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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 08:58 pm |
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Today two cradle Catholics asked me (a new Catholic) to explain why some translations (NAB, in particular) have Gabriel addressing Mary as "favored one" rather than as "full of grace." A third lady joined the conversation and was distressed to learn that the words from our famous prayer are not in these translations.
I told them I'd see what I could find in my Navarre footnotes when I got home.
The Navarre (using RSV) places "full of grace" in the text but lists "favoured one" in the footnotes.
Is there already a thread on the forum answering their concern?
This was a curious turn of events. I, steadfast in my faith in Church Authority, was resting comfortably in Mary's being full of grace whether Luke mentioned it or not. The cradle Catholics were uneasy because they wanted the modern respected translations (NAB, especially) to contain "full of grace."Last edited on Sun Nov 18th, 2007 09:01 pm by Intercessor
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"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 10:01 pm |
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Look, as a Latin major and Greek minor in college (I'm a junior right now), I can explain what it means.
The word literally means "she who was at some time in the distant past filled completely with grace through no power of her own, and this has implications in the present." The issue is that the word "grace" is the same as "favor" - it can be translated either way. Some translations use the word favor instead. If they want to do that, though, they should say "by favor are we saved" instead of "by grace are we saved" as the same root is used either place.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 10:11 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote:
Look, as a Latin major and Greek minor in college (I'm a junior right now), I can explain what it means.
The word literally means "she who was at some time in the distant past filled completely with grace through no power of her own, and this has implications in the present." The issue is that the word "grace" is the same as "favor" - it can be translated either way. Some translations use the word favor instead. If they want to do that, though, they should say "by favor are we saved" instead of "by grace are we saved" as the same root is used either place.
Wow! A Latin major and a Greek minor! Tell me you also are a Hebrew scholar and I'll adopt you! 
Thanks a bunch.Last edited on Sun Nov 18th, 2007 10:14 pm by Intercessor
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"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 10:50 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: "by favor are we saved"
and we sure appreciate the favor
Regards Dave
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Racaela Fultz
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| Location: | Indiana USA |
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| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 19th, 2007 12:06 am |
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Um, actually, Becky, I actually am a Hebrew scholar too. It's sure hard, but it's super cool. Reading the Bible in the original - it can't be beat. So, um, do I have a new mom?
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Nov 19th, 2007 12:33 am |
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Racaela Fultz wrote:
Um, actually, Becky, I actually am a Hebrew scholar too. It's sure hard, but it's super cool. Reading the Bible in the original - it can't be beat. So, um, do I have a new mom?
Honey, what color should I paint your new bedroom walls? 
Say, you don't also happen to play the harp, do you?
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"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Mon Nov 19th, 2007 01:49 am |
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I play the violin. And I sing. And I sew and knit and cross-stitch and quilt. And I can care for small children and cook (I can cook anything) and garden and keep house.
And for walls, I like yellow.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Intercessor
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Posted: Mon Nov 19th, 2007 02:02 am |
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Racaela,
There are already 568 persons signed up. The caravan will arrive in Indiana Monday evening. You may have your pick of the prospective moms, dads, husbands, new best friends. Everybody wants you, my dear. Everybody!
You'll know we're almost there when you hear CajunRick and Ali singing "Mama Sang Bass; Daddy Sang Tenor" over the loud speaker system.
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Ali
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Nov 19th, 2007 06:48 am |
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Intercessor wrote:
You'll know we're almost there when you hear CajunRick and Ali singing "Mama Sang Bass; Daddy Sang Tenor" over the loud speaker system.
Uhhh, you've never heard me sing, have you? You know it's bad when your six year old runs away when you start singing Sunshine with his ears covered yelling "No singing, Mama!"
ROFLOL!!!
But yeah, other than that I'm good with joining the caravan  BTW, I prefer blue for my walls.
Ali
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 19th, 2007 08:40 am |
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Intercessor wrote: You'll know we're almost there when you hear CajunRick and Ali singing "Mama Sang Bass; Daddy Sang Tenor" over the loud speaker system.
That'll be a harder ticket to find than a Hannah Montana concert! And I don't do tenor!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2007 01:54 pm |
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I have two papers posted, which delve into some of these issues with Luke 1:28, if you're interested:
Luke 1:28 (Full of Grace) and the Immaculate Conception: Linguistic and Exegetical Considerations
Dialogue on the Exegesis of Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace"), and the Immaculate Conception
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2007 03:49 pm |
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Wow, Dave! I made it through the first article. If you gave a test, I would pass but would not make an A. I got pretty far into the dialogue before having to quit--cataract surgery a week ago and no new glasses yet.
Thanks so much for sharing these. One of the gentlemen who approached me about the favored one/full of grace question will be delighted to see this first article. It's the sort of treatment he wanted, I think.
You're a fearless guy, Dave. (see Dialogue) In fact, that's what I like about David and Rick as well. All three of you gentlemen are fearless when it comes to proclaiming Truth. I appreciate all three of you and remember you in my prayers.Last edited on Wed Nov 21st, 2007 03:50 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2007 04:26 pm |
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You're very kind, Becky. Bless you! I need all the prayers I can get, so thanks very much.
I think it is fascinating to look into the linguistic and exegetical aspects of Luke 1:28. I've always said that the Bible is seen to have much more depth when one gets into very deep, spiritually advanced Catholic waters.
None of the sort of things that I dealt with in that paper would have ever crossed my mind as a Protestant. I remember in 1990 when I was discussing and pondering Catholicism, how awesome the Marian doctrines were, as I learned more about them. I never really struggled with them as many converts do (my big bugaboo was papal infallibility). I found them very deep, edifying, fascinating, Christ-centered, scriptural, and they just rang true (thanks to two able Catholics who properly explained them to me).
It remains one of my favorite areas of theology and apologetics. I love Our Lady and anything I can learn about her! How spiritually impoverished is the Christian who hardly ever thinks of the Blessed Virgin except when gazing at a manger scene at Christmastime or when at an art museum.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2007 04:53 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote:
I remember in 1990 when I was discussing and pondering Catholicism, how awesome the Marian doctrines were, as I learned more about them. I never really struggled with them as many converts do (my big bugaboo was papal infallibility). I found them very deep, edifying, fascinating, Christ-centered, scriptural, and they just rang true (thanks to two able Catholics who properly explained them to me).
It remains one of my favorite areas of theology and apologetics. I love Our Lady and anything I can learn about her! How spiritually impoverished is the Christian who hardly ever thinks of the Blessed Virgin except when gazing at a manger scene at Christmastime or when at an art museum.
Isn't it precious how the Holy Spirit deals with each of us so that we are able to follow His leadership into the Church? I was able to accept the Marian doctrines (after much resistance) because so much grace was given me in the areas of Church Authority, Sacred Tradition, and the Pope and Magisterium. I was so rock solid (again, through grace) on those, that I could take on faith the Marian doctrines and wait for them to become a part of my understanding.
More and more, I find myself looking to Mary as the example. Right now, I am particularly focused on how she had to be emptied of/detached from other things in order to be full of grace. Ralph Martin, in his audio CDs on St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, says we have to give up some things/persons in order to create room for the grace we seek. So many deep mysteries to ponder and often they lead one back to Mary.
Another example: this morning I was reading from Imitation of Christ.
On the subject of obedience and humility--Mary sets the example of obedience and humility with her assent to God's plan, but then Mary becomes the one (along with Joseph) to whom God Himself humbly submits. Just amazing! There is much to be learned in those relationships of obedience, humility, authority, and submission.Last edited on Wed Nov 21st, 2007 11:25 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 12:31 pm |
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In the East we just celebrated the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple. Fr. Frank's homily on the subject was about it being our 'entrance into the temple'. He went back into Ann & Joachim giving her to God, through what the Church knows from tradation as to her entrance. And drew out in a different way that through her entrance and her yes - we are truly allowed to enter into the Temple of God. Also, reminding us that the word church, actually means temple. I know this is not technical stuff, but it was good
From the ProtoEvandlium of St. James the Apostle:
.... And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran and hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God has blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.
5. And on the following day he brought his offerings, saying in himself: If the Lord God has been rendered gracious to me, the plate on the priest's forehead will make it manifest to me. And Joachim brought his offerings, and observed attentively the priest's plate when he went up to the altar of the Lord, and he saw no sin in himself. And Joachim said: Now I know that the Lord has been gracious unto me, and has remitted all my sins. And he went down from the temple of the Lord justified, and departed to his own house. And her months were fulfilled, and in the ninth month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: What have I brought forth? and she said: A girl. And said Anna: My soul has been magnified this day. And she laid her down. And the days having been fulfilled, Anna was purified, and gave the breast to the child, and called her name Mary.
6. And the child grew strong day by day; and when she was six months old, her mother set her on the ground to try whether she could stand, and she walked seven steps and came into her bosom; and she snatched her up, saying: As the Lord my God lives, you shall not walk on this earth until I bring you into the temple of the Lord. And she made a sanctuary in her bed-chamber, and allowed nothing common or unclean to pass through her. And she called the undefiled daughters of the Hebrews, and they led her astray. And when she was a year old, Joachim made a great feast, and invited the priests, and the scribes, and the elders, and all the people of Israel. And Joachim brought the child to the priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever. And her mother snatched her up, and took her into the sanctuary of her bed-chamber, and gave her the breast. And Anna made a song to the Lord God, saying: I will sing a song to the Lord my God, for He has looked upon me, and has taken away the reproach of mine enemies; and the Lord has given the fruit of His righteousness, singular in its kind, and richly endowed before Him. Who will tell the sons of Rubim that Anna gives suck? Hear, hear, you twelve tribes of Israel, that Anna gives suck. And she laid her to rest in the bed-chamber of her sanctuary, and went out and ministered unto them. And when the supper was ended, they went down rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.
7. And her months were added to the child. And the child was two years old, and Joachim said: Let us take her up to the temple of the Lord, that we may pay the vow that we have vowed, lest perchance the Lord send to us, and our offering be not received. And Anna said: Let us wait for the third year, in order that the child may not seek for father or mother. And Joachim said: So let us wait. And the child was three years old, and Joachim said: Invite the daughters of the Hebrews that are undefiled, and let them take each a lamp, and let them stand with the lamps burning, that the child may not turn back, and her heart be captivated from the temple of the Lord. And they did so until they went up into the temple of the Lord. And the priest received her, and kissed her, and blessed her, saying: The Lord has magnified your name in all generations. In you, on the last of the days, the Lord will manifest His redemption to the sons of Israel. And he set her down upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord God sent grace upon her; and she danced with her feet, and all the house of Israel loved her.
8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel....
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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Posted: Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 02:20 pm |
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Beautiful stuff. Thanks!
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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