. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
Last edited on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 08:12 am by Br_Carlo
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 01:50 am |
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I get more used to my Marian devotion every day. But I still have memories and doubts occasionally bother me. So I can totally relate to how you feel. I can only say that now, this part of Catholicicsm makes so much sense to me and I love it quite a lot. The thing is that God knows what you need. He knows that it is probably not going to happen to go from being freeked out by this to just actively participating in it. Ask Him for help, and let Him know that you are unsure and could use guidance. I kept asking for God to help me get to know Mary if He wanted me to know her, and eventually I started to believe He did, and I started eventually asking her to help me get to know her, and more importantly for her to help me understand and love her son more, which is ultimately what Marian devotion is all about. I feard it because I worry God would be jealous or something or it is idolatrous. I can only say since praying to Mary my desire to adore Jesus and be with Him in the Eucharist and to pray and live my faith has only grown.
But go at your own pace, and trust God to make it make sense to you slowly. Ask Him to give you the feelings about Mary He would want you to have. I also hope that even though your own relatiionship with your earthly mother is rocky that you do not give up on the concept of the beauty of what God intended motherhood to be. Don't let a bad example ruin for you what is meant to be one of the most wonderful relationships we could have. In fact perhaps God will use Mary in your life to redeem your concept of a graceful motherhood and eventually enable you to be the type of mother you would long to be if and when you have kids.
Anyway there was a lot of scripture that helped me with this too. mostly prophetic referneces from the old testament that I think foreshadowed Mary as a queen and as the new Eve and a few in the gospels that I think are quite telling. I would share these more if you are interested. And reading about the woman clothed with the son in Revelation 12 is also very telling.
I know Mary lived 2,000 years ago, but in a sense Chrsit is our brother and shares His inheritance with us. Therfore we have His mother as our own as well. She herself said that all generations shall call her blessed. So even if the thought creeps you out at least start with appreciating who she is and what she did and think of her as blessed, take some time, don't force anything and in time things will fall into place. You do not have to practice any specific Marian devotion to be Catholic so don't let worrying about this keep you from the faith, but at the same time try not to completely close yourself off from a gift God may want to eventually give you. Remember, mothers (ideally) are comforting, kind, always want what is best for us, pray for us, listen to us, are affectionate, give good advice. This is our Mother Mary. Who would not want these qualities to help us strive to know and love our Lord better, and as an example for us to follow as well. Remember Mary's advice to the servants at Cana (a story which is also a picture of her intercession) "Do whatever He tells you." Ultimately we want her in our life because she is a perfect example of obedience to the Lord ("may it be done to me accoridng to your word") and her example and advice will encourage us to do the same.
She seeks not glory for herself, but rather delights in seeing her Son praised, but it pleases God for us to love her and cherish perhaps the most beautiful human creation that He made. It is His work we praise when loving her and we are more aware that we have such a wonderful family.
Hope some of that helped. I have been similar to where you are. It was fun seeing it all enfold. I pray the same happens for you.
Brian
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princessleah
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 27th, 2007 |
| Location: | Adelaide, Australia |
| Posts: | 19 |
| First Name: | Leah | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Adelaide to Rome, I'd say I'm at about Naples!! |
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 03:56 am |
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Hi Brain,
Thanks for your comments. I found them most helpful. It is comforting to know that I should allow God to work this through in my heart over time.
I would be very interested to see the Scriptures that were of help to you. Being raised as a "Bible Christian", I'm used to delving into Scripture a lot!
I really connected with our comments about the wedding at Cana. A few years ago I was in a musical at my Church about the Easter story. One of the minor chracters I played was the servant that Mary spoke to, and Jesus asked to fetch the water. I had a beautiful revelation of my relationship between Mary and Jesus, and how she helps us be more obedient to Christ!
*princessleah*
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wmschrader
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Fort Myers, Florida USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 01:01 pm |
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I highly recommend a book from Dr. Scott Hahn titled:
HAIL, HOLY QUEEN: MOTHER OF GOD IN THE WORD OF GOD
Dr. Scott Hahn offers a fresh perspective on Mary's central importance in the Christian Faith. Using the Bible and scholarly sources, Hahn asserts that Christ gave Mary to Christians as their mother - a mother who is worthy of great love and devotion. Hahn also discusses the Church's teaching on Mary's Immaculate Conception and Assumption into Heaven
____________________
Bill
Glory be to God for all things
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GordonH
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| First Name: | Gordon | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Born Presbyterian, later Baptist with charismatic leanings. |
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 04:59 pm |
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I am not a roman catholic but am very conscious of Jesus words in John 19 "behold your mother". This needs to be dealt with some way it can't just be ignored.
The whole Mary thing sorted itself out for me a few years ago when I realised that I believed the saints are alive in heaven. As they are alive I can ask them to pray for me at the same time as I could ask a friend to pray for me. Protestants try to counter this by using the story of the rich man and Lazarus, but of course the "great gulf fixed" is between heaven and hell, not heaven and believers, otherwise we couldn't communicate with God at all.
I do not know if this would be correct catholic doctrine but its how I look on the issue coming at it from a biblical and logical perspective. From a personal point of view have you ever tried phoning round to get people to pray for you? Its amazing how many answering machines there are or people who are just too busy. Mary on the other hand is always available when our burden is too great.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 05:16 pm |
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GordonH wrote: I do not know if this would be correct catholic doctrine but its how I look on the issue coming at it from a biblical and logical perspective. From a personal point of view have you ever tried phoning round to get people to pray for you? Its amazing how many answering machines there are or people who are just too busy. Mary on the other hand is always available when our burden is too great.
It actually squares quite well with Catholic teaching, Gordon. And that's really not surprising, since the Church approaches things from a biblical and logical perspective as well.
When all of scripture and the teachings of the apostles, fathers, and doctors of the Church, along with doctrines declared by popes and councils, are considered together, what you get is a consistent, logical progression of teaching based on scripture. You can certainly reach the same conclusions on your own. But it's easier to accept the authority of the Magisterium and accept all the hard work they've already done.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2007 06:35 pm |
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princessleah wrote:
I would be very interested to see the Scriptures that were of help to you. Being raised as a "Bible Christian", I'm used to delving into Scripture a lot!
It makes me very happy to have been of some use. Let's see what I can try to show you that I found to be enlightening on my path.
John 19 25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
I found that the church early on inpterpreted this as a sign of Jesus giving Mary to all of us to be our mother. We are all in a sense the beloved disciple (though John was specifically) I took the confirmation name John largely because of this covenant.
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revelation 12 speaking of Mary?
A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads...The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. ....13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.... 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring, those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
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This is a favorite of mine. Try to understand Mary as the new testament's Ark of the Covenant. We honor Mary because she was filled with the Lord in a very special way just as the ark was.
As the ark of the Covenant bore the Presence of God in the time of ancient Israel, so Mary bears God's presence. She is thus the Living Ark of the New Covenant.St. Luke also draws a parallel between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant in the account of the Visitation (Luke 1:39-52). Compare it to 2 Samuel 6:4-16, where David tries to bring the original Ark into Jerusalem. Both the ark and Mary are on a journey. David dances before the ark; John leaps in his mother's womb. David says "How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sa 6:9); Elizabeth says "Who am I, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Lk 1:43). The ark stayed in the house of Obededom for three months (2 Sa 6:11); Mary stayed in Elizabeth's house for three months (Lk 1:56)
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Also, is Jesus a king? Who is queen of a Jewish kingdom? The kings mother. I kings 2:
"Very well," replied Bathsheba, "I will speak to the king for you." Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right. "There is one small favor I would ask of you," she said. "Do not refuse me." "Ask it, my mother," the king said to her, "for I will not refuse you."
Note the concept of the value of the Queens intercession.
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And another big one is seeing Mary as the new Eve. It was Eve's (and Adam's) disobedience that brought death. Mary in the New Testament is the woman who reverses this. We know Christ is referred to in the New Testament as the new adam. But Mary is the new Eve. Her 'yes' reverses (or begins to reverse) the first Eve's disobedience. In fact, in the passion we have a garden, a tree (the cross) the new Eve who obeyed God, and the New Adam, and we eat of the fruit of the tree to bring us life (blessed is the fruit of your womb) We eat the fruit in the Eucharist.
So both the story of our fall and redemption involve first in a negative way and then a redeeming way, a man and woman, a call to obedience, a tree whos fruit affects our life.
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In John we hear Jesus call Mary 'woman' which was not a negative term but one of affection and honor and also sort of makes a comparison to Eve who was called 'woman.'
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Anyway, I hope that some of these can help you gain confidence that honoring Mary as our mother is only going to make God happy and bring us more into the family of God. Afterall, to those protestants who argue that honoring Mary takes away from loving God. Who among us would want our husband or wife to have no love or interest in our family or to completely ignore them? Would you tell your husband I love you so much that I never want to talk to your mother or other family members because you would be worried he would be jealous. No, because you love him, you would love those he loved.
Lastly, I know an older man who's wife died. He is not catholic. But everyday he visits her grave and speaks with her. This seems so natural to a lot of people. If God is able to make that a theraputic experience at least, and at best she can still care for and pray for him in heaven, then it is equally possible that Mary can pray for us if it pleased God for her to do so. So I would suggest from the pictures in revelation 12, the cross, Cana, and the intercession of the Queen Mother that Mary was chosen for a great role of intercession.
Keep us updated on your struggles, and remember that there is no hurry. God is interested in challenging you to grow, but He would not ask you to rush into something you just can't become comfortable with overnight. Keep yourself open and hopefully (as it was in my case) things will develop naturally and God will make them fall into place in your heart. There will be some discomfort and questioning on occasion, but eventually you will gain confidence to move forward in small ways depsite fading anxiety that remains. And the rest of the anxiety progressively goes away as you start to realize what a joy and blessing it is to have such a wonderful Mother to aid us through her love, prayer, and example.
Brian
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Darlene
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| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 08:29 pm |
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Brian,
Thanks so much for your comments on Mary. Our Protestant brothers and sisters do not know what they are missing.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Byzantine_Catholic
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 10:29 pm |
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Being a Catholic doesn't mean you have to ask for the intercession of anyone. You are also not obligated to believe in any private revelations (i.e. Fatima, Lourdes, etc...).
The Church only ask that you accept that which is doctrine. Taking advantage of saintly intercession is souly a personal choice. However, it is a great resource to have in our daily struggles with life and one which should not be disregard lightly.
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brian
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 01:35 am |
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Darlene wrote: Brian,
Thanks so much for your comments on Mary. Our Protestant brothers and sisters do not know what they are missing.
Darlene
Thanks so much. I have been praying for your husband. You are exactly right by the way. Mary is such a comforting infuence. The fact is that it is God's love and comfort that she gives us, but God is pleased for us to receive some of this love through her. For instance, when I feel loved by a family member or friend ultimately that love comes from the inspiration of God who is the author of love, and it pleases Him that we love one another. Often when I think of those who love me, I see it as a gift from God. My point being that Mary is not one to compete with or distract us from God. God is not jealous we love her. In fact our love of her only magnifies the truth and beauty of God's love as we understand it from another unique angle ("my soul magnifies the Lord").
One reason some protestants may miss out is because they perhaps see how far devotion goes to Mary and they can't help but think these are expressions they would only give to God. This slowed me down as well, until I realized that I only had to go at my own pace. It also helped me to realize that certainly Mary deserves greater love and affectionate terms I would give to other earthly heroes/celebritites. Why be willing to praise the virtue of our favorite pastors and teachers with such zeal and then worry it is idolatry when applying the same level of affection to the Lord's Mother?
The thing my heart desires for protestants is to at least hear the idea of Marian prayer well explained and shown to be something we believe is meant to deepen our love of Christ, which is ultimately why I gave it a shot. I began to trust that Mary could not help but want her Son's love to be more understood in me. I wish that every time they saw a statue, rosary, or shrine, they were willing to see the steps it took for those things to exist and what they do and do not mean.
Thanks again,
Brian
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Angie_Rivas1
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 03:11 am |
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Brian,
The explanation you provided about our Mother was very beautiful and helpful! Even though, I've been a Catholic all my life, I struggled understanding this doctrine in the past. However little by little, I see myself getting closer to Her. Our Mother is truly a gift!
I am happy the Holy Spirit is working in your life. You've shown much growth and understanding 
Angie
____________________
"Be not afraid" JPII
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Ali
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 10:19 am |
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princessleah wrote: The concept of embracing Mary as our mother is probably the doctrine I am having the hardest time coming to terms with on my journey.
Perhaps it is a result of a poor relationship with my own mother, who I dont feel close to, nor a desire to become close to, I dont know, but the whole concept almost weirds me out. I guess to me I dont get how to embrace someone that lived 2000 years ago, and is now up in heaven, as a 'mother'. I find the thought strange, and I find that statues and pictures of Mary almost freak me out!
Has anyone else ever felt this way? And did you overcome it?!
Most all Catholic doctrines and teachings use to freak me out  How did I overcome them? By opening my heart in prayer to God. Seriously, it sounds to easy. But I had to dedicate myself to accepting the fact that what I knew previously just might be wrong. Which meant I was wrong. I have a hard time admitting that, just ask my dh 
But once I fully committed myself to be open and learning through prayer, stuff just started to fall into place. Instead of asking "Why?" all the time, I asked "Why not?"
After all, with God all things are possible, are they not?
I have come to view the Catholic church with all her vast and deep subjects like an ocean. At first I only waded in a little to get my feet wet. Now that I am more experienced, I can venture deeper and deeper.
The Mary doctrine you mentioned has gotten easier for me as I have more fully embraced my role as a mother and a family caretaker. I also do not see Mary as perfect. Yes, she may have been without sin, but I'm sure she still got irritated with Joseph, may have scolded Jesus for some very similar things I scold my kids for. She was a woman and a wife. She lived with two men, how easy is that? LOL She bled every month (right?), she washed dishes, cleaned bedrooms, gave Jesus a bath when he was little, told stories to him. She did everyday woman chores. We should be able to connect to her on that level alone.
I hope this becomes easier for you. If your own mother isn't a very good example to follow, perhaps you could draw closer to an older woman in your parrish? Our old folks have so much to offer. {{hugs}}
Ali
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