 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
mcdave
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Assemblies of God, presby,Anglican |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 01:06 pm |
|
Hello everyone.I have a question. How did some of you who were protestant come to accept praying to Mary. This is a big sticking point for me. Currently, I am Anglican and I have a friend like me who is on the road to Rome, but we both agree that this a problem for us. Also, is something that I have to accept before coming into the Church. Thank you and God's peace. Dave
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 957 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 01:16 pm |
|
Hi, Dave,
I recently answered this in another post:
Developing a relationship with Mary
Edited to add URL.Last edited on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 12:53 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1792 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 02:07 pm |
|
First off, Dave, you should know that your relationship with Mary or any of the saints or angels is not like your relationship with Jesus Christ or God the Father or the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between God and creatures that we of the Catholic faith recognize, even if many Protestants do not think we do. Mary is not a goddess; she is a human being like you and me.
On the other hand, something is at stake here, and it is the Communion of Saints, which we profess in the ancient creeds such as the Apostles’ Creed. The Church is this communion; it acts organically, spanning the “distance” between heaven, purgatory and earth and uniting us as members of a single body, which the body of Christ. The saints in heaven, for instance, are made aware of our earthly needs because they see all things in God, through the beatific vision. In a sense, God shares some of his own knowledge with them through their participation in his glory.
“Praying” does not mean only offering adoration to God. The root meaning of the word is to ask for something. In former times, the word was used of requests made from one human being to another, as you are making here on the forum when you ask for help on this question. Shakespeare’s works are replete with the word “pray” in this sense. And it is in this sense that we “pray” to Mary, the saints and the angels.
For the rest, it is a matter of getting used to the idea and practice of being aware of the angels and the saints, of making use of our “pipeline” to heaven through their intercession, and of their help in obtaining grace and human necessities from our Lord and Maker. It is never “necessary” to seek someone’s intercession; we can always pray directly to God. But if you, in your current Christian life, follow the biblical injunction to have recourse to your earthly friends to pray for you, how is it that you neglect your heavenly friends, who are so much closer to God and whose charity is proven and true? If you believe in the efficacy of the one, how is it that you have no confidence in the efficacy of the other?
David
|
|
|
faithfl1
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 64 |
| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 02:10 pm |
|
mcdave wrote:
Hello everyone.I have a question. How did some of you who were protestant come to accept praying to Mary. This is a big sticking point for me. Currently, I am Anglican and I have a friend like me who is on the road to Rome, but we both agree that this a problem for us. Also, is something that I have to accept before coming into the Church. Thank you and God's peace. Dave
I too struggled at first (I converted almost 20 yrs. ago) Then when it was explained to me that we are not praying TO Mary, we are asking her to intercede on our behalf, the way we would ask our friends or family member's to pray for us, I felt much better. Even though I understood, I still had a hard time praying the Rosary. Finally, while praying and focusing on the mysteries with my whole being, the importance of Mary's role as Jusus' Mother, and our Mother became very clear to me. Now, I love praying the Rosary or just reciting the Hail Mary. It is a very humble yet powerful prayer!!
____________________
Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 02:42 pm |
|
mcdave wrote: Hello everyone.I have a question. How did some of you who were protestant come to accept praying to Mary. This is a big sticking point for me. Currently, I am Anglican and I have a friend like me who is on the road to Rome, but we both agree that this a problem for us. Also, is something that I have to accept before coming into the Church. Thank you and God's peace. Dave
Dave, I am not a convert so I have not struggled with this issue at all, so feel free to ignore what I'm going to say.
Seems that I remember a commandment that says "honor thy father and thy mother". If Jesus was an observant Jew (which he was), wasn't he bound to follow that commandment? Wasn't he bound by Jewish law to honor his mother?
How can I possibly go wrong honoring she who was honored by our Savior? How can I as a believer fail to call her blessed?
No, you do not have to pray to Mary but yes, you MUST honor her. Why? Because our Savior did, and because scripture commands it. You do not need to say a rosary or pray a novena, but you must attend mass, and Mary is honored as the spotless virgin in the mass. And you must accept the Marian doctrines of Mary as Mother of God (because Jesus is God and Mary is his mother) and queen of heaven; you must accept that she was without sin from conception to the end of her life, and you must accept that she was taken bodily into heaven at the end of her natural life. Those are non-negotiable.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Pani Rose
Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 389 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 09:42 pm |
|
There is only one intercessor between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ!
HOWEVER, IT IS SO AWESOME TO BE ABLE TO TUG ON MAMA'S APRON STRINGS AND SAY PICK ME UP, i HURT!
For me, Gen. 3:15 made all the difference in the world.
KJV 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
First Satan can't stand her, because of what God did to him. Look at the definination of 'enmity' Enmity is hatred such as might be felt for an enemy. A synonym is Antagonism is hostility that quickly results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness.
She defends Christ, not that he needed any, but she suffered right along with him at the foot of the cross. Can you imagine standing there watching your child die like that? Luke 2: 34-35 "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."
Seed! his seed, her seed. Who are her seeds? We are brothers and sisters to Christ. She is Jesus mommy! So, she is our mommy too.
Luke 1:41-55
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name.
And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Last edited on Tue Oct 23rd, 2007 09:43 pm by Pani Rose
|
|
|
mcdave
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Assemblies of God, presby,Anglican |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 12:08 pm |
|
Thank you for the replies. And thank you for your patience.
David, Just the other morning as I was saying the Apostles Creed, I realized that I didn't really know what that term meant. Coincidence? Hmm. I would like to read more about that if you have any links. That is something I think would help.
Rick, I wasn't asking that question to be a wise guy. I have known some Catholics in the past who "didn't believe all that Mary stuff." I honestly don't know what all is required by the Church.
I think the thing in my mind right now is Heb. 4:14-16 that says because of Christ our High Priest we may approach the throne of grace with confidence and to receive mercy and grace in our time of need. If I can come through Christ, why do I need anyone else? This is where I'm stuck. Again, how did you who have been down this road reconcile these things? In Christ Dave
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 957 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 12:57 pm |
|
mcdave wrote:I think the thing in my mind right now is Heb. 4:14-16 that says because of Christ our High Priest we may approach the throne of grace with confidence and to receive mercy and grace in our time of need. If I can come through Christ, why do I need anyone else? This is where I'm stuck. Again, how did you who have been down this road reconcile these things?
Dave, the Marian doctrines were the last pieces of the puzzle to fit into place for me as well. Through reason I was able to grasp and believe the teachings about the Immaculate Conception of Mary. How could God Himself be planted in the womb of a sinful creature? One recoils at the thought. Was believing that God's grace was applied toward Mary from the moment of her conception really that much stranger than believing that His grace can be applied at other times during a human lifetime? God's grace came in advance, for her, so that the "Ark" could be a sinless and fitting dwelling place for the developing infant Son of God.
For some mysterious reason, God likes to involve us in His purposes. That's why we pray for each other, and it's why He waits for us to bring our requests to Him. Why does He do that? Why would He delay "doing what needs to be done" just because human creatures have not yet participated with prayer? God can choose to involve whomever He pleases in accomplishing His purposes. He can assign roles. He can wait decades for a particular person to enter my life, become involved, and participate, with Him, in bringing about God's will for me.
The Holy Spirit had a role. Christ the Son had a role. And it pleased the Father to choose obedient, humble Mary for a most glorious participation in His redemptive plans for humankind. In agreeing, she assumed a role that gave Jesus flesh, gave him a brain, gave him a human personality, gave him maternal instruction and emotional, spiritual companionship. Her role took her from Simeon's prophecy all the way to the foot of the Cross (while most disciples cowered in hiding). After the ascension she is with the apostles, waiting for the descent of the Holy Spirit. One can "see" her there, her very presence offering strength and guidance to the fledgling apostles. No doubt she was praying for them then, as she prays for us now.
In the heavenly realms she stands before the throne of God as the Mother of the Church, our Mother. How the heart of God longs to grant her requests, concerning her children!
It pleases God to involve her. It is a mystery.
As for Perpetual Virginity, the Assumption, and the Coronation-- Dave, I believed in Church Authority and believed that Christ has been protecting His Church and the Magisterium from error, in teachings about faith and morals, for two thousand years. Though my reason could not help me with these three doctrines, I made an act of the will to leap up, in faith, into the arms of Mother Church, trusting her to know far better than I about the worthiness of these teachings.
Last edited on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 12:54 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
faithfl1
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 64 |
| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 01:44 pm |
|
faithfl1 wrote: mcdave wrote:
Hello everyone.I have a question. How did some of you who were protestant come to accept praying to Mary. This is a big sticking point for me. Currently, I am Anglican and I have a friend like me who is on the road to Rome, but we both agree that this a problem for us. Also, is something that I have to accept before coming into the Church. Thank you and God's peace. Dave I think the thing in my mind right now is Heb. 4:14-16 that says because of Christ our High Priest we may approach the throne of grace with confidence and to receive mercy and grace in our time of need. If I can come through Christ, why do I need anyone else? This is where I'm stuck. Again, how did you who have been down this road reconcile these things? In Christ Dave
I too struggled at first (I converted almost 20 yrs. ago) Then when it was explained to me that we are not praying TO Mary, we are asking her to intercede on our behalf, the way we would ask our friends or family member's to pray for us, I felt much better. Even though I understood, I still had a hard time praying the Rosary. Finally, while praying and focusing on the mysteries with my whole being, the importance of Mary's role as Jusus' Mother, and our Mother became very clear to me. Now, I love praying the Rosary or just reciting the Hail Mary. It is a very humble yet powerful prayer!!
We do not deny that Jesus is the High Priest, as it is stated in the scripture that you mention.
Maybe this will help: If the link doesn't work, then just highlight it, copy and paste in your address box. It explains how we respect and honor Mary - We do not worship her. We only worship God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
EDITOR'S NOTE: On Oct. 16, 2002, Pope John Paul II issued the apostolic letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae (On the Most Holy Rosary), known chiefly for its introduction of the Luminous Mysteries. The complete text of Rosarium Virginis Mariae can be found at the Vatican Web site, http://www.vatican.va. Part 2 of Bishop Wuerl's commentary on this topic will appear in January 2005.
http://www.kofc.org/un/publications/columbia/detail.cfm?id=4196#4
____________________
Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1792 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 03:50 pm |
|
mcdave wrote:David, Just the other morning as I was saying the Apostles Creed, I realized that I didn't really know what that term [Communion of Saints] meant. Coincidence? Hmm. I would like to read more about that if you have any links. That is something I think would help.
Here is one reference.
Here is another.
Rick, I wasn't asking that question to be a wise guy. I have known some Catholics in the past who "didn't believe all that Mary stuff." I honestly don't know what all is required by the Church.
We always assume that the reader does not know these things. As you say, even some Catholics are not up to speed on them. That’s why Rick laid out what is required and what is not. Sorry if his tone seemed a little strident. It was only meant to be instructive.
I think the thing in my mind right now is Heb. 4:14-16 that says because of Christ our High Priest we may approach the throne of grace with confidence and to receive mercy and grace in our time of need. If I can come through Christ, why do I need anyone else? This is where I'm stuck. Again, how did you who have been down this road reconcile these things?
This is what the last paragraph of my previous post was about. To explain it another way: Yes, we believe that Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man. Nevertheless, just as God the Father uses secondary causality throughout creation (object A, because of its motion and proximity to object B, causes object B to move, etc.), so Christ makes use of his own body to provide some of the links in his mediation. Now the Church is his body, and we Christians are the members of that body (1 Corinthians 12:27; Colossians 1:18, 24; Ephesians 1:22–23 and many other biblical texts). Therefore, it is not unseemly to accept that Christ mediates by way of his brethren, who are members of his body. In this way, if I pray for your salvation, my prayer is effective before God as if Christ personally made that prayer. The prayer of the saints and angels in heaven, including Mary, is simply a corollary of this, by way of the communion of saints.
Blessings
David
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 05:24 pm |
|
mcdave wrote: Rick, I wasn't asking that question to be a wise guy.
I didn't think you were, and I'm sorry if my tone indicated otherwise. I was trying to present the required beliefs as concisely as possible; to break it down to the "bare bones" if you will.
I have known some Catholics in the past who "didn't believe all that Mary stuff." I honestly don't know what all is required by the Church.
Which is why I tried to spell it out plainly and simply. But it is also extremely important to remember that every Marian doctrine says something about Jesus, not Mary. Like the apostles and the saints, we honor Mary not because of anything about herself, but because of her connection to her Son. Through her, we honor him. "To Jesus through Mary."
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
mrsbmoo
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 273 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 06:31 pm |
|
Bringing this down from the theological heights, I hadn't had any interest in Mary before becoming Catholic and didn't really feel a need to even have a relationship with her. So this has developed rather slowly for me. I love my mother and get along with her well enough, but being human and wanting what she thinks is best for me, she tends to be rather critical of me. I have never been thin enough to suit her even when I weighed 115 pounds, I am showing weakness of character to take anti-anxiety medicine, I am not mean enough to my ex-husband, you get the idea. The idea that I could have a mother who loved me and was supportive of me without criticizing me has really grown on me. Other than the rosary I am not big on formal prayers to Mary(or other saints for that matter), I tend to just talk to her like I would if she were there with me in body, sort of like an older mentor. We have some things in common. We both are moms, we both are wives, we both are women. I talk to her about worrying over my kids, not understanding my husband(men are surely aliens), and how exhausting new babies are.
I think it is the word "pray" that we converts get hung up on not that we don't want to get to know the saints. I usually refer to it as "talking" or "consulting". When my husband tells me about issues at work, I often tell him I will get "his team" on it. It is how I refer to the group of saints with whom I ask to intercede about his work. To my amazement there is even a patron saint of Box makers.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
|
|
|
graceknowledgement
Member
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24th, 2007 11:43 pm |
|
This post is somewhat about Mary, but it's more. Sorry, I'm venting.
I have a lot of difficulty with all this. I've read a lot and researched. I've read a few books with extensive quotes from John Paul II's works regarding Mary. I understand the theological concepts involved, but I don't buy it. I can't become Catholic if I don't buy it. One person in an article I read suggested praying to Mary for 6 weeks--I think it was for my eyes to be opened, a revelation of sorts. I don't feel comfortable doing that. It reminds me too much of people who have told me that they focused on receiving the gift of speaking in tongues before they finally did. (I never have. "Do ALL speak in tongues?"-The Apostle Paul, inferring the answer is, "No.")
I really haven't bought into anything yet, not really- Mary, the communion of saints, the Mass, transubstantiation. I have considered things intellectually, and I have agreed they might be possible, but there are so many other roadblocks, especially with Mary. Intellectualism may have brought me so far, but I need more than that. I've been bringing my wife and my kids to Mass for months now and after hearing this last week's podcast on The Journey Home and Sunday Night Live I wonder what Mass and the Catholic Community would be like in another country or context. I like the parish we're going to most of all out of the ones we've tried, but it's still American Catholic. I'm having a lot of difficulty focusing on God at Mass.
Sorry, I'm lamenting here.
I've read the stuff that says Mary is like a mother to us. I have a wonderful mother, so I have no psychological issues with mothers. However, if she was sinless, I think instead of understanding us more she would be more like someone on a previous post here mentioned--more like mad at us for hurting Jesus, her son, the way a protective mother would be. However, that seems not right in the light that Mary is a creature who is redeemed in the very same fashion we are, only ahead of schedule. We are redeemed--yet we are called to love others, not be mad at them.
Jesus came into a sin filled world to die for us, at the Father's bidding. Why could he not be born of a virgin who is redeemed just as we are redeemed, a virgin who was in relationship with her God?
I know I will get answers, and I want to read them, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get what I've already read. I'm discouraged because I want this to be right, but I'm not sure I can be convinced.
I've tried "believing" rather than "seeing", but I can only do that to a point that I don't feel hypocritical or false.
Thanks for listening.Last edited on Wed Oct 24th, 2007 11:48 pm by graceknowledgement
|
|
|
graceknowledgement
Member
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 12:00 am |
|
| You know what? I think I was wrong about the article saying to pray to Mary. I think it said pray to Jesus ABOUT Mary. I think I'll do that.
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1792 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 12:44 am |
|
graceknowledgement wrote:Jesus came into a sin filled world to die for us, at the Father's bidding. Why could he not be born of a virgin who is redeemed just as we are redeemed, a virgin who was in relationship with her God?
Isn’t this what we are preaching? Somehow I think there’s a disconnect here. You assume that because Mary is someone special with us she has to be “different.” Not so. She’s special because she’s like us, not because she’s not like us.
The Son of God became like us in all things save sin. His mother is totally configured in the same way: like us in all things save sin — because she has been redeemed just as we have. The only difference is when God’s salvation became effective with her. This is not her doing, it’s God’s. And it has to do with her Son, not directly herself, that God did this.
I know I will get answers, and I want to read them, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get what I've already read. I'm discouraged because I want this to be right, but I'm not sure I can be convinced.
Peter, I’m going to recommend something to you. I’m going to suggest that you go to an Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox website and investigate their beliefs regarding Mary. Their beliefs are the same as ours, but they are worded differently and they use different concepts to express their theology. Maybe it will trigger a new understanding for you.
You see, I think your problem is that you are still trying to understand Mary from a Protestant point of view, utilizing Protestant modes of thinking and theological concepts. And these don’t work in the Catholic world. Give it a try and let us know what you see.
David
|
|
|
faithfl1
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 64 |
| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 01:37 pm |
|
here is another link to help understand what we believe about Mary:
Click here
Edited to shorten link
Last edited on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 01:42 pm by
____________________
Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
|
|
|
mcdave
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Assemblies of God, presby,Anglican |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 12:18 pm |
|
Rick to be honest, I was more worried about my tone. My bad. I appreciate answers that are short and sweet.
David, thanks for the links. It will take me some time to read them through. Also, you made the comment, who are so much closer to God and whose charity is proven and true? Could you elaborate a bit on that?
Intercessor, no, I'm not ready yet to join. I first have to get over some of the biggest obstacles in my mind first. This is part of the process for me. I also want to thank you and the others for links and thoughts that you have shared so far. Dave
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1792 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 03:34 pm |
|
mcdave wrote:You made the comment, “Who are so much closer to God and whose charity is proven and true?” Could you elaborate a bit on that?
Certainly, Dave. We’re speaking of the angels and those Christians who have preceded us into heaven. We get to heaven by means of our charity (witness what Christ says in to the good and the evil assembled at the judgment in Matthew 25), and heaven is the eternal fruition of charity. Yes, we need to have faith so we can learn to develop our charity. However, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, faith will cease, but charity continues for all eternity in heaven.
By being themselves perfected in charity (for we know that nothing imperfect can enter heaven; see Revelation 21:27), they are so close to God that they have the vision of glory, which we call the beatific vision. Their possession of the divine charity is manifested in their concern for others; see 1 John 4:7–12. Those who are in heaven want nothing more than to help us who are still living our earthly life to attain to the same fruition that they enjoy with God, who is literally the definition of charity.
David
|
|
|
Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 957 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 10:05 pm |
|
Intercessor, no, I'm not ready yet to join. I first have to get over some of the biggest obstacles in my mind first. This is part of the process for me. I also want to thank you and the others for links and thoughts that you have shared so far. Dave
Dave, my journey took two years, and I had some unusual advantages. As a retired widow, I had all the time I needed to watch EWTN, surf the Internet, read books, attend Mass and Holy Hour, ponder matters, and pray. I also had the advantage of having access, through extended family, to two young priests. They spent hours and hours with me during that two year period of searching and agonizing.
It was not an easy journey even though I had those advantages, especially in the final weeks. Several times I was prostrate on my living room floor and begging God for the mercy of making His will very clear to me. I was willing to do whatever He told me to do. I just had a hard time believing He was seriously asking me (at my age and with my background) to become a Catholic.
Oswald Chambers says we are to become like broken bread and poured-out wine, allowing others to find strength and nourishment in our lives. Now, as a Catholic who attends daily Mass and regular Adoration, I feast on the true Broken Bread and Poured-out Wine.
I will be praying for you, Dave. Last edited on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 04:01 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27th, 2007 11:02 am |
|
mcdave wrote: How did some of you who were protestant come to accept praying to Mary. This is a big sticking point for me. Currently, I am Anglican
Interestingly, a statement was released this week by an Anglican-Catholic study group meeting in Washington. You'll find the statement they released here. I would like to highlight a few excerpts, the first from the introductory comments:3. The distinction between the faith of the Church, on the one hand, and private revelations and individual devotions, on the other hand, both emphasizes the importance of common understandings and recognizes the continued diversity of devotional practice. We concur with Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ (45-49, 66) that the liturgies of our two traditions demonstrate the meaning and significance that devotion to Mary has in each of our churches.
[Emphasis added.]
Regarding the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception:7. … With regard to the definition of the Immaculate Conception (MGHC 59), the assertion that Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, preserved immune from all stain of original sin means that she never contracted the inherited guilt of original sin, and implies that she began her human existence in the state of supernatural grace. On the other hand, as a member of the human race she shared the universal need of redemption. Her redemption was accomplished, through a singular privilege of grace, by being preserved from contracting the guilt of original sin, rather than by being justified during her lifetime. Her immunity from original sin was due to the merits of Jesus Christ, the sole Redeemer of all humankind. The gift of supernatural grace with which she was endowed was essentially the same as ours, the difference being that she never lacked what we receive in baptism.
8. Anglicans may be helped by the emphasis in Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ on grace and egalitarianism. Mary is elected from all time by a sheer act of grace; her response is exemplary, and, perhaps most important, the event centers on Christ, not Mary (MGHC 54, 56). Sensitive to Anglicanism’s egalitarian thrust, we are reminded again and again that Mary’s role is as much exemplary as it is unique: “The holiness which is our end in Christ (cf. 1 John 3:2-3) was seen, by unmerited grace, in Mary, who is the prototype of the hope of grace for humankind as a whole” (MGHCMGHC 64).
[Emphasis added.]
Regarding the dogma of the Assumption: 10. The care taken to present the Assumption as a theological affirmation rather than an assertion about her physical death (MGHC 58, note 10) addresses Anglican concerns lest Mary’s exaltation be presented as a resurrection event paralleling Christ’s own. … Like the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the doctrine of the Assumption is grounded in Mary’s election as the Mother of God. … To argue that Mary here represents the Church simply proves the point: she represents us in our collective glorification as the Church in a way that is analogous to Christ’s representing us as its head.
11. Another approach, consistent with the Anglican theological emphasis on the Incarnation, would be to ground the significance of the Assumption in Mary’s ongoing relationship with Jesus as his mother. … Put in this way, it matters that Mary’s relation to Jesus as Theotókos is eternal, because that means that the Incarnation is irrevocable, continuously in effect, and part of our common destiny.
[Emphasis added.]
And from the conclusion: 13. ... The doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption can be understood to be consonant with the teaching of Scripture and our common Christian traditions.
[Emphasis added.]
So Anglicans in particular may find common ground on the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and Anglican bishops participating in this ecumenical meeting acknowlege the common honor of Mary as Theotokos, the Mother of God, and worthy of singular honor as part of our separate and common liturgical traditions.
The original statement, "Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ" (approved in 2004 in Seattle) can be found on the official web site of the Anglican Communion, as well as at the Vatican web site.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Pani Rose
Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 389 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27th, 2007 03:53 pm |
|
Maybe offering the Most Holy Theotokos from an Eastern perspective, might help.
Mary in Byzantine Liturgy
In the various Christian traditions Marian doctrine and devotion take shape in manifold and diverse ways. Since the Second Vatican Council the Church has striven to promote a new and more careful study of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, in the mystery of Christ and of the Church; to encourage theological faculties in the pursuit of knowledge, research, and piety with regard to Mary of Nazareth. The Mother of the Lord is understood as a "datum of revelation" and a "maternal presence" always operative in the life of the Church. 1
The history of theological reflection witnesses to the Church's faith and attention regarding the Virgin Mary and her mission in the history of salvation. Especially is this evident in the Western Church.2
The deeper understanding of the mystery of the Theotokos, the more profound is the understanding of the mystery of Christ, of the Church, and of the vocation of humanity. Concerning Mary, everything is relative to Christ; only in the mystery of Christ is her mystery fully clear. Conversely it may generally be said that knowing Mary illuminates our appreciation of the mystery of Christ and of the Church.3
To the degree in which the mystery of the Church is understood, the mystery of Mary is apparent. Knowing Mary, the Church recognizes its origins, its mission of grace, its destiny to glory, and the pilgrimage of faith which guides it.4
The Virgin Mary is like a mirror reflecting the mighty works of God, which theology has the task of illustrating. The importance of Mariological reflection derives from the importance of Christology, from the value of ecclesiology and pneumatology, from the meaning of Christian anthropology, and from eschatology, and is an integral part of them.5
The veneration of Mary, when properly understood, permeates the entire life of the Church; it is a dimension of dogma and of piety, of Christology and of eccl | | |
