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Talithacumi
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 05:02 am |
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Here’s my dilemma concerning Mary. Truthfully, I find it hard to understand why anyone has a problem with her. To me it’s fairly simple. In the OT it was prophesied (in Genesis, in Isaiah, in Micah and several other places) that there would be a young woman who would give birth to a Messiah, a Christ, a Savior… Emmanuel.
In the NT, the Angel Gabriel approached Mary and greeted her as a “Highly favored Daughter” and told her she would bear the Son of God and that He would be called Emmanuel. She was a Jewess who had heard the prophecies, knew the expectations, believed, hoped in Him like any other good Jew. She could hardly comprehend that she, lowly person that she was, could be chosen to be Mother to the Son of God. Yet the Angel told her that she would be “overshadowed by the Holy Spirit” so it would not be a man who was responsible for impregnating her.
Despite what must have been a great sense of incomprehension and awe that such a thing would happen to her, she said yes! And unlike Moses and Jonah and other greats in the Bible, Mary didn't try to back out and make the excuse that she was nobody special; she simply said that she was the handmaid of the Lord and to let it be done unto her according to God's will. Complete surrender. No fuss. And all the more remarkable because, as a Jewess who’d spent nearly her entire life as a consecrated virgin in the Temple, she knew Jewish ways and Jewish laws. She was already betrothed to Joseph. She knew the Jewish law that any woman who was found to be with child by anyone other than her husband could be stoned to death. Saying yes to God was to pass a great test of faith. She surrendered her will to God completely, despite the very real possibility that her life could be snuffed out because of her “yes.” Yet she trusted in God, trusted Him with her very life. What faith she had in Him! And some people have the nerve to say she didn’t do anything special! That she was just a nobody, just someone God eeny-meeny-miney-moed His mighty finger at.
Mary gave Jesus His flesh, His humanity. Mary raised Him and taught Him the things all mothers teach their children. Mary nursed Him, fed him, cared for Him when He was ill. In short, she gave Him life. God! She gave God human life!
Mary is known as the Ark of the New Covenant, the New Eve. And it makes perfect sense to me. Jesus is the “Word of God” and the fulfillment of the OT… in the OT the “Word of God” was the Ten Commandments. Jesus is the living embodiment of those Ten Commandments. The Word made flesh! In the OT the “Word” was carried in a precious Ark, one that was made to God’s own specifications, one that was kept purified and allowed to be carried only by those consecrated by God. Can one imagine the Ark of the Covenant being allowed to contain anything that was not Holy? Anything that was not sacred or significant? Anything that was common or ordinary? With this understanding, am I expected to believe that Mary, as the Ark of the New Covenant, after carrying the most Precious and Holy Body of Jesus in her womb, should have carried in her womb other “common” and “ordinary” children? Somehow I find it hard to imagine.
Jesus, as the Word of God, must be true to Himself, to the Truth, to the Word that He is. Would He go against His own Commandment which He Himself embodies in His own person by being disrespectful to His mother or not honoring her? Of course not! No one loves His mother more than He does! No one ever could. Would He expect us to downplay the love He has for His mother? Would He want us to love her less out of fear that we might not give Him enough love? Would He not, instead, want us to love her every bit as much as He does? Is He so petty that He would think that by loving her this would somehow take away from our love for Him? How ridiculous! I love my parents. If I love my mother with all my heart, does that take away from the love I have for my father?? Love is limitless.
Maybe this is the problem. People don’t understand that we can love Mary with all our heart and that does not take away from our love for God. Just because we love and honor her does not mean we think she is a goddess. We do not put her on a par with God. But she did give Him birth. He Himself “favored” her. “Rejoice O Highly Favored Daughter,” the angel said to her. People seem to forget: She was chosen by God! We can argue til we’re blue in the face about how God didn’t "need" Mary. Well, duh! We know that! But He CHOSE her. How can we, obedient sons and daughters of God, give her any less importance than God Himself did!
If Jesus is King, wouldn’t that make Mary a Queen? And in more ways than one: She is the daughter of God the Father (and yes, all women can be this), but she is the only one – blessed among women – who can literally be called the Spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Mother of God the Son.
What if Jesus were here in the flesh today, Prince that He is, and He were to walk down a street in all His glory, people waving hands and cheering at Him, while His entourage (including His Queen Mother) were to follow Him in His wake? How would He feel if all of a sudden He turned to look behind Him to see all His subjects who had, moments before, been cheering and waving at Him, suddenly, at sight of His Mother, thumb their noses at her and turn their backs on her? Would He not be insulted? Would He not grieve for her? Would He not even perhaps feel anger at their snubbing attitude? Would He not berate the crowds for belittling her, the Queen Mother? How insultingly they treat her! How can people treat the Mother of God this way?
And as far as her being our spiritual mother, how can it be any other way? If, by virtue of our Baptism, we are the adopted children of God and brothers of Jesus Christ, well... then doesn't it just follow that Mary is our Mother?
I hope no one thinks I sound holier-than-thou or judgmental or something... I just honestly don't understand the anti-Mary attitude I come across sometimes. :? It baffles and amazes me at times. I guess maybe I just have to put it down to that "different religious culture" up-bringing, huh?
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 05:22 am |
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Talithacumi wrote: Here’s my dilemma concerning Mary. Truthfully, I find it hard to understand why anyone has a problem with her.
Cheri, I agree with you completely. I do understand that some people have a problem with our feelings toward Mary as Mother, but I've never understood why either.
You and I are both "cradle Catholic" and we've grown up assuming a "both/and" mentality. It's as hard for us to understand the "either/or" of Protestant thinking as it is for them to understand the "both/and" of our inclusive form of thought.
In the Protestant mindset, attention to Mary is "worship" and if we "worship" Mary, that must detract from our worship of Jesus. After all, we must worship either Jesus or Mary, but certainly not both.
In the Catholic mindset, we know quite well that honor to Mary is in no way "worship" because without her Son, Mary would not be remembered at all. We understand that attention to Mary is honor to Jesus. We honor her as our mother because Jesus is our brother. And we know that we can love both Jesus and Mary, because Mary's soul magnifies her Lord and Son.
And if we truly love Jesus, how can we not love his mother?
Last edited on Sun May 6th, 2007 05:26 am by
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Candlemass
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 08:55 am |
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| If you will notice in the other thread, it's not loving her I have issues with........I just may have other issues in my life, you never can tell about these things!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 12:09 pm |
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Candlemass wrote: If you will notice in the other thread, it's not loving her I have issues with........I just may have other issues in my life, you never can tell about these things!
I do understand that, but to us cradle Catholics, loving Mary can't be separated from these other issues. It's not "either/or," it's "both/and". Honoring and venerating Mary is loving Mary, and honoring, venerating and loving Mary is loving Jesus.
And I believe that's the point Cheri was trying to make.
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 12:44 am |
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Candlemass wrote: If you will notice in the other thread, it's not loving her I have issues with........I just may have other issues in my life, you never can tell about these things!
Mark,
I hope you didn't think I was picking on you... I was just expressing my frustration and confusion about the general attitude that so many Christians have towards Mary. (Btw, does anyone ever notice that it's mostly Christians - other than Catholic or Orthodox - who see Mary as a problem? I don't think other faiths - even Muslims! - have as much of a problem with her as many Christians do. How ironic, since she plays such an important role in the life of Christ...)
cajunrick wrote:
I do understand that, but to us cradle Catholics, loving Mary can't be separated from these other issues. It's not "either/or," it's "both/and". Honoring and venerating Mary is loving Mary, and honoring, venerating and loving Mary is loving Jesus.
And I believe that's the point Cheri was trying to make.
Rick,
Yeah, what you said...  I probably could have summed it up that way, eh? Well, maybe not... I like to write too much!  But, hey, maybe we make a good team: I expound and go off on tangents, you sum up and make sense out of it. Works for me.
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Candlemass
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 12:56 am |
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I would never think that of you, you have been a blessing to me!
To be honest with you, I want to embrace her, I have so longed for a mother in my life! The priest today was speaking about orphans, I remembered the movie "A Walk In The Clouds", the one line in there when the grandfather told the Keyana Reeves; "an orphan you are no more", man did that hit something deep in my heart!
Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2007 11:56 pm by Candlemass
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 04:14 am |
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Candlemass wrote: I would never think that of you, you have been a blessing to me!
To be honest with you, I want to embrace her, I have so longed for a mother in my life! The priest today was speaking about orphans, I remembered the movie "A Walk In The Clouds", the one line in there when the grandfather told the Keyana Reeves; "an orphan you are no more", man did that hit something deep in my heart!
Mark,
Thanks for the compliment  . It's nice to be called a "blessing," though if I am, you and I both know that it is God blessing you through me. I'm just an instrument. I guess I must have done something right if you think I've blessed you somehow! I can only hope so.
But yeah, that was a cool movie, btw. I do hope that you find yourself feeling that you're part of a family, Mark, and that you find the Love you seek. I seem to remember reading on another thread something about your parents and how they don't seem to be very positive towards you. I will pray for you and for them. I truly hope things work out well for you all and that there will be some healing in your family. Try not to let yourself get discouraged. And pray to Mary to help you. Don't expect her to make herself known to you in a loud way, though. She has ever been "hidden in Christ," and it is my personal belief that though she could have been fussed over as some glorious, blessed woman because of her "Queen Mother" status even during her time on earth, she chose to remain a humble handmaiden who quietly pointed to Jesus all of her life - and beyond. When she makes herself known to you, it will be in the quiet of your heart. She will encourage you and whisper lovingly to your heart: "Do what He tells you."
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 11:51 pm |
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I'm finding this a bit ironic, May is Mary's month, I'm working through my issues w/her, today is my birthday, and on Memorial Day, I will meet my birth mother for the first time!  Last edited on Tue May 8th, 2007 11:52 pm by Candlemass
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 12:20 am |
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Candlemass wrote: I'm finding this a bit ironic, May is Mary's month, I'm working through my issues w/her, today is my birthday, and on Memorial Day, I will meet my birth mother for the first time!
It doesn't seem ironic to me. It sounds more like you are being invited right into her loving arms.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 12:50 am |
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Do you have any idea what all this means to me? To be loved, forgiven and accepted by God and His Church, how many times in the past where it seemed as though I was being seduced by hope?! My heart is so broken, my spirit so crushed, I still cry everyday, the pain inside so accute it's as if I could touch it, it still seems too good to be true, that God is going to lift me out of this and establish me as His child!
What I'm saying here is the Catholic Church is my last hope, I've tried everything else under the sun, it has been a living hell for over 25 years, to constantly have hope elude you when you think your so close, I can no longer bare it, I am praying the Rosary evey night now, even though I'm not sure what it means!
Last edited on Wed May 9th, 2007 01:04 am by Candlemass
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 01:00 am |
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Candlemass wrote: Do you have any idea what all this means to me? To be loved, forgiven and accepted by God and His Church, how many times in the past where it seemed as though I was being seduced by hope?! My heart is so broken, my spirit so crushed, I still cry everyday, the pain inside so accute it's as if I could touch it, it still seems too good to be true, that God is going to lift me out of this and establish me as His child!
It sounds more to me like Mary is hoping to lift you out of it and bring you to her Son, so that they can love you together.
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 02:58 am |
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Candlemass wrote: Do you have any idea what all this means to me? To be loved, forgiven and accepted by God and His Church, how many times in the past where it seemed as though I was being seduced by hope?! My heart is so broken, my spirit so crushed, I still cry everyday, the pain inside so accute it's as if I could touch it, it still seems too good to be true, that God is going to lift me out of this and establish me as His child!
What I'm saying here is the Catholic Church is my last hope, I've tried everything else under the sun, it has been a living hell for over 25 years, to constantly have hope elude you when you think your so close, I can no longer bare it, I am praying the Rosary evey night now, even though I'm not sure what it means!
Mark,
While I have been fortunate enough to have lived within a loving close family and have escaped the drugs and booze scene, I have also found myself living in the Hell of Depression (I do believe that one can inherit this tendency from a family member, namely a parent. Some of my siblings and I would seem to bear witness to this. Though my family is close there is definitely some obvious dysfunction within my family; we have just been blessed enough to somehow be able to thus far get along virtually unscathed, at least on the surface). At any rate, I do know a little bit about what you're feeling in some ways, though obviously not on the same scale.
But I think I understand how you feel... just when you think you're getting close to obtaining some kind of peace, hope eludes you and you find yourself slipping back into Hell again. And it's as if you can't take it anymore, as if God - and everyone else - has abandoned you.
And then... I cry out, "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" But you know? Someone said those words in bitter anguish long before me... and His Mother wept for Him, held Him in her arms when they took Him down off the cross, and she cried in mourning.
And then I have to remember that He suffered so much more than I. And somehow knowing that, though it doesn't lessen the pain, it eases it somehow... And I can think of how He had given His mother to us from the Cross (some don't think so, but I do... I believe Jesus was speaking to all of His Beloved Disciples when He told John to take His mother into His home...). She is ours and we are hers. She weeps for us when we are in pain and anguish. She carries us to Her Son and asks for His mercy... not that He isn't merciful anyway, but... you know... she's His mother. It just has more of an impact, maybe...
But to continue with what you said about not being able to bear it anymore... I wanted to point out to you: you know what Hell is like and that, in a way, is a blessing. Because you know what it's like, you also know that you don't want to be there for an eternity.
You might not think you can bear your anguish anymore, but you can. I know when I think I can't bear it anymore, I bear it anyway. There's nothing else to do - unless you kill yourself, but if you do that, guess what? You're right back in Hell because that is the sin against the Holy Spirit: hardness of heart; giving up on God; losing Hope. But this Hell is an eternal one, and if it's worse than the temporary Hell that you've lived on earth, you know for damned sure (pardon the language - and the pun - but just pushing the point) that you DON'T want to go there. OK, maybe fear of Hell is not the purest reason to try to be holy. But it's a decent enough reason for an average human being as they strive to continue their growth in holiness.
I don't know if you ever played sports in school, but I'm sure you've heard of the coach who will push his team just a little harder... just beyond their comfort zone. They think they can't handle it. But then they do. And when they do, it's an accomplishment, because they've just become stronger. It's like Fr. John Corapi says: "No pain, no gain. No gall, no glory. No cross, no crown." Hey, you're one of the team. You'll be fine. You're on the right track.
The Rosary is a wonderful weapon, btw. There's plenty of info on the Rosary online. You can check EWTN or any number of Catholic websites that will give you info on the Rosary. Or, of course, if you have specific questions, post them on here. You know we'll do our best to help you out.
Btw, hope you had a nice birthday!  And I also hope that something in my ramblings made some kind of sense. Sometimes I tend to babble, I fear... I could try to edit, but there is something in there that I wanted to say, so I don't want to delete it, and sometimes it's just too much trouble after writing so much to try and change it all. Anyway, I hope you found something useful in there...
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 03:36 am |
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| I'm not giving up Cheri, I'm just exposing my heart to all of you, as best I can, things I've been hiding from everyone, including God.
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"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 03:51 am |
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Candlemass wrote: I'm not giving up Cheri, I'm just exposing my heart to all of you, as best I can, things I've been hiding from everyone, including God.
Mark,
Glad to hear it! (that you're not giving up, that is...) Honestly, I didn't really think you were... maybe I was just hoping to try to make sure you wouldn't. Just put it down to my strange little way of trying to offer some semblance of encouragement - or hopefully, at least a reasonable facsimile thereof :? .
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 09:19 am |
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I get these e-votionals sent to me, haven't paid them much mind lately, but thought this one was rather appropriate:
All of a Sudden
Today's Scripture
"Moved with compassion, Jesus touched their eyes; and immediately they regained their sight and followed Him." (Matthew 20:34)
Today's Word from Joel and Victoria
No matter how discouraged or down you are, God can change your heart, mind and body in a split second. In Matthew 20, Jesus healed two blind men right on the spot, and they walked away completely changed forever. In order to experience this amazing and life-changing turnaround, you may have to take a chance. Nothing is gained without risk or going out on a limb a little bit. You may look at the obstacles or the potholes, but God sees victory. In just a moment, you can see things the way God sees them, which means you'll see the path to victory, not defeat. God rewards you when you step out in faith, not when you stay where you are out of fear.
A Prayer for Today
God, thank You for seeing victory where I see defeat. Give me the eyes to see things the way You see them. In Jesus' Name. Amen.
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"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 11:46 am |
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cajunrick wrote: Candlemass wrote: I'm finding this a bit ironic, May is Mary's month, I'm working through my issues w/her, today is my birthday, and on Memorial Day, I will meet my birth mother for the first time!
It doesn't seem ironic to me. It sounds more like you are being invited right into her loving arms.
Just to add, the church I attended as a boy was St. Mary, perhaps God is trying to tell me something?!
____________________
"For I the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for me!"
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