 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Prayerie Pal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
| Posts: | 254 |
| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 08:10 pm |
|
The Virgin and the Allegory of the Bee
Our Lady, Blessed Mary, gave birth to the Son of God without corruption, because the Holy Spirit came upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadowed her (cf. Lk 1:35).
She was the good bee (cf. Sir 11:3). She was small, because of her humility, and round, because she contemplated heavenly glory, which is without beginning or end. She was made dense by charity, for one who carried charity in her womb for nine months could not lack charity. She was compact because of her poverty and cleaner than all others because of her virginity.
To give a friend the gift of “A Moment with Mary”:
- this link
I get these 'Moments with Mary" every day and I love them! This one was the most unique and profound one yet. I've never heard this allegory before about Mary. It got me to thinking of one honest, hungry seeker of Truth that we know who is almost Catholic, but having the one obstacle...that of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady. Well this sure sums it up, but it also made me think of this, not profound at all, but nothing much new under the sun, only said in different words by different folks:
Since Jesus made his own Mother, to give him a 'home' for nine months as he grew from a zygote to embryo to infant...I realzed that as Mother's give their babies in their wombs nourishemt through their bloodstream, how could Jesus have had ANYTHING else but PUREST BLOOD flowing to his growing body? I mean, this seems like such a "silly" obtacle when you stop to think of it, doesn't it? Or is it because it's so simple that it's so hard to grasp? I mean, this man is a M.D. and very intelligent...sometimes THAT can be such an obtacle!  But I know this man loves the Church and is struggling with this tough journey of nearly 4 years so far. I"m not making light of his problem with the Immaculate Conception, but really.... how could God have not made a PURE dwelling for himself, since light cannot share in darkeness. IF Mary were "just one of us" like us in 'needing a savior' she'd be 'tainted, not "full of Grace." So she was saved BEFORE she ever sinned...still proclaiming her 'need' of a Savior as in her Magnificat. Please pray for Ivan as he tries to get over this hurdle. I know he's sincere and so is his wife. They are so lovely a couple and we're honored to know them. She is struggling in a battle with cancer now, so they need much prayer. Thank you all. They have 4 children, 2 girls 2 boys. The boys are more open to the CC than the girls at this point. They're all just "about Home" so pray for them that they receive the grace that has brought them this far...and that Ivan will be "okay" with mystery about this aspect of our faith. If the Church is right on all that he's found thus far, She's also right on this, ....right? It comes down to authority and it always does....
PAX,
susie
Last edited on Wed Jun 13th, 2007 08:11 pm by Prayerie Pal
____________________
God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
|
|
|
susiedear
Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | Twin Cities, Minnesota USA |
| Posts: | 186 |
| First Name: | Elizabeth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Pentecostal / Evangelical / Catholic! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 04:53 pm |
|
Dear Susie, now that I'm Catholic, (and long before), I always wondered why people are so hung up over Mary. Why can't we just love her? She opened the doors of Salvation for us!
I was having lunch with some old friends who think I have gone off the deep end because of my conversion. Their objections to Mary are boiled down to one verse: "For all have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory" (Rom. 3:23). Mary is one of us, she therefore was full of sin, so the whole Immaculate Conception dogma cannot be right. Their minds won't budge.
So I'm glad for your friend Ivan and his wife, that their minds aren't closed with a steel trap door. Are they open to asking for Our Lady's intercession on their behalf? If so, once they discover the tremendous advocate she is for us, they can come to believe in her Immaculate Conception.
I will join my prayers with yours, that Our Lady will bring them solace, that Jesus will bring them healing, and that their day of homecoming will be soon.
Elizabeth
____________________
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
|
|
|
CajunRick
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 05:21 pm |
|
susiedear wrote: I was having lunch with some old friends who think I have gone off the deep end because of my conversion. Their objections to Mary are boiled down to one verse: "For all have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory" (Rom. 3:23). Mary is one of us, she therefore was full of sin, so the whole Immaculate Conception dogma cannot be right. Their minds won't budge.
If "all" means "all" then Jesus sinned, too. And if there can be one exception, there can be others. If Jesus would exempt anyone, it would certainly be his mother.
|
|
|
japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 229 |
| First Name: | Jeff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Roman Rite) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 06:09 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote: susiedear wrote: I was having lunch with some old friends who think I have gone off the deep end because of my conversion. Their objections to Mary are boiled down to one verse: "For all have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory" (Rom. 3:23). Mary is one of us, she therefore was full of sin, so the whole Immaculate Conception dogma cannot be right. Their minds won't budge.
If "all" means "all" then Jesus sinned, too. And if there can be one exception, there can be others. If Jesus would exempt anyone, it would certainly be his mother.
I remind Protestants that Jesus kept Mary free from sin, not because of who she was, but because of who he is. That is, Mary wasn't extra-special because of her own particularly good fortune, she was prepared that way by God, for Himself, for the very purpose of giving birth to His Incarnation.
Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2007 06:10 pm by japhy
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 07:26 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote: susiedear wrote: I was having lunch with some old friends who think I have gone off the deep end because of my conversion. Their objections to Mary are boiled down to one verse: "For all have sinned and have fallen short of God's glory" (Rom. 3:23). Mary is one of us, she therefore was full of sin, so the whole Immaculate Conception dogma cannot be right. Their minds won't budge.
If "all" means "all" then Jesus sinned, too. And if there can be one exception, there can be others. If Jesus would exempt anyone, it would certainly be his mother.
Rick, If you look into Romans 3:23, I think it is rather clear that this passage is referring to all those who are born of Adam (taking the whole chapter into consideration). I think all of scripture combined makes it rather obvious that to even insinuate that "all" could in any way include Jesus is absurd. The "all" who are spoken of are clearly those who are born of the flesh (Adam)only.
In other words, I don't think your comment that "If all means all then Jesus sinned too" is a logical defense for the Immaculate Conception.
As far as I understand thus far, I think the Orthodox interpretation makes more sense. (I hope I'm understanding it well enough) The Orthodox believe that Mary was cleansed of sin just prior to the Incarnation. Thus she can call God her Savior, and Jesus dwelt in a body that was cleansed of sin.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
CajunRick
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 07:57 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: The Orthodox believe that Mary was cleansed of sin just prior to the Incarnation.
Actually, that's not my understanding. The Orthodox problem with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception deals with differences in their understanding of Original Sin, not with the sinlessness of Mary.
To quote an article from the web site of the Ukranian Orthodox Church:
Therefore, the Mother of God never had any stain of any sin, original or actual, on her soul, according to the faith of the Church, especially as celebrated in the liturgical tradition of the Eastern Church.
At the same time, the Church has always believed that God sanctified the Mother of God from her conception in the womb of her mother, St Anne.
This was not to "preserve her free of the stain of Original Sin" but to prepare her for her great role as Mother of the Word Incarnate, as She from whom God the Son would take His Flesh to effect our salvation.
The Feast of the Conception of St Anne is an ancient one in the Church that reflects the teachings of scriptural texts that are outside the canon of the New Testament (but nonetheless valid as part of Tradition, as the New Testament is itself part of Tradition) and the belief of the Church itself that Mary's Conception was sanctified and holy.
The Church can only celebrate the Feasts of Saints. And this means that to celebrate the Conception of the Mother of God is to celebrate her as a Saint already, at the time of her Conception.
So you can see that the Orthodox belief in the sinlessness of Mary from the first moment of her conception is identical to the Catholic belief. The difference is in their understanding of Original Sin.
Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2007 07:58 pm by
|
|
|
Katy
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | DFW, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 78 |
| First Name: | Katy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-denom/Bible churches, Catholic since Easter 2005 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 08:02 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: Thus she can call God her Savior....
Jesus was her Savior, he just saved her at the moment she was conceived.
____________________
Lord, by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.
|
|
|
Prayerie Pal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
| Posts: | 254 |
| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 09:54 pm |
|
I'm glad for your friend Ivan and his wife, that their minds aren't closed with a steel trap door. Are they open to asking for Our Lady's intercession on their behalf? If so, once they discover the tremendous advocate she is for us, they can come to believe in her Immaculate Conception.
Thank you, Elizabeth, your prayers are very appreciated. I think our friends are open. Mary grew up Catholic but left during her teens in Puerto Rico due to the Evangelical persuasiveness of a couple sweet born again Christians, but now that they're strongly considering the CC, I do believe they're open to Our Lady's intercession. They both grew up seeing some bizarred occultic and or voodoo type stuff mixed in with the Catholicism they grew up around, so they're sorting out a lot in their lives on this tumultuous journey.
PAX,
susie
____________________
God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
|
|
|
Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 667 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 10:25 am |
|
Prayerie Pal wrote:
To give a friend the gift of “A Moment with Mary”:
- this link
Thanks for the link, I signed up for it  Hopefully I can add prayer into my morning a bit easier with this. I am a big procrastinator 
Ali
|
|
|
Prayerie Pal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
| Posts: | 254 |
| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 10:43 am |
|
Thanks for the link, I signed up for it Hopefully I can add prayer into my morning a bit easier with this. I am a big procrastinator
I know what you mean....I should have left for work an hour ago! 
Glad the link will be helpful to you...they're great short meditations!
PAX,
pp
____________________
God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 17th, 2007 05:10 am |
|
Susie
how could Jesus have had ANYTHING else but PUREST BLOOD flowing to his growing body? I mean, this seems like such a "silly" obtacle when you stop to think of it, doesn't it? Or is it because it's so simple that it's so hard to grasp? I mean, this man is a M.D. and very intelligent...sometimes THAT can be such an obtacle! But I know this man loves the Church and is struggling with this tough journey of nearly 4 years so far. I"m not making light of his problem with the Immaculate Conception, but really.... how could God have not made a PURE dwelling for himself, since light cannot share in darkeness. IF Mary were "just one of us" like us in 'needing a savior' she'd be 'tainted, not "full of Grace." So she was saved BEFORE she ever sinned...still proclaiming her 'need' of a Savior as in her Magnificat.
I think your right about somethings being so simple, yet for those with a higher IQ may struggle with doctrines and teaching a little more than those like myself.
I was just going to mention that if you were able to get your friends to listen to Dr. Scott Hahns conversion tape, He goes through and explains a couple situation's of his own that he admits that through his study and research the CC has been right on all these other topics that he was going to give it the benefit of the doubt on the remainder of his issues and go ahead with his conversion. I just thought that it may help your friends to continue on when they heard a very well educated protestant pastor and his considerations of his few last & final obsticles that were holding him back.
https://secure.catholicity.com/cds/
May the Lord Bless your friends and bring them into the fullness of truth.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
Prayerie Pal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
| Posts: | 254 |
| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 17th, 2007 12:57 pm |
|
Thank you very much, Betty for your prayers and information for our friends. I think Ivan has read many of Scott Hahn's books but it wouldn't hurt to send him an email to ask him and or remind him. Thanks again!
PAX,
susie
____________________
God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
|
|
|
knitter
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Aug 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | West Coast, USA |
| Posts: | 10 |
| First Name: | knitter | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist-Neo Pagan-Buddhist-Heretic-Questor |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 01:51 pm |
|
I'm a new forum member here, and I'm just beginning on my path, but even as a former Baptist, the Immaculate Conception makes perfect sense, if you see Christianity as poetry and not prose.
In prose, you get the nonsensical interpretations that have lead to Fundamentalism. You try to make "the facts" of the religion fit your interpretation. God planted fossils in the ground as a test of Man's faith.
In poetry, you let go of facts, and let the images speak to you in a deep level of your heart. So icons and statues and holy water and concepts like the Immaculate Conception which focus our minds on the mystery without trying too hard to explain the details. God will work out the details in the believer's heart. God gives belief to the faithful. Just let the symbols work within you.
Prose and poetry are worked out in different areas of the brain. Prose is analytical and mathematical. Poetry is visual and symbolic. Neither is better, but they work out differently in the human psyche.
Poetically speaking, if Jesus was to be born sinless, then he needed a mother who had no "issues" of her own to pass down to her child; no emotional baggage. It's no where in the bible, but the internal logic of the poetry is such that it Must be true for the faith to make sense.
Right?
Last edited on Thu Aug 9th, 2007 01:54 pm by knitter
____________________
~.~.~
The kingdom of God is among you.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 02:51 pm |
|
knitter wrote: I'm a new forum member here,
And we're happy to have you. Welcome to the Coming Home Network. We will do our best to answer any questions you might have, and to walk with you on your faith journey, wherever it might happen to lead.
We also look forward to reading your faith story when you're ready to share it with us. Grab your keyboard, kick your shoes off, and jump in wherever you see a thread that interests you. We love active members who want to learn more about the Catholic faith, and to share their Christianity with the rest of us.
Welcome to CHN. We're thrilled to have you here with us.
|
|
|
Prayerie Pal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
| Posts: | 254 |
| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 10:47 am |
|
Hi Knitter and welcome! Love what you wrote! Prose/poetry....excellent way to describe it! I have the heart of a poet, that's for sure...not that I'm a "good one" but I think that's why I was so disillusioned in the Evangelic fray for over 16 years. It was to "pat answerish" and I struggled with that...my heart knew there was much mystery, much we DID not and COULD not know from the "bible alone" mentality. IN fact my recent post, "Would you like fries with that" on our RECONnecting to the Truth blog sum up my thoughts about that subject.
Bless you and I'm so glad you're here!
PAX,
susie
httiP//revertconvert.blogspot.com
http://underthepoetree.blogspot.com
____________________
God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
|
|
|
Racaela Fultz
Member
| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 146 |
| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:19 pm |
|
OH MY GOODNESS, knitter, that was BEAUTIFUL! That so sums up the problem I'm having! To my parents, ardent fundamentalists, it has to be prose. Anyone who sees anything else is wrong. I'm hearing poetry and loving it, following it, and that's a no-no. People who insist that everything in the Bible must be taken literally...they miss the absolute beauty that is there when you really open your eyes to see and remove the narrow glasses!
And someone earlier asked why everyone can't just love Mary rather than fighting over it. That is so true. I love her, she's my mother, and when I said that to my sister the other day - the sister who's okay with my exploration of Catholicism though she doesn't want me to talk about it with her because it's "boring" - I think she was kind of shocked. Really, though, I remember, as a protestant and a fundamentalist, that I didn't used to like Mary, not really. I thought she was cool (being Jesus' mother) but that everyone made too much of a fuss over her. She played her part, and that was that. The idea of loving her was foriegn. What a change now!
I really do have a few things to add, though. First, just before Romans 3:23, Romans 3:10 says: "As it is written, there is no one who is righteous, not even one." Clear enough, right? Wrong. Look at Luke 1:6, which writes of Zechariah and Elizabeth: "Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord." Wait - that says they were righteous before God, but I thought there were none righteous - what's going on?! See my point. It may say that all have sinned, but it also says that none were righteous, and that's not true.
Now I'm going to put on my Greek scholar hat. I mentioned this bit in another thread, but I think it fits here. Gabriel greets Mary, calling her "full of grace." The word used there is fascinating, as there is so much combined in this. I'm going to try to simplify this so that everyone understands. The word is from the base "to fill with grace." It is a participle, meaning that it describes Mary and essentially means: "she who is filled with grace." Also, note that it is passive - Mary is filled with grace by something else. Greek also has a middle voice, which, if used, would mean "she who is filled with grace in some way because of who she is or by what she has done." But, the middle is not used. Instead, it's the passive: "She who is filled with grace by some entity or cause outside of herself." Now, the verb isn't the present tense, it's the perfect tense. The perfect tense has a lot of connontations. Essentially, it speaks of an action completed way in the past with implications in the present day. In otherwise, at some point in the past Mary was filled with grace, and that action was completed; today, though, she is still filled with grace and that is important, it has implications on what we're talking about, on the message Gabriel brings. So, the word means: "she who was filled with grace at some time in the past, an action which was then completed, and done by a force outside of herself, and she is still filled with grace today and that has important implications for what I'm going to tell you."
Read that paragraph a couple times. I know it's hard to grasp. When it all boils down, the point is that the word indicates that Mary wasn't responsible by anything she did for being filled with grace, that she was filled with grace some time long in the past, a completed time (not having to be done over and over), and that she is still filled with grace, and that fact is important for Gabriel's message. This is the strongest BIBLICAL evidence I've found for the immaculate conception. When I translated that word and found all the Biblical inplications, I became a believer in it at that moment.
Little did my parents know when they had a Baptist minister teach me Biblical Greek in high school that the Greek would one day guide me to the Church...
____________________
"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:35 pm |
|
Racaela
Wow !
I believe that was the best explaination I've ever heard for the IConcept. What a wonderful gift you have of explaining things.
Thank you for sharing
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
Current time is 09:26 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
