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Daffodil
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| First Name: | Daffodil | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | not attending church, New Age, Episcopalian, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 12:42 pm |
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| I have some questions, and doubts, that have popped up recently. I pray to God directly often, to try to foster a relationship with Him, among other things. According to Catholic understanding, even when I do not ask a Saint to interceed, is Mary interceeding anyways? Do all of my prayers to God go through her, and is this what is meant by the term Mediatrix?
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My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior....
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faithfl1
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| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 01:28 pm |
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I am absolutely no expert. But just mho. Even though we honor Mary, Jesus is the only Mediator. We certainly ask Mary and the Saint's for their intercession, but our specific prayer's do not go "through" Mary before God hear's them. You can speak to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit through our thoughts and actions 24/7. If, or I should say when, Mary hears our prayers She is constantly interceding on our behalf. This website (the Catholic Catechism etc.) may help:
Click Here
Edited to shorten link
Last edited on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 05:04 pm by
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Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 03:13 pm |
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Daffodil wrote:Even when I do not ask a Saint to intercede, is Mary interceding anyway?
The short answer is Yes, although there are a few qualifications for one to understand correctly.
I just finished reading a theology book on Mary, and this is one of the points it made. As Sharon says, God would hear our prayers anyway just because he is God. However, he wishes that everything be done through his Son. We Christians, including Mary and all the saints in heaven, are the body of that Son. So for Mary or the saints to act as intercessors, advocates or intermediaries is quite natural. It is a function of the charity that the entire body of Christ shares. Heaven runs on charity.
This works in very much the same way as when you pray directly to God, and some of your friends and relatives are, unknown to you, praying for your intention as well.
David
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Daffodil
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 03:59 pm |
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I've done some online research into what is meant by Mediatrix, and I think it means that all graces from God come through Mary to us? I also have found references to the Body of Christ, with Mary being the neck while Jesus is the head.
This is very confusing in light of the belief that prayer does not pass through Mary in order to reach God. Am I taking this metaphor too far? How far is it to be taken?
____________________
My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior....
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faithfl1
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| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 09:24 pm |
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| I don't know if you checked out the other link that I provided in my last post or not, but here is another if you would like to read more on the subject: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
____________________
Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
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Daffodil
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 10:05 pm |
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faithfl1 wrote: I don't know if you checked out the other link that I provided in my last post or not, but here is another if you would like to read more on the subject: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
Actually, that is the article that brought on my last post. It does not make clear whether or not it is dogma that all graces flow through Mary or not, and it does not make clear the extent of the metaphor of the body, neck and head. At least, as much as I could read without it going over my head. Thank you for helping me. 
____________________
My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior....
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 11:06 pm |
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Daffodil wrote:
The article… does not make clear whether or not it is dogma that all graces flow through Mary or not, and it does not make clear the extent of the metaphor of the body, neck and head.
That Mary is the mediatrix of all graces is a doctrine of the Church, but it has not been formalized as dogma. (Dogma is the highest level of authority in doctrine, formally pronounced as such either by an ecumenical council or by the pope.) The author of the linked document stated this very clearly and also provided the theological basis for it being a tenable and binding doctrine.
The language which speaks of the head, neck and body is traditional, having come down to us from St. Bernard of Clairvaux in the 12th century. I like to think of it as more of an illustration than a metaphor, because Christ as head of his body, the Church, is biblical, and it has a specific and concrete meaning in Catholic doctrine and theology.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 11:13 pm |
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Daffodil wrote: It does not make clear whether or not it is dogma that all graces flow through Mary or not, and it does not make clear the extent of the metaphor of the body, neck and head. At least, as much as I could read without it going over my head.
Let me phrase it to you in a different way.
All graces came into the world through the physical person of Jesus.
Jesus came into the world through the physical person of Mary.
Therefore, if A=B and B=C, A=C.
All graces came into the world through the physical person of Mary.
This does not mean Mary hands out grace any more than a soap bottle hands out the soap. A waiter brings food to the table that you have ordered and the chef has prepared. The waiter did not make the food, choose the food, or prepare the food. The waiter only delivers the food. However, the waiter's role is vital. It is essential in a restaurant where you are served. If you don't want to be waited on, go to a buffet.
God chose to make the dispensation of grace a "full service restaurant" and not a buffet. And since, in the plan of salvation chosen by God, Mary played a vital role, she plays an equally vital role in our salvation. Note that this role is not due to any action on her part except her unconditional "yes". Her role in our salvation is described in the first line of the prayer "Magnificat": "My soul magnifies the Lord".
Scripture records few passages in which Mary speaks. First, she tells the Archangel Gabriel that she will become the mother of her Lord (a common term in the Old Testament used to refer to God); second, she announces her role in salvation to her cousin Elizabeth ("My soul magnifies the Lord...") and explains how she will be honored ("All generations will call me blessed"), and third, she tells us all to "do whatever he tells you".
Mary was the first to teach the human Jesus the scriptures. She gave him the gift of humanity. She taught him how to love as we humans love. And she was the first to hear the message of Jesus. She heard it first and longest. She shared his grief when Joseph died. Like every mother of every child who ever lived, she taught him how to be human. He was literally of the same physical substance as she. Jesus had her DNA. He would almost have been her clone! All of his chromosomes would have come from her, and non-scriptural writings (that may or may not be reliable) tell us that he bore a striking resemblance to her. So to look at Mary would have been looking at Jesus. She was his perfect disciple, she guided his formation and his humanity, she held him when he cried and she leaned on him when she cried.
And what message does she give us? "I am the handmaid of the Lord" … "Be it done unto me according to his will" … "My soul magnifies the Lord" …"Do whatever he tells you". The entire reason for her existence, by her own choice, is to lead us to her Son.
Did she need a redeemer? Absolutely. But unlike the rest of us, she was kept from falling into the pit of sin rather than pulled out of it. She is still saved by Jesus.
And how did Jesus respond? "He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart" (Luke 2:51).
He was obedient to them. Jesus, the Savior, the Word of God, was obedient to Mary and Joseph. Why? Because Mary gave him humanity. She gave him life. And Joseph, as the husband of Mary, was his father. Didn't God say, "Honor your father and your mother"? Jesus honored Mary and Joseph. Even though he was God, he humbled himself to share in our humanity.
So if Jesus, the font of all grace, came to us through Mary; if Mary is the source of the physical body of the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, isn't Mary the source of that Grace through the singular appoinment of God?
A soldier on the battlefield cannot fight without weapons and ammunition. He cannot survive without food and water. He needs support personnel to make him successful. In a way, you can say that success on the battlefield depends on the guy who drives the supply truck. He doesn't fight, but the battle cannot proceed without him.
A quarterback can't throw a pass unless the offensive line blocks the defense. A running back depends on the creation of that hole in the line to break the 25 yard run.
Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces in the way that an offensive tackle is the mediator of the running back's gain, or the blocker is the mediator of the quarterback's spectacular pass. By her free choice, according to the plan designed by God, and with the willing cooperation of the Word of God made flesh in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit, all graces come to us through her. And without her, grace would not have entered the world because that is the way God desired to bring about our salvation.
She is only the vessel. Like the Ark of the Covenant carried the tablets and the manna, Mary carried the Lamb of God. She is the ultimate Holy Grail. Not only did she contain the Precious Body and Blood of our Savior, she gave it its existance in human form. Without her, there would be no Lamb of God by God's loving choice.
And that's important to remember. Like Noah and Abraham and Moses and David and Solomon and all the kings and prophets, the honor and glory goes to God. All are but vessels carring God's word. The diffference is that Mary carried God.
And since she is the most spectacular vessel ever imagined in the mind of God, she deserves a singular honor from both God and man.
And so we call her our Blessed Mother, and honor her as the Mother of God. We celebrate her as the pure vessel made worthy by the singular grace of God to not only carry the sacrificial Lamb of God. but to give him her humanity, to nuture him at her breast, to hold him in her lap, to teach him at her feet, to feed him at her table, to travel with him in his ministry, and to suffer with him on his cross, to cradle his dead body, and to rejoice with his friends at his resurrection.
And her response to us is "do whatever he tells you" because "my soul magnifies the Lord."
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Daffodil
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Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 12:26 am |
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The author of the linked document stated this very clearly and also provided the theological basis for it being a tenable and binding doctrine.
Maybe it was clear to you, but if it had been clear to me then I would not have asked.  Some of the article was over my head (statements directly from the catechism read like legal text to me), thus I asked for clarification. It was not clear to me if the author was stating their personal opinion or a dogma of the Church. (What does tenable mean in this instance?)
Thanks David about the body/neck/head clarification--I guess I was overthinking that one. 
Thank you Rick for the explanation. I will try to think on that and see if the pieces start to slide into place. It usually takes a while for the intellect to catch up with the heart with things relating to Mary or merits. Saying the Rosary makes it all feel right, but I don't understand why. Hopefully it will all make sense soon!
____________________
My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior....
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 12:58 am |
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What does tenable mean in this instance?
The definition of “tenable” is: capable of being held, maintained or defended; based on sound reasoning or evidence. Synonyms include: reasonable, admissible, workable, trustworthy, defensible. (Sources: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English; WordNet; and Moby Thesaurus II, all of which are available online.)
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Sun Oct 28th, 2007 12:15 am |
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God's peace. The Cajun said: "Did she need a redeemer? Absolutely. But unlike the rest of us, she was kept from falling into the pit of sin rather than pulled out of it. She is still saved by Jesus."
I love this--and I think it exposes a problem that Protestants, who often emphasize decisional regeneration, have with Mary's being the Immaculate Conception. The idea that Mary could be saved from sin by an act of grace before she was even born--before she could make a decision about it--is repugnant to most Evangelicals for the same reason that baptismal regeneration is! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Oct 28th, 2007 11:35 am |
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Excellent point, Br. Carlo. That’s one I will have to file under Major Objections to Mary even though it’s not immediately evident. The question then arises: How do we answer it?
Perhaps part of the answer can be seen in the fact that the angel Gabriel came to seek her acceptance to be the mother of the Redeemer. How could Mary answer affirmatively if she did not already possess the virtue of faith and were not already in the state of grace? And if she were already in the state of grace, when and how did this grace come to her?
Then this could in turn be used to show that the altar call and the sinner’s prayer are only the culmination of a history of grace, and that the new Christian’s conversion really started long ago with a preliminary gift of grace that allowed him to come to a decision. Where, then, does the Evangelical’s claim to instantaneous conversion fit in?
David
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