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StephMichele
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 11:45 am |
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Hi, I am new to the forum although I have been a lurcher for a year. I am a new convert. I am happy to say that I was baptised Easter 2006 into the Roman Catholic Church and it is the best thing I have ever done. Reading this forum has helped tremendously with many of my questions and I have enjoyed reading it daily. I just had to screw up my courage and join.
My question is anyone have used St. Louis De Montfort's True Devotion to Mary for consecration and what are your opinions? I am developing a deep love and devotion for Our Lady but still have some nagging, not doubts; but hesitations. In my late teens my parents belonged to Lakewood Church in Houston where Joel Osteen is now and it is pretty anti-Catholic. I love the Church so much and want to embrace everything. How do you know when your devotions go to far?
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japhy
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 12:46 pm |
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Devotion to Mary should always lead you to Jesus. Protestant detractors will say that any devotion to Mary detracts from Jesus or "adds to Jesus". While this is not true, it is possible to end up concentrating so much on Jesus's mother that you ignore Jesus himself.
I wrote up something about general devotions to Mary on my blog two weeks ago: http://thecrossreference.blogspot.com/2007/04/scripture-devotion-to-mary-john-25.html
If you find yourself ignoring Jesus and "preferring" Mary, you're doing something wrong. Remember that Mary's grace was not her own, and was her unmerited gift from God the Father. God enabled Mary to do all she did, and it was by God's grace that she had the courage to say "yes" to Him. Devotion to Mary should foster love for the entire Holy Family as well as the entire Holy Trinity.
Ad Iesum par Mariam, it is said, but remember that the destination is always Jesus.
And as far as "adding to Jesus", I believe we get more out of Jesus by not ignoring his blessed mother.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 12:47 pm |
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StephMichele wrote: Hi, I am new to the forum although I have been a lurcher for a year. I am a new convert. I am happy to say that I was baptised Easter 2006 into the Roman Catholic Church and it is the best thing I have ever done. Reading this forum has helped tremendously with many of my questions and I have enjoyed reading it daily. I just had to screw up my courage and join.
We're glad to have you here with us, and look forward to your active participation. Please let us know if you have any questions, or if we can help in any way. Maybe your presence will encourage some of our other lurkers to get more involved.
We also look forward to hearing your faith story when you're ready to share it with us.
Welcome to CHN, and welcome home.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 03:23 pm |
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Well, I find that I just let it develop naturally, trusting God will lead me toward what I need and send warnings when things are going too far. I think that we all could love Mary even more. Obviously the only place our love should not take us is to worship. But short of worship we could love her as much as we could desire. Of course as the other reply said, if we were not growing closer to Jesus through our devotion to her than something is wrong because if we love her we would do what she wants us to do, Which is love and obey her son. I think that we should love her at least as much if not more than any human person except Jesus.
I find she guides and inspires me to want to be a more perfect follower who is willing to surrender what he wants for what God asks of him. Mary had a great privilege, but it cost her a lot. She lost stability, the dreams and security a woman would want. She had to share her son with the world, live as a widow, travel around while threatened just as her family was new. Not to mention she had to watch her beautiful Son be killed violently by the very people He came to serve.
So basically I realize that life is not about getting what we want, but being willing to follow wherever we must follow. Mary lives and understands that state of surrender. She should be loved as we love our mother. So to answer your question I would ask, how far would we go in loving our own physical mother (if things are ideal between you and her). How much would we love someone who always prays for us and seeks God's will continually. Sounds like a very loveable person. 
As far asd the consecration to Mary. That scared me a little too when I read it. So I never personally made the commitment. But I did read enough of it to know that it is consecrating to Jesus through Mary. I guess the idea is partially that when we ask for things or do works for God they can be clouded with pride or selfish ambition. So when we give it to Mary and ask her to present the work prayer or suffering to Jesus since she is so pure and understands what pleases Him so perfectly she sort of presents it to Him minus the blemishes and wraps it up and offers her own love and merit to make up for what we maybe were lackig in.
I occasionally when I question my motives or a situation will ask Mary to offer it to God for me so that where I may be guilty of seeking for my own desires she can pray more that God's will be done and she understands more what that looks like. So if I am praying for something I do not really need, I trust she can ask God for what I really need but just can not see. I do not know if I am explaining this well. But don't worry if you don't understand it or feel the need to participate.
I find the devotions that fit us best sort of find us at appropriate times and make sense to us as we are ready to handle them. You do not need to practice every devotion and prayer, just what is beneficial to get you closer to God. Too much can weigh us down. But we should ofer our best. There are still prayers or writings about Mary that I am uncomfortable with and I just do not worry about them. I simply try to foster love for Mary and say certain prayers and devotions with her and occasionally speak with her and listen to her as I would a perfect Mother, and she guides me to Jesus.
Nothing more than this is needed. I am particularly fond of praying the rosary on a daily basis and I think it is a powerful prayer and tool for bringing us closer to Jesus and Mary and winning great graces for those we offer it for.
I pray you just realize that your desire to love the Blessed Mother has already got you where you need to be and trust that God will keep you safe as long as your intention is to worship only Him and to love His mother as part of that worship. But just let it develop naturally and talk to Him and her about it. They will not guide you wrong. Im still figuring it out and at times wonder the same thing you are wondering. I find I am more free the more I realize that God knows I only worship Him, but it hinders my love for both of them when I ask myself every 5 minutes, am i loving Mary too much. God knows our hearts. He knows it is Him and Him alone that we give our worship to. We do not need to be afraid that if we say the wrong word or pray the wrong prayer that all is lost. The church keeps us safe. As long as we do not go beyond what we see exemplified in the saints and devotions and liturgy of the church we will be in good territory in loving our Mother, yet our relationship with her will be unique to us in ways we need it to.
Not sure if I helped or confused you or just said too much, but I think you seem to be headed in a wonderful direction.
"Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Mother too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did." -St. Maximilian Kolbe
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 03:55 pm |
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Stephanie, I want to welcome you to the forum, too.
Regarding the Montfortian Consecration to Mary, I am aware of it and have known some people who made the consecration. However, even though I am quite devoted to Mary myself, I have not personally made that consecration. Everyone’s calling is unique.
My feeling about consecration to Mary for new converts is that at least until a couple of years have passed and that “hesitation” you speak of dies down, one should not be consecrated. (As a new convert decades ago, I too had my “hesitations” about Mary. It took me about two years as a Catholic to feel comfortable with her.) Once you are able to consider it without hesitation, that is the time to proceed.
Meanwhile, I can recommend the works and spirituality of St. Louis de Montfort for continued reading if they inspire you. If not, there is certainly no obligation, just as there is no obligation to devotion to Mary.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 01:09 am |
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brian wrote:
I pray you just realize that your desire to love the Blessed Mother has already got you where you need to be and trust that God will keep you safe as long as your intention is to worship only Him and to love His mother as part of that worship. But just let it develop naturally and talk to Him and her about it. They will not guide you wrong. Im still figuring it out and at times wonder the same thing you are wondering. I find I am more free the more I realize that God knows I only worship Him, but it hinders my love for both of them when I ask myself every 5 minutes, am i loving Mary too much. God knows our hearts. He knows it is Him and Him alone that we give our worship to. We do not need to be afraid that if we say the wrong word or pray the wrong prayer that all is lost. The church keeps us safe. As long as we do not go beyond what we see exemplified in the saints and devotions and liturgy of the church we will be in good territory in loving our Mother, yet our relationship with her will be unique to us in ways we need it to.
Brian or anyone else, I'm just trying to understand where one should draw the line when it comes to devotion to Mary. You mention worship Brian. What do you consider to be worship that would be acceptable for Jesus and our Heavenly Father, but not Mary? How does one know if they are venturing into dangerous terriotory and end of worshipping Mary? I have heard many say that they venerate Mary, but do not worship her. I've looked up the definition and the dictionary equates veneration with worship. So again, I'm just a bit confused on this matter. What would a Catholic consider to be worship and how is that different than the devotion one shows to Mary?
Please try to be very specific in your answers because this is something I need to understand. Thanks in advance for all of your comments. Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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StephMichele
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 01:43 am |
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Thank you for the welcome and the responses. I noticed a peace when I finally learned to say a daily Rosary or even a just a Rosary as often as possible. That made me want to learn about Mary. The more I open my heart to her, the more open my heart is to her. She is my example and she makes me want to love Christ more and to please Him more. I don't know how.
As far as prayers, would it be better to say them through Mary or directly to Jesus? According to my True Devotion to Mary, I should always go through Mary to get to Jesus. If I say prayers through Mary, does that mean that I am really praying to Mary? I don't want to pray to Mary. What I wind up doing is saying my prayers to Jesus and asking Mary to intercede on my behalf. I am just confused.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 02:22 am |
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StephMichele wrote: As far as prayers, would it be better to say them through Mary or directly to Jesus? According to my True Devotion to Mary, I should always go through Mary to get to Jesus. If I say prayers through Mary, does that mean that I am really praying to Mary? I don't want to pray to Mary. What I wind up doing is saying my prayers to Jesus and asking Mary to intercede on my behalf. I am just confused.
The American Heritage Dictionary gives four definitions of the verb "pray":
- To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
- To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: [color=""]Pray be careful.
- To make a devout or earnest request for: [color=""]I pray your permission to speak.
- To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.
Given the actual definition, what possible problem could there be in praying to God, Mary, the saints, or your next door neighbor? A request to a politician to pave the street in front of your house is a "prayer".
Protestants have reassigned the meaning of the word to make Catholics look bad, and I grant that the word is more often used today in the first definition than in the other three. But it still doesn't change the fact that "to pray" does not mean "to adore". Adoration is due to God alone, but when we ask our friends to pray for us, we are in fact praying to them. And if I can pray to my neighbor or fellow church member, why should I not pray to the Mother of God?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 03:06 am |
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Darlene,
I really do not know how to answer you. I am learning more as I go. I feel I am being taught what to do and what not to do. I just sort of know when my heart feels right to talk with Mary and ask her for help and it just makes sense to me to do that.
I can not explain how my love is or is not worship, except that I would tell God how I worship Him, submit to Him, trust in His salvation; and I would not say the same things to or about Mary in that way. I acknowledge that Mary's goodness is still a product of God's grace and therfore recognize my love for her is just leading to appreciating the work of God's hands and the example of one totally submitted to Him. I feel Ok bowing to statues of Mary out of respect but not like a worshipful respect. I kiss icons or statues of her. But I never just sit and try to become one with her and just silently adore her with no abandon the way I would for the Trinity. I sit and appreciate her comfort and care, but I can sit and just long to give the Trinity every ounce of all that I am...(on a good day)
I guess the thing is I realize Mary is a creature. Though immaculately conceived and in heaven and a very Holy creature, she is human. Not divine and human like Jesus. So I guess I just feel comfortable loving her like I would the most wonderful humans I know. My love for her is more like that of people I know on earth who just radiate the love of Christ. It is really Christ in them I love so much. I guess I do not feel like I could worship Mary because as amazing as she is she is not worthy of worship. She is not an eternal being (from eternity past) she is not the one who created the heavens and the earth. She is not the one who died on the cross for my sins. She is mother of God the Word made flesh, but not God the Trinity.
I love her like I love someone on earth who seems to just really come through for me in the most delicate and painful situations. I love her like I would my own mother. I love her in amazement for the fact that she is the living ark of the covenant. She bore Christ literally inside of her. She was found worthy of that task! I love her becuase no human being has done as much to lead me to salvation as she has done and continues to do (because she is the one Jesus gets to us from). My love of her is a love that is rooted in appreciating her submission to one greater than her and pointing me to Him.
I guess I feel capable of loving her more and more because I do not think I could worship her. I just know that it is not natural or the way I was created. But the more I love her the more I see I was created to love her wholeheartedly and unashamedly and trust that God entrusts great privileges to her and she uses them on our behalf.
I guess, Darlene, what I am saying is that I never worried that all the human people or celebtrities or missionaries saints or bible teachers I ever loved did I ever feel like I was too close to worshipping them. With Mary we just find it tough as former protestants because of the fears we take with us. We know in our heart what the difference is between loving God and loving a spouse, friend, or family member. It is just inate. I find that given time and letting it develop slowly and naturally that loving Mary is also innate, its just something that we took too many steps backward in as protestants with misconcpetions.
Maybe I am not answering the question well enough, but my point is that I see Mary as a creature. A beautiful one, and a great example, but not one who made this all possible. Just one who lived extrmely well within the framework of the hand of the almighty. It was His plan and I worship Him for that, but it was her 'fiat' and I look up to her so that I may too live within God's plan. I love her as I would a creature, but at a severely heightened level because she does so much for us and is the Mother of the church and Queen of Heaven. And being that she is the mother of Jesus, I love her like I think He would want me to, and share His love for her. I love her somewhere between more than my highest love for people I know on earth and the other saints, but much less than the worship and total submission and adoration I give to God alone.
As far as specifics, well I simply ask Mary to pray for me. I talk to her like a friend or mother. But I do this as one seeking help to folow God's will. It is the Eucharist and the sacrifice of the mass that remains the true worship of the church. Devotions to Mary and the saints are just something to help us stay faithful so that we can live for that true worship which is total sacrifice, surrender, and unity with Jesus through prayer and the Eucharist.
My main point is that given the proper understanding that devotion to her only brings me closer to Jesus (which is what she wants so much for us), that she does not want worship, and that God wants me to feel free to love her, well, I just don't feel capable of worshipping her, so I just let my heart do what seems natural in regards to my devotions to her. I used to feel in more fear about it and would try to worry about it, but over time it just started falling into place and I felt the Holy Spirit sort of spoke to my conscience and encouraged me along the way as to how to be at peace with this. The important thing is that I never stopped nor did I try to do too much for me to handle. I still doubt I will ever consecarte myself to her like this post is about, but my devotion to her is my own and one that I think God leads me toward for my edification at a pace that is good for me and keeps me centered in His love. So the best advice I could give would be to seek to understand what devotion to Mary is all about and this will guard, guide, and encourage you along the way, and she herself will be a great encouragement in your love for Him, because nobody loved Him more than she does so where else would we want to go to catch the fire. Many times in life I love feeling close to holy people and sharing their friendship and fellowship because something of them teaches me in such powerful and subtle ways. Their love is contagious. What a great reason to sit with Mary and ask her to teach us how to better love Her son. Sometimes getting rid of selfishness is a matter of seeing through someone elses perspective. I can think of nobody who I would rather share the perspective of than Mary who's love of God is such a profound mystery. He was her Son and Savior. the victim of Calvary, Victor over death, and the babe in her arms.
Have I helped you...?
Brian
Last edited on Sat May 12th, 2007 03:59 am by brian
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brian
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 03:57 am |
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If I could say one more thing on a practical level, Darlene, it would be that a lot of my knowing what to do or not do in regards to love and worship came from simply being around the church and other Catholics (or EWTN and ither media) who I admired. I learned from them what devotion to Mary looked like. This is extremely helpful. It helped me too that these were people who obviously loved and worshipped Jesus.
And this answer would not be good for someone who is still woried that maybe Catholics go too far in their love of Mary. But the longer I was in the church and trusted the Church the more I was willing to stop being so critical and tedious about what devotion to Mary should look like. I saw that Jesus was still in a unique position as our Lord, and Mary's fame is centered around her privileges regarding Him and obedience to God. I knew if anything set off any alarms like people flat out saying they worshipped her or calling her equal to God I would flee and run away. But nothing like that has ever happened near me (though I can't say it has never happened anywhere in the world, but I still have ntot seen it).
My point is that I think that though some people in the church can go in weird directions and we are not perfect and it is good to test the spirits and be careful what we trust; that certain things I do want to trust if the source is trustworthy and I am given no reason not to. So when I see large groups of people growing in Holiness and loving Mary a certain way, I stat to think that the Holy Spirit would not have guided us here if it were so against what He wanted. When I see things going right, glorifiying God, and fostering obedience to Him I trust it. I used to worry what if it were a trick of the devil, but the devil would hate leading usa to anything that fostered a greater love for God and personal holiness. You know by the fruits if a tree is good or bad and a kingdom divided against itself will not stand.
I think the devotions to Mary that develop are helpful and moreso something that is revealed than something we just make up. So in this sense I think a great way to learn devotion to her is to be near it more and more. To ask questions of Catholics (like you are doing now) and then to slowly start to imitate and customize and make personal what you learn from others as you are comfortable. Mary is quite charitable. She doesn't mind if we let ask her to wait for us to figure it out or that we hesitate before jumping in.
The other thing I will say is that seeing what others do can be scary which is why it is important to not just see them but to see them and understand the mind of the church in regards to this matter and be able to be close enough to them that you see how free they are to love Mary, yet how they understand that it is God who they worship.
by the way as far as who to pray to, Steph, I do not only pray to Mary or Jesus. I talk to both of them. I find it important to go to both at different times. Sorry if you werre asking something else or I misunderstood you.
Brian
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StephMichele
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 09:23 am |
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| Thank you. I understand now. I think my confusion came in because I thought maybe because I talk to her so much and pray to her, although I would back track and then ask her to intercede; that actually that meant I was maybe worshiping her. Brian mentioned my relationship with my mother and it is not and has never been ideal. In fact, we are estranged. She has addiction issues and relates to me as if she is one of my children. Having Mary as an example helps me both as a mother and as a daughter without maternal love.
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brian
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 07:45 pm |
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I do think that it is important even when we directly ask Mary for things or pray "to her" that we always understand in the back of our mind that we are asking her to pray for us. We sometimes word it in a way that does not mention this, but it really is what we intend. If I say 'Mary help me to be a better son' or some other request, I really am intending that she help me through praying for me and obtaining me the graces I need through prayer to complete the task or imporve at the relationship, or I am just asking her to help me by providing advice or encouragment or an example for me to follow. I do not know eactly how it works or what she is capable of or not or how God sets this all up, I only know that it all flows throuh Him and what He allows and wills. It pleases Him to allow Mary to help us. But sometimes we talk to her a certain way, and it is important that deep down we realize that it is her intercession we truly long for, and not necessarily for her to personally fix things, but we sort of attribute things to and thank her anyway because she was who God used to help us i na matter.
Anyway, I personally would recommend that you still try to spend more time and give more affction to Jesus. I would not suggest anyone replace talking to Jesus with Mary, or find themselves talking more to her than Him, but I do not think we need to try to be too calculating about it. We simply ought to know in our heart our priorites of love and devotion and simply act accordingly. And we need to realize that our love for her is really not to her glory but to the glory of God.
This is my opinion on the matter. Perhaps there are reasons why it is ok for other people to see it slightly differently or why some prefer to use her intercession more often than going directly to God, but I find it good to do both and to favor praying in a variety of levels (especially silence and reverence) to the Trinity.
It also helps to memorize some prayers directed to different directions as well, so we do not go on our own but build on the wonderful traditions laid out before us. Sounds like Mary is the Mother you need.
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 10:45 pm |
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brian wrote: I do think that it is important even when we directly ask Mary for things or pray "to her" that we always understand in the back of our mind that we are asking her to pray for us. We sometimes word it in a way that does not mention this, but it really is what we intend.
Very true, Brian. It's amazing to see how quickly your thought patterns are becoming "Catholic"!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 01:44 am |
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Well, I think I may have stolen this thought or wording from something I heard from you anyway, come to think about it. Forgive me if I am passing off your thoughts as they were my own, but I figure truth is truth and we may as well pass it on. It belongs to God. But I hate taking credit (or I should) for things that I just picked up along the way, but that's the way it goes sometimes.
So maybe you're complimenting me because I am finally reminding you of yourself...lol
In any case, thanks for the encouragment. Good to know I may be on the right track sometimes.
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 02:31 am |
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brian wrote: In any case, thanks for the encouragment. Good to know I may be on the right track sometimes.
My point is that you're understanding that your intention is what really matters. I can spend a half hour on my knees before the Blessed Sacrament adoring Jesus in the Eucharist, or I can spend a half hour on my knees before the Blessed Sacrament thinking and wishing that bad things would happen to everyone who ever annoyed me. The former is worthy, the latter is most likely sinful, and the only difference is my intention.
It matters less what you do or what others see as what God knows is in your heart. You know you're not worshipping Mary, and so you're not. End of story.
And if I say something you feel worthy to adopt as your own, go for it! Unless you're making money from it, of course. Since I'm unemployed and have moved past broke, I will expect a check. 
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Candlemass
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| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, RCC for life! |
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 09:24 am |
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| Steve Brown said he has a "hit list", those who greatly offended him, he would pray that God would kill them! He would work through this in prayer untill he could love them, it is impossible to love those who have wounded us deeply, without the grace of God active in our lives, and it is still hard! Last edited on Sun May 13th, 2007 09:24 am by Candlemass
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brian
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 07:33 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
It matters less what you do or what others see as what God knows is in your heart. You know you're not worshipping Mary, and so you're not. End of story.
I agree a lot, though I would hope you would admit that there is a limit to this reasoning. It is possible to act according to what we think are the best of intentions and still violate the moral code. We can mean well in our heart and still be very wrong ethically. Perhaps we are less culpable (is that the right word) but from an ethical standpoint some sort of offense against God's holiness occurred
After all I often hear people warn that though we do not have hand made idols today we still violate the command by worshipping possesions, money, power, celbrity, etc.
So I suppose it is possible for someone to think they do not intend to worship Mary but then act in such a way that she is getting the first place in their heart.
Maybe I am wrong. Just a thought.
And I certainly do not want to negate anything I was trying to argue in my earlier posts.
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 08:37 pm |
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brian wrote: cajunrick wrote:
It matters less what you do or what others see as what God knows is in your heart. You know you're not worshiping Mary, and so you're not. End of story.
I agree a lot, though I would hope you would admit that there is a limit to this reasoning. It is possible to act according to what we think are the best of intentions and still violate the moral code.
Brian, our interior disposition determines sin in all cases. There is no serious sin that does not meet the three conditions, which are that it must be a serious evil which we commit knowingly and willingly. Yes, it is possible to commit a crime without knowledge. It is possible do break the moral code without knowledge. It is even possible to do grave evil without knowledge. However, it is not possible to commit mortal sin without knowledge. It simply cannot happen.
Violating the commandment by placing Mary before God is a mortal sin. It is possible to appear to place Mary first while not actually doing it, and it is possible to place Mary before God without appearing to do so. The latter is a mortal sin; the former is not. In the same way, it is possible to go to church on Sunday and look like the world's greatest Christian, while living the rest of the week stealing from others, committing adultery, etc. It is not the exterior appearance that matters, but our interior disposition. It's not enough to cry "Lord, Lord" but we must have Jesus in our hearts, and live according to his word.
Of course, this is simplified and ignores such things as creating scandal, misleading others, etc., which are also sins in their own right and may or may not be mortally sinful. If I give the appearance of placing Mary first, I might not be committing a mortal sin in my devotion to Mary, but perhaps the example I am giving others will be mortally sinful. I think that's where you might be becoming confused. My exterior actions might mislead others in a sinful manner, but that is not the sin of idolatry, it is the sin of scandal.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 09:43 pm |
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Well I think we are agreed. My point is that actions are still either "right" or "wrong" regardless of intent. Not as to what is sin or not sin or mortal sin. And that how we will be judged between the matters of intentions and actions God will perfectly execute. But while it is more important that we do things with the best of intentions it would also bode well for us to try to learn objectively what pleases God and what displeases Him and act accordingly WITH our heart in the right place to match.
That it is still better to do the right thing with the right intention than the wrong thing with the right intention or right thing with the wrong intention. And that it is possible to do what is "wrong" and negatively affect oneself regardless of whether we intended the evil. If for instance someone did not believe a certain action was wrong they still take on or affect certain negative consequences outwardly regarldess of their inner disposition.
Basically, I would think we are seeing eye to eye. I am not finding disagreement or disharmony with anything you have said. I am just trying to see how we can understand it from different angles and what the implications are.
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 10:04 pm |
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brian wrote: Well I think we are agreed. My point is that actions are still either "right" or "wrong" regardless of intent.
Absolutely. But intent is what determines sin. And idolatry, the focus of this thread, is a sin of intent, not action. Even if our actions are wrong, we may be mislead or misguided or mistaken and still not be committing sin, or at least not mortal sin.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 10:19 pm |
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| So suppose that I spend hours watching TV. I find comfort in it, peace in it, essentially I live for it. I love the peace it gives me more than anything. But I have not actually examonied my conscience to realize it or felt convicted. Say I never intended on making it into an idol and in my heart believed my | | |
