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brian
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2007 11:07 pm |
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I stumbled upon a website while looking for something else. I wanted to ask about something I found there. I then read an excellent post on Dave Armstrong's wonderful site dealing with the context of a certain book 'The Glories of Mary.' I just was hoping for some clarification regarding the matter of Mary and omnipotence. Here is the quote.
Richard of St. Laurence; . . . " . . . a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son." . . . Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though, of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only so by grace . . . Mary, then, is called omnipotent in the sense in which it can be understood of a creature who is incapable of a divine attribute. She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever she wills. (pp. 180-182)
Now I found a another Catholic website saying that Mary is not omnipotent. In what sense is she or is she not omnipotent. Because this is a hard word to use for anyone besides God. I see that the quote does indeed clarify that her omnipotence is dependent on grace from God and that it is not a divine attribute like God has, yet it is still difficult to use this term for her. I am wondering if maybe I am free not to use this term regarding her and just say that it is an interpretation offered by some but not exactly dogma.
But how accurate is it and in what sense? For to me the problem lies in defining the term, which I take to mean All powerful. Limitless power. I would think that though Mary's prayers are always offered and answered, that her power is not the same as that of God. The quote seems to argue that a mother would share in all the power of a son, yet because Jesus power is from all eternity and that of being God himself, I wonder how one could ascribe that to Mary?
That she exercises God's power or perfectly obtains all she asks for seems clear enough to me, but I am still curious if we would theologically decalre her omnipotent and how to more thoroughly qualify the statement. Extrmely powerful yes, but it seems difficult to say 'all powerful.'
thanks,
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 12:11 am |
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Fortunately for you, Brian, I studied this very question recently. Everyone in heaven could be styled “omnipotent” in the sense that they obtain whatever they will. They are there because their wills are perfectly conformed to that of God. Obviously, if they want exactly what God wants, their desires will always be granted, even if that desire transcends what is humanly possible, because God is acting on their behalf.
The statement that Mary is not omnipotent is not really contradictory, but equivocal with the previous statement. It refers to the fact that, existentially speaking, all human beings are creatures and are therefore of limited resources. Therefore, omnipotence is materially impossible.
So all you have to do is distinguish between the two definitions of “omnipotent” and everything falls into place. Yes, you are free not to use the term. Although it is used in this accommodated sense by theologians, in particular of Mary, it is not a defined dogma. But in the accommodated sense in which they speak, it is literally true that Mary is eminently all-powerful, for whatever she asks for will in fact be granted just because she will always ask for what God wills to do. She asks on behalf of others because she is utterly charitable and divinized through being perfectly conformed to Christ. And God is charity in person. This is why Mary has received the other prerogatives as well: her immaculate conception, her sinless life, her glorious assumption, and her status not only as mother of God but also as mother of all men.
David
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brian
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 02:15 am |
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Interesting. Would it be safe for me to say that even if the saints and Mary share in some sort of omnipotence that we still would back off from saying they are omnipresent or omniscient?
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 09:39 am |
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Yes, just as we say that no creature has unlimited powers in any respect. In fact, if you will recall, the Catechism says this very thing about Christ’s humanity (CCC 472). On the other hand, those in heaven see everything in the light of God and act only in him. Therefore, in a relative sense, they are present where he is present and see what he sees, just because God wills it.
David
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2007 06:54 pm |
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"Omnipotent" indeed has multiple uses and meanings, as moderator David alluded to. The word literally means "all-powerful" and in the strictest more technical and philosophical usage, means: "ability to do all that is logically possible to do" (God cannot, for example, make a square circle or cause Himself to exist and not exist at the same time, etc.; thus even God does not have absolutely unlimited power) No one has that power except for God.
God can, however, use any of His creatures to perform what He desires to do in His omnipotence, just as God can choose to channel all grace through Mary (and many eminent saints and doctors in the Church have taught that, and it is more entrenched in Catholic dogma than many realize -- though not yet ex cathedra or de fide).
This particular example, that I dealt with in my paper, is explained as being an instance of the second, derivative meaning of the word. God gave Mary power. In no sense does this usage imply that Mary is equal to God or has even divine prerogatives. I provided the biblical rationale for God giving power to His creatures in the paper you refer to (RSV):. . . that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (1 Corinthians 12:9) . . .
we shall live with him by the power of God. (1 Corinthians 13:4)
. . . by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. (Romans 15:13)
that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:5)
. . . my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:4)
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, (Ephesians 3:20)
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. (Ephesians 6:10; cf. Ps 68:35)
who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)
He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations. (Revelation 2:26)
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/does-st-alphonsus-de-liguori-in-glories.html
One can verify the additional, "non-deity" sense in a dictionary:
From: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent (Dictionary.com):Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - om·nip·o·tent    /ɒmˈnɪpətənt/ Online Etymology Dictionary
omnipotent
c.1314, from O.Fr. omnipotent (11c.), from L. omnipotentem (nom. omnipotens) "all-powerful, almighty," from omnis "all" (see omni-) + potenspotentis) "powerful" (see potent). Strictly only of God or a deity; general sense of "having absolute power or authority" is attested from 1598.
Online Etymology Dictionary copyright 2001 Douglas Harper
From: Merriam-Webster Online
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotentMain Entry:1om·nip·o·tent
Pronunciation: \-tənt\ Function:adjective Etymology:Middle English, from
Anglo-French, from Latin omnipotent-, omnipotens, from omni- + potent-, potens potent
Date:14th century
1 often capitalized : almighty 1
2: having virtually unlimited authority or influence <an omnipotent ruler>
3 obsolete : arrant
 
omnipotent /omnipp t’nt/
• adjective having unlimited or very great power.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/omnipotent?view=uk
Etc.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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brian
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Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2007 11:08 pm |
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Another notion I wanted to protect is the idea that God's qualities are eternal and infinite. That our ongoing (and that of Mary or any saint) theosis is one that will never be complete, because with God there is always more. One can never become entirely god like or omniscient because God's knowledge is infinite and uncreated and He has privilege to information that no one will ever on earth or heaven be entirelyable to fathom, but only as much as He makes possible. We will always be learning and growing even in heaven, and never complely full as He is. Am I on the right track here?
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2007 01:37 am |
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brian wrote: Am I on the right track here? Sounds exactly right to me. Well said!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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