 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Prodigal Daughter
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 200 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 10:23 am |
|
In our efforts to explain the Catholic faith to non-Catholics, we are often confronted with questions about Marian devotion. The question usually comes from anti-Catholic Calvinists who come at it with the assumption that Catholics do worship Mary and it’s their job to “catch us in the act.” Sometimes however, there are sincere seekers who may accept a statement like “The Church teaches that God alone is to be worshiped but we honor Mary as Jesus’ mother and our mother. “ And if that is not enough, sincere seekers are usually satisfied with a quote from the CCC. The problem is that after being satisfied with our answer, these seekers will then run into an anti-Catholic Calvinist who will convince them otherwise by showing them a picture of someone bowing to a statue of Mary or pull out a quote like the following from Ubi Primum, Pope Pius IX, and say “See, no matter what they tell you, CATHOLICS DO WORSHIP MARY!” (Followed by hand rubbing and a sinister laugh).
“Great indeed is our trust in Mary. The resplendent glory of her merits, far exceeding all the choirs of angels, elevates her to the very steps of the throne of God. Her foot has crushed the head of Satan. Set up between Christ and His Church, Mary, ever lovable and full of grace, always has delivered the Christian people from their greatest calamities and from the snares and assaults of all their enemies, ever rescuing them from ruin.”
“And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God's anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as we lament from the bottom of our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform our sadness into joy. The foundation of all our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9ubipr2.htm
I read that quote from the vantage point of trust in the Church and thank God that he has given us so great a gift in our blessed Mother but at the same time, knowing how evangelicals think, find it difficult to explain the quote in their language.
So I guess my question is not so much how to answer the anti-Catholics but how to combat these misconceptions among sincere seekers who have been poisoned by them; seekers who may be afraid to look any further into Catholicism because of a fear that we actually do “worship” Mary. Is there a good website, a short pamphlet or book that can explain the role of Mary in the Church while at the same time gently combating the common anti-Catholic rhetoric which is so prevalent among angry Calvinists?
____________________
"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2069 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 08:59 pm |
|
Deb, a technique that I find works some of the time (there’s no cure-all, as I’m sure you are aware) is to point out that Mary’s prerogatives are nothing that is not available to all Christians.
For instance, the Immaculate Conception is merely a different timing of the redemption that her Son would later offer to all from the cross. If the person is willing to admit that Abraham, Moses and Elijah were saved (and this is biblical), it is the same logic for Mary.
Again, Mary’s Assumption into heaven follows precisely the same pattern that all the saved will experience. The only difference is the timing of the event. All the elect will receive back their bodies at the end of time and enter, body and soul, into everlasting glory. Mary is given no more that what all receive, but it comes before the dissolution of the universe, as befitting her unique role with regard to the redemption.
We talk about her great power as a heavenly intercessor. This prerogative is given to every soul entering into glory. You and I could be among them soon, doing exactly what Mary and the others do. Et cetera.
Basically, this type of argument does two things: First, it shows that, even from the Catholic point of view, Mary is really just “one of us.” Not a goddess, not a superhuman, but a real human being like you and me. Second, it reminds us that we ourselves will be given a glorious eternity far beyond our ability to comprehend. If these things are given to Mary, it is because they will be given to us as well, when we have finished our earthly sojourn.
I have never seen this line of argument presented anywhere else. It is something I worked out several years ago as a private presentation to a strongly anti-Catholic man with an Evangelical Calvinist background who was afraid that, given his eye-opening study of sola scriptura and sola fide (a friend of his had converted to Catholicism and he was determined to dissuade him), he would have to convert to a religion he hated and swallow a doctrine he deemed idolatrous. After my presentation, he admitted that he had no answer. We went on to discuss the rosary and a number of other topics, and he was amazed at how reasonable everything was once he got over that first hurdle. Today, he and his entire family are Catholic. In fact, his wife, equally skeptical at first, practically dragged him in the church door. It doesn’t always work out this well, of course. I just got lucky on that one. But it shows the possibilities.
If you would like to see exactly what I said to this man (and it was much more extensive than the few points I have offered here), I have preserved the exchange for my own reference and could pass it along to you privately.
David
|
|
|
Prodigal Daughter
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 200 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 11:08 pm |
|
David,
Wow, that is awesome! Russ has an ex-Catholic Calvinist friend who I am sure is hoping to convince him (albeit ever so subtly) to leave the Church as well. We would both benefit from reading your discourse with this gentleman who is now Catholic and would be truly blessed by your kindness in sending it to us.
It's true, I never heard the timing concept used as a way of presenting Marian doctrines although I did think of that on my own regarding the Immaculate Conception and that is what finally convinced me. I remember learning that Orthodox Christians believe that Mary became without sin when the Holy Spirit came upon her and she conceived Jesus in her womb. For some reason that was easier for me to accept and so I considered becoming Orthodox for a while. Then one day it dawned on me if God could make her without sin at that time, why couldn't He do it at her conception?
My concern however in discussing Marian devotion with people isn't so much the doctrines themselves as it is the pictures of people bowing to statues of Mary and quotes that say how much we should elevate her as Catholics. I would appreciate any other input in this regard.
____________________
"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2069 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 03:43 pm |
|
If you will PM me your e-mail address, Deborah, I will send you a PDF of the exchange.
You need to keep in mind that the man had just been set back on his ear twice in his search for ammunition to “kill” his friend’s Catholic conversion (sola scriptura and sola fide), so my reply wasn’t the sole contributor to his about face.
There is something that troubles me about your enthusiasm, and that is the idea of a sure-fire technique that will “blow away” your husband’s friend. Such a cure-all does not exist. Not everyone will open his heart to the truth. Jesus himself “could do no mighty work” (Mark 6:5–6) when he met with this kind of resistance. And when he pressed them, the non-believers in the crowd abandoned him in disgust (John 6:60–66).
It is much more productive to pray for those who resist the truth than to argue with them. If you must respond, this is what the techniques are for, as far as they go. Personally, I never write a post on the forum or write a private reply without praying over it. I think this does far more good than whatever I might write. I am constantly reminded by my guardian angel that, according to his own testimony, the Cure D’Ars would never have gained anything by his preaching and evangelizing of the lukewarm people in his assigned parish if he had not also fasted and prayed for them. While the necessity remains for us to preach the word, the grace to believe comes not from the preaching but from God.
It's true, I never heard the timing concept used as a way of presenting Marian doctrines although I did think of that on my own regarding the Immaculate Conception and that is what finally convinced me.
I have never put much stock in any “timing concept,” since in itself it is nothing. The point is to show, as I said, that Mary is a human being rather than a goddess and that whatever she attained — grace on earth and glory in heaven — is in fact given to all who believe in God and seek to live in accordance with his revealed truth. This gives our own destiny a tremendous boost while making Mary “reasonable.” It’s just a matter of putting things in perspective.
I remember learning that Orthodox Christians believe that Mary became without sin when the Holy Spirit came upon her and she conceived Jesus in her womb. For some reason that was easier for me to accept and so I considered becoming Orthodox for a while. Then one day it dawned on me if God could make her without sin at that time, why couldn't He do it at her conception?
The Orthodox have no dogma concerning Mary being “without sin” at any particular moment in her life, and the belief you relate is not universal. There have been other speculations, and each has its following. But what you say is true: God can do anything he wants, when and as he wants. So while the Orthodox uniformly reject the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception, they do so basically on the ground that the pope had no power to proclaim it, and not on the ground that it is untrue. More often than not, an Orthodox believer will simply regard the question as a mystery and not venture an opinion. This is really their preferred approach.
My concern however in discussing Marian devotion with people isn't so much the doctrines themselves as it is the pictures of people bowing to statues of Mary and quotes that say how much we should elevate her as Catholics.
Considering that our supernatural Christian life is all the result of divine grace, there is no reason to consider Mary anything but the work of God. There is no inherent worthiness in Mary; it is all grace. So we end by worshiping God through Mary and not Mary in her own right.
People can see me frequently bowing before statues of Mary and the saints. But first they have to enter the place of worship, which the unbeliever will not do precisely because he does not believe. So for him it is all hearsay. How, then, is he so certain of what he affirms? I am reminded of the serpent’s words in Genesis 3.
David
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 03:50 pm |
|
David,
Is there any way you can post your exchange with this Calvinist man on our forum somewhere? I have many close friends who are Calvinist and attended a Calvinist Church at one time. I would benefit greatly from reading such an exchange. It really seems as though Calvinists are the most difficult cookies to crack in all of Protestant land. They are so anti-Catholic!
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2069 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 04:19 pm |
|
It’s several pages long, Darlene, making it impractical to post here. Furthermore, it is private correspondence, and I am loath to present someone’s private words in public, even anonymously, where it can be hacked to pieces by insensitive people. However, I see no harm in sharing privately with a few selected people who could truly benefit from it. I invite you to PM me as well.
It really seems as though Calvinists are the most difficult cookies to crack in all of Protestant land. They are so anti-Catholic!
My personal experience is that ex-Catholics are the most difficult. Calvinists run a close second because they refer everything to their doctrine and pretend that religion is exclusively a matter of the mind. This rationalistic approach reduces religion — and God — to a product of logic rather than a mystery beyond our comprehension, resulting in a sort of Pelagian theology. If pushed to the ultimate, it ends in atheistic despair, because God is no longer God but a mere product of the mind.
David
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 804 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 12:50 am |
|
David W. Emery wrote:
So while the Orthodox uniformly reject the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception, they do so basically on the ground that the pope had no power to proclaim it, and not on the ground that it is untrue. More often than not, an Orthodox believer will simply regard the question as a mystery and not venture an opinion. This is really their preferred approach.
I would think that it is more involved than merely that they do not think the pope has the right to proclaim it. Though I would entertaint that being somewhat influential. I think that their rejection of it has a lot more to do with their dissatisfaction with our understanding of original sin and Augustine's theology. To them there is no reason to proclaim such a doctrine when they do not believe the stain of sin we inherit actually is a participation in any guilt; therfore if Mary never sinned there was no reaon for her to need this special treatment since she was born as immaculately as everyone else is. They also would prefer make Mary the great example for us to follow rather than an exception to the rule (though we would affirm that she is still example in her participation with the graces given). I am not orthodox so I am probably not representing them the best, but I would doubt if you talked to an Orthodox theologioan that he would concede to what you said, and I do myself think it may be an oversimplification while possibly somewhat true. The important thing is that we basically do believe the same things about the matter even though sometimes we split hairs on things, and moments when something happens, or how it happens. I have come to accept Catholic teaching, but I do respect their more mysterious approach. I like a lot though of what you said below here that makes me grow to favor the Catholic idea even more.
Considering that our supernatural Christian life is all the result of divine grace, there is no reason to consider Mary anything but the work of God. There is no inherent worthiness in Mary; it is all grace. So we end by worshiping God through Mary and not Mary in her own right.
Although I hope you are implying that by honoring Mary we are actually worshipping God and His grace in acknowledging her holiness, rather than implying that when we worship Mary the worship really goes to God. I persoanlly sometimes like asking her to offer my love and prayers to God because she can do so more perfectly and purely than I and give the love to God without some of the faults, vanities, and selfish ambition that may corrupt the love.
People can see me frequently bowing before statues of Mary and the saints. But first they have to enter the place of worship, which the unbeliever will not do precisely because he does not believe. So for him it is all hearsay. How, then, is he so certain of what he affirms? I am reminded of the serpent’s words in Genesis 3.
David
I was wondering about this. I have been kneeling in front of statues and whatnot, and I was wondering how this works or what makes it worship or not. Is it merely intent? As a protestant I could never see myself kneeling in front of a statue, and I still consider kneeling to be worshipful because John is told not to do it to the angel in Revelation. So when I kneel before Mary I like to assume it is God I am kneeling to in prayer in the presence of Mary, or that I am bowing in respect short of worship. Can you help me understand how this is or is not worship and what to consider?
Brian
Last edited on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 12:59 am by brian
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2069 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 01:25 am |
|
brian wrote:I think that there rejection of it has a lot more to do with their dissatisfaction with our understanding of original sin and Augustine's theology.
This is certainly a factor. Their theology is different on this point, although not irreconcilable. But their rejection of papal authority is still the primary reason, because Eastern Catholics accept the dogma without using Western theological underpinnings.
They also would prefer make Mary the great example for us to follow rather than an exception to the rule.
I think it is true of Western Catholic theology as well, despite the Protestant caricatures that tend to shape the popular mind. To consider Mary as exceptional is precisely what I have argued against in this thread.
I would doubt if you talked to an Orthodox theologian that he would concede to what you said, and I do myself think it may be an oversimplification while possibly somewhat true.
I would accept this, because from the beginning I have said that the concept I am presenting is not strictly theological but apologetic, and it is aimed at Calvinist Protestants rather than Orthodox.
Although I hope you are implying that by honoring Mary we are actually worshipping God and His grace in acknowledging her holiness, rather than implying that when we worship Mary the worship really goes to God. I mean, we do worship God through honoring Mary in various ways, but we do not worship Mary in order to worship God.
This was my intent.
I have been kneeling in front of statues and whatnot, and I was wondering how this works or what makes it worship or not. Is it merely intent? As a protestant I could never seeem yself kneeling in front of a statue, and I still consider kneeling to be worshipful because John is told not to do it to the angel in Revelation. So when I kneel before Mary I like to assume it is God I am kneeling to in prayer in the presence of Mary, or that I am bowing in respect short of worship. Can you help me understand how this is or is not worship and what to consider?
If I kneel or bow when praying to a saint, I do it out of respect, not as an act of adoration. But if someone insists that kneeling is always an act of adoration, we may understand it as honoring the presence of God in the holy person you are addressing, just as even Protestants speak of recognizing God in their neighbor.
David
|
|
|
japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 186 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 08:58 am |
|
I'm looking forward to the chat next Wednesday about presenting Mary to our Protestant brothers and sisters. I've recently come to a better understanding of Marian devotion and wrote a blog post presenting a handful of qualities or titles of Mary in the Catholic faith and describing how devotions to her lead to Jesus.
http://thecrossreference.blogspot.com/2007/04/scripture-devotion-to-mary-john-25.html
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 05:03 pm |
|
David W. Emery wrote: It’s several pages long, Darlene, making it impractical to post here. Furthermore, it is private correspondence, and I am loath to present someone’s private words in public, even anonymously, where it can be hacked to pieces by insensitive people. However, I see no harm in sharing privately with a few selected people who could truly benefit from it. I invite you to PM me as well.
It really seems as though Calvinists are the most difficult cookies to crack in all of Protestant land. They are so anti-Catholic!
My personal experience is that ex-Catholics are the most difficult. Calvinists run a close second because they refer everything to their doctrine and pretend that religion is exclusively a matter of the mind. This rationalistic approach reduces religion — and God — to a product of logic rather than a mystery beyond our comprehension, resulting in a sort of Pelagian theology. If pushed to the ultimate, it ends in atheistic despair, because God is no longer God but a mere product of the mind.
David
Yes David, I must concede to your opinion regarding Catholics being the most difficult. How could I forget them? Yes, Calvinists have no mysticism, no spirituality to their belief system. The gifts of the Spirit are not in operation. Never does one hear about meditative prayer, fasting, or offering up one's suffering to Jesus. Very, very rationalistic. Which makes me wonder how they can believe in such things as the Incarnation, the Resurrection, and prayer, which cannot be understood with the rational mind. I do believe that my son, who is very intellectual, was wrongly influenced by Calvinism, and thus eventually deconverted. He is now an atheist, so he says. But I pray for him daily that the Lord will be merciful and spare his soul. Calvinism took deep root in him. He was very close to our Reformed Calvinist pastor, was counseled by him before marrying and still visits with him now, on occasion. The doctrine of predestination, as the Calvinists believe, was difficult for him to receive. He was baptized in the Assemblies of God Church. Then when we started attending a Reformed Church, he had to switch gears, so to speak. He finally accepted the doctrines of Calvin, you know, the whole "tulip" theology. 
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
Current time is 07:43 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
