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Candlemass
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 10:45 pm |
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| I just ordered Fr. Corapi's dvd series; "Behold Your Mother", in the description of the series he talks about a personal relationship w/Mary, what does that mean, does Mary "speak" to any of you?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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Mark, let me first ask you if you know what a personal relationship is and whether you have ever had a real personal relationship with anyone. (This is just something to ponder, not to answer.) To me, a “personal relationship” is something both intimate and charitable. Maybe even deeper than “best friend” status. This is certainly what Protestants mean when they speak of having a personal relationship with Jesus. But one can actually have such a relationship with anyone who is capable of true charity — that is, the more Godlike the person is, the easier it is to establish such a relationship. So why not Mary? What is so different, or so revolting, about her that you can’t enter into such a relationship with her?
David
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brian
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 11:26 pm |
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Well, I actually feel that over time I have gotten to know Mary better. I sometimes sit and ponder with her and ask her advice and help and prayer, and sometimes I really think I can tell that some solid advice or encouragment is coming from her. Perhaps, it is just me thinking to myself, but there is a unique grace that seems to come with it. Regardless of where it comes from it is helpful and seems inspired by Mary somehow. She is just someone that for whatever reason I feel like I need to spend some time with once in a while and just talk things over with. This is especially helpful when I want some good advice or comfort or someone to remind me of the beauty of human obedience and chastity.
I really can see that having her in my corner helps me to stay spiritually focused and gives me great confidence tht I have a wonderful partner in prayer to guide me and my petitions.
As far as getting to know her I would suggest letting it develop over time, asking God for the grace of helping you develop this relationship and how according to His desire for you to have it and your comfort level, and slowly asking her for guidance and prayer, and learning to pray the rosary. She is our mother so sometimes it is just good to talk to her about things you would want a certain motherly comfort in dealing with. Also spending some time just looking at a picture, icon, or statue of her is helpful. I also believe that building a relationship with Mary helps one to respect women and their dignity.
Brian
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Candlemass
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 11:41 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Mark, let me first ask you if you know what a personal relationship is and whether you have ever had a real personal relationship with anyone. (This is just something to ponder, not to answer.) To me, a “personal relationship” is something both intimate and charitable. Maybe even deeper than “best friend” status. This is certainly what Protestants mean when they speak of having a personal relationship with Jesus. But one can actually have such a relationship with anyone who is capable of true charity — that is, the more Godlike the person is, the easier it is to establish such a relationship. So why not Mary? What is so different, or so revolting, about her that you can’t enter into such a relationship with her?
David Thats odd, I don't recall inferring anything revolting about her?
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 12:08 am |
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| Ponder, what's to ponder? Did you read my first post here, why do you think I did all those drugs, all the sex, all the isolating, I don't know the first thing about intamacy! Revolting? Who do you think I've been looking for in all those women, why I looked for my birthmother, I would give anything to have a mother who I could have a personal relationship with! A Father who wouldn't be ashamed of me, one who didn't wish he could've had his own son, or one he could've been proud of, do you know my father never once said he was proud of anything about me, neither one of them ever said I forgive you, I live with both of them now, and I don't remember when either one of them said I love you! So no, there's not much to ponder here, I'm so filled with venemous rage at times I can't stand to be around myself!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 12:11 am |
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I don't recall inferring anything revolting about her.
My point exactly. There’s no problem, then, is there? You just need to get better acquainted. And I’m sure Fr. Corapi’s talks are a good introduction.
And yes, I am quite sure that Mary “speaks” to anyone willing to listen. That is something any good Christian can do, but a saint seems to do it in a far better way. Maybe that is why my own words often fall flat: I’m not that holy. All the more reason to recommend a good personal relationship with Mary.
David
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 12:23 am |
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Candlemass wrote:
Ponder, what's to ponder? Did you read my first post here, why do you think I did all those drugs, all the sex, all the isolating, I don't know the first thing about intimacy! Revolting? Who do you think I've been looking for in all those women, why I looked for my birthmother, I would give anything to have a mother who I could have a personal relationship with! A Father who wouldn't be ashamed of me, one who didn't wish he could've had his own son, or one he could've been proud of, do you know my father never once said he was proud of anything about me, neither one of them ever said I forgive you, I live with both of them now, and I don't remember when either one of them said I love you!
You see, you did understand after all. In your heart of hearts you do know that there’s been something missing. And I think that if you look very closely at Mary, you will see the image of all you longed for there. And that image, in its turn, will guide you to the Father, who said “I love you” by sacrificing what was dearest to his own heart: his Son. And you know what? Mary did exactly the same thing, because that same one was her dear Son, too.
So no, there's not much to ponder here, I'm so filled with venemous rage at times I can't stand to be around myself!
Love is what will heal you of the rage. Can you see now why I used the word “revolting”?
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 12:37 am |
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| I think so
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brian
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 02:07 am |
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One thing I heard a priest say today...is when in contact with Mary ask her to place you with Jesus, and with Jesus ask Him to take you to Abba, God the Father. I think it was from Ignatius of Loyola...but maybe I misunderstood.
In any case the good news is that it is not a matter of competition between persons but of being caught up in a strong flow of mutual love, self-giving, and unity of heart. It is getting so close to the flame of God's love directly and through the church and the saints that we too share in (and become) the heat and warm those around us.
Brian
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 10:36 pm |
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Watching more of Fr. Corapi's vid, he talked about the icons he had around him and how they made him feel a powerful intamacy w/Christ, he also said his most powerful prayer was; "Immaculate heart of Mary, I place all my trust in thee." He said our spiritual life is not based on feelings, but if your a basket case, it can help, I'm such a case! I have invloved myself in more darkness then I cared to share here, the feeling to return is still there, and all my protestant doctrine in my head wages war within me over Mary, who will deliver me from this insanity?
He said Mary will in turn take you to her Son, who will in turn take you to His Father and you'll be filled with the Spirit. God help me, I have tried every other approach to God and to deliverence, all have been temporary at best, and utter failure most of the time, please pray for me, I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place! 
I just kind of feel like I'm in limbo, I'm spinning my wheels and not really going anywhere, he talked about how Mary will take you where you want to go, and faster, have any of you found this to be true?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 11:40 pm |
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I just kind of feel like I'm in limbo, I'm spinning my wheels and not really going anywhere, he talked about how Mary will take you where you want to go, and faster, have any of you found this to be true?
Most spiritual people would recognize this as impatience. The usual remedy for it is a dose of reality.
That reality is a paradox: what we perceive as an impasse is often secretly a breakthrough. Divine grace is not about perceptions and feelings but finding strength and victory in failure. If you do not receive what you want, what you ask for in prayer, it is because God has something greater in mind for you. But you have to want it to receive it.
Mark, recently I’ve been dealing with several people who whose minds and bodies are malfunctioning. Most of them are at least partially successful in their search for happiness. How? They begin with acceptance and humility, allowing God to be God.
Look at Mary: where is her greatness, her success? By our standards she lived a miserable life of poverty and want. Yet scripture tells us that she is blessed above all others. What does she have that you do not? Something greater than what you ask, no doubt. Allow her to teach you, then, what it is that you most need and how to acquire it.
David
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 10:38 am |
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Candlemass wrote: what does that mean, does Mary "speak" to any of you?
Mary doesn't speak to me so much as I speak to her (wow would I love for her to speak to me!) But it is her presence that is so powerful. I often pray to her for help for my two children: a daughter (with 3 small children - a fulltime stressful job - a husband in the building trade which is in a slump) and my son who has made a pretty bad mess of his life so far. I pray for her to intercede on their behalf. I also pray for her to help me be a better mother to them, because she is my role-model. I very definitely feel she is working in my life. She drew me to the Catholic Church, where I learned it's not always about what I get from her (or her Son) but what I give to them, my prayers and devotion. You are looking for love in the right place! You might also read about some of the other saints who had similar struggles as yours. I pray to St. Monica everyday. She helps me persevere.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 01:54 am |
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| Just got back from "Riders on the Storm", Ray, Robbie from The Doors along w/the singer from Fuel, my license and plates are expired, figured I get it in the morning. Got pulled over on the way home, he took my license and told me to wait, I started to pray, then I decided to pray to Mary, I asked her to intercede for me, I knew as a mother she understood what it means to me to be able to leave for Michigan tomorrow. He let me go w/a regestration violation, that can be mailed in, he could have towed the car and took me to jail, thank you God, thank you Mary!
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 11:14 am |
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| You are so on the right road now. Mary does intercede for us and asks her Son to help us. But remember why Joseph and Mary were traveling to Bethlehem? To be counted in a census and pay taxes, and I guess even though she was very pregnant at the time, they knew they had to pay the tax in a timely manner. They are truly role models for all generations. I have been praying rosaries for a friend of my son's who made a mistake a work that nearly got him fired. So far, he's still working! Last edited on Fri May 25th, 2007 11:22 am by Credo Catholic
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AD
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 10:15 pm |
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The first thing that comes to mind david is because she is not alive
on the earth anymore so a intimate relationship would be as you say
Imposible
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 10:21 pm |
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AD wrote: The first thing that comes to mind david is because she is not alive
on the earth anymore so a intimate relationship would be as you say
Imposible
Really, so an intamate relationship w/God/Christ is impossible as well?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 11:16 pm |
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AD wrote: The first thing that comes to mind david is because she is not alive on the earth anymore so a intimate relationship would be as you say Imposible
Al, David didn't say that. Through the Communion of Saints, we have an intimate relationship with all those who followed Christ and did God's will. Since Mary did God's will more perfectly than any other human except her Son, our relationship with her is more intimate than any of the other saints. We are closer only to God in three Persons.
So yes, it is quite possible to have an intimate relationship with our Blessed Mother, and with all those who are eternally alive in Christ.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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setapart
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 12:59 am |
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Mark,
I am placing a link to a great website by David McDavis who is a Catholic musician who plays with other Chrisitan musicians. he has dedicated his website as a bridge between evangelicals and Catholics.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary.htm
This link points to David's own testimony concerning Mary.
I hope that this helps.
Bill
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But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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AD
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 01:47 am |
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I can understand how I could be misunderstood with my remark because I did not realize that catholics believed Mary lived a sinless life here on earth and was elevated to the position where you (catholics) pray to and thru her.I believe the scripture states that our spirit returns to GOD and Paul says To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD so I dont question the fact of their presence in Heaven, just the active part of having intimate relations with people on the earth waiting their turn to go home.
I recall a story in the old testament where one of the prophet's prayed to GOD for a answer and when the messenger came he said He left as soon as the prayer went up but had to call for help but again, The prophet prayed to GOD, not a angel. I can honestly say that I do not ever recall one time in the old or new testament, (the scriptures being worthy of correction and instruction) where anyone ever prayed to a saint in heaven. Im here at this site to learn how different catholic's believe to help me in my helping people who find themselves stuck in the nursing home and i run into catholics as well as other believers. thanks again for the responses
p.s. Of course I understand how we can be intimate with GOD John:14;17 says Even the Spirit of truth;whom the world cannot receive,because it seeth him not,neither knoweth him but you know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you
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hpj0828
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 11:15 am |
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David,
Given the following Scripture passages:
9 “When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no-one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.” Deut. 18:9-15. NIV
This passage seems to say that we are not supposed to consult the souls of those who have died before us, with the exception of the "prophet like me [Moses]" who is Jesus.
I Samuel 28 contains the story of Saul consulting the medium of Endor:
5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart.
6 He enquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets.
7 ¶ Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so that I may go and enquire of her." "There is one in Endor," they said.
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."
9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"
10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."
11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" "Bring up Samuel," he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don’t be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit {Or see spirits; or see gods} coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?
17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbours—to David.
18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today.
19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
NIV
The prophet Samuel was certainly a holy man. It would seem that such a man would attain a state of sinless perfection through the forgiveness of Messiah's blood. There is nothing in the I Sam account that suggests the ghost of Samuel was a demonic spirit impersonating Samuel.
These passages of Scripture seem to indicate that a personal relationship with saints is possible, but forbidden.
How do you reconcile this with a personal relationship with Mary or one of the saints?
Henry
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 03:33 pm |
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Henry, the passages you cite are among the most common mentioned by Evangelicals against praying to the saints. In your opinion, is asking someone to pray for you identical to divination or necromancy?
If I ask you to pray for me, is that prohibited? Then if I ask someone else, who lives on the other side of the earth, to pray for me, is that prohibited? And finally, if I ask someone who resides in heaven to pray for me, how is this suddenly different? Is a change of residence such a big deal?
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 04:14 pm |
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| Plus, I don't think any catholic is going to a witch to communicate w/Mary!
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 04:51 pm |
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Dear Henry and Ad,
Believe me when I say I truly understand what you are struggling with here. The Communion of Saints was a teaching that I had to come to terms with.
What is interesting about the passage that you gave, Henry, is that Samuel declares that Saul will be in the same place as him by the next day. Yet Samuel was a godly man and Saul was not. But Jews all went to the same resting place, that is, Sheol. They did not understand Heaven in the same way that we do. Yes, Job and David were given revelations about heaven, but overall, the Jews as a nation of Israel, did not look at Heaven in the same way as Christians do. When Christ descended into the depths of the earth, he preached to those souls in prison. But now, as Paul the Apostle says, to be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord. We no longer look at our departure from this earth as a destination to a resting place such as Sheol.
One day, while I was praying and having difficulty with this very subject, I began meditating on the Transfiguration. Just like a lightbulb, the Holy Spirit showed me that this was an example of the Communion of Saints. Moses and Elijah were dead, right? No, they were even more alive than you or I and were speaking to Christ our Lord. And Jesus charged them to tell no one of this incident "until the Son of man should have risen from the dead." Verse 10 in Mark ch. 9 says,"So they kept the matter to themselves questioning what the rising from the dead meant." Even the disciples at this juncture were ignorant of the resurrection of the dead. They thought that somehow Moses and Elijah were sleeping but could not imagine just how alive they really were. If we think about this even further, we can understand that the Lord revealed the actual identity of these two saints to Peter, John and James. How incredible is that? And not only that, Jesus revealed this very personal matter not to all His disciples, but only to Peter, John and James. It makes sense that only after the resurrection of our Lord, could the Transfiguration be understood.
So you see from this example, our Lord Jesus Himself was in "communion" with two men who had physically left this earth but were alive with God in Heaven. Is not Jesus our example? This is something for you to ponder.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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hpj0828
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Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007 11:26 am |
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Thank you all for your responses. I have thought of the Transfiguration already in this context, Darlene. Also of Jesus' midrashic defense of the resurrection of the Dead in Mt 22:
23 ¶ On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Him and questioned Him,
24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, ‘IF A MAN DIES, HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP AN OFFSPRING TO HIS BROTHER.’
25 "Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother;
26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
27 "And last of all, the woman died.
28 "In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her."
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.
30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
31 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 ¶ But when the Pharisees heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they gathered themselves together.
However, here, Jesus is speaking of what happens when the resurrection of the dead is already effected.
Being Jewish, the concept of Sheol as a holding place for the dead prior to their resurrection, is still very appealing to me. I have not given up on this idea--indeed it seems similar to "Purgatory".
I am not sure what time means to the dead. Does time still flow in Sheol? In Purgatory, in hell or heaven? Or are those who dwell there outside of time as we know it? If so, do (or did) those in Sheol "wait" for their resurrection in any meaningful way?
With regard to the Dt 18:11 passage, the Hebrew says: vedoresh el hametim (unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a Hebrew font in this sw?). drash as a root means to seek or search out. Metim means the dead. So this phrase literally translated means to seek for the dead themselves, or perhaps for insights/information which they may possess.
The line between witchcraft and prayer is often a thin one. I suspect that most of us have crossed it at times, myself included. I understand the diffe | | |
