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Intercessor Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 03:54 pm |
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I'm not sure whether there is interest in pursuing this thread. In an earlier thread we had begun a conversation which included reference to appearances by deceased loved ones.
Would anyone like to share such an experience? A loved one? An angel?
How do you feel about the advice from St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross that we more or less ignore such visitations?
____________________ "If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Annie Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 04:19 pm |
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My dad and I had an agreement that whichever one of us died first would try to appear to the other if such were possible. When Dad died I had a strong feeling all the next day of his presence. He had told me he was sorry I was living so far away and he never had a chance to see me working in the lab and he wondered what it was like. I first felt him sitting beside me on the train that morning, looking at the beautiful northern California scenery that I had told him about in letters. He hovered around the lab all day as I worked. Other workers there told me they felt a strangeness that day and I told them later about it and they said yes, that's what it felt like, a presence. The next day the presence was gone.
Wishful thinking? Perhaps.
____________________ Annie
Ora et labora
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Intercessor Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 04:32 pm |
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No, I don't think it was wishful thinking, Annie.
A week after I buried my daddy, I was brushing my hair in front of a mirror. It's always a shock to catch the reflection of one's own grief-stricken face. Suddenly I became aware of his presence behind me-- a strong, sweet reassurance that after the ravages of bone cancer, he had found deliverance and joy. When I caught my reflection in the mirror again, I was smiling peacefully.
____________________ "If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 04:38 pm |
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There are some dangers and possible excesses, of course, in these things, but what, e.g., Annie described, is a perfectly possible occurrence. Saints have taught that ghosts could appear. Ghosts are "Catholic" (as Peter Kreeft has argued). But there can be impersonating demons, too: we should always keep in mind. The prophet Samuel appeared to Saul and the Bible states that it was really Samuel. He appeared during a seance, but just because it was a seance couldn't prevent the real person from appearing: 1 Samuel 28:7-20.
I have written about this topic (as on almost every topic!):
Biblical Evidence for Communication From God and Ghosts (?) in Dreams
G.K. Chesterton wrote:We believe an old apple woman when she says she ate an apple; but when she says she saw a ghost, we say 'But she's only an old apple woman.
C.S. Lewis believed that his dead wife Joy appeared to him:It's the quality of last night's experience - not what it proves but what it was - that makes it worth putting down. It was quite incredibly unemotional. Just the impression of her mind momentarily facing my own. Mind, not "soul" as we tend to think of soul. Certainly the reverse of what is called "soulful." Not at all like a rapturous reunion of lovers. Much more like getting a telephone call or a wire from her about some practical arrangement. Not that there was any "message" - just intelligence and attention. No sense of joy or sorrow. No love even, in our ordinary sense. No un-love. I had never in any mood imagined the dead as being so - well, so business-like. Yet there was an extreme and cheerful intimacy. An intimacy that had not passed through the senses or the emotions at all.
. . . A Greek philosopher wouldn't have been surprised at an experience like mine. He would have expected that if anything of us remained after death it would be just that. Up to now this always seemed to me a most arid and chilling idea. The absence of emotion repelled me. But in this contact (whether real or apparent) it didn't do anything of the sort. One didn't need emotion. The intimacy was complete - sharply bracing and restorative too - without it.
. . . Once very near the end I said, "If you can - if it is allowed - come to me when I too am on my death bed." "Allowed!" she said. "Heaven would have a job to hold me; and as for Hell, I'd break it into bits." She knew she was speaking a kind of mythological language, with even an element of comedy in it. There was a twinkle as well as a tear in her eye. But there was no myth and no joke about the will, deeper than any feeling, that flashed through her.
(A Grief Observed, Toronto: Bantam Books edition, 1961, 85-88)
It seems that Lewis himself may also have visited earth after his death. Lewis scholar Gilbert Meilaender writes: "J. B. Phillips [translator of the well-known New Testament paraphrase] thought that Lewis’s spirit had twice appeared to him after Lewis’s death." In his book, The Newborn Christian, Phillips stated that C. S. Lewis appeared to him "large as life and twice as natural" and communicated to him a short message.
Christian writer Sheldon Vanauken wrote of his experience with his dead wife in his book A Severe Mercy. He gives a detailed recounting of an encounter with his wife while sleeping, including communication; what he describes as "a vision dream."
See my paper above for lots more information along these line, including many biblical passages.
My wife Judy has, several times, strongly felt the presence of her father, who died right before Christmas in 2005. I can't say that I have experienced the same with my brother Gerry, who died of leukemia in 1998 (apart from dreams). But if it happened, I wouldn't view it in a negative light, as if it were impossible. Neither the Bible nor the Church requires that level of skepticism. Some is healthy and proper, as long as we don't rule out beforehand what we don't need to rule out, for fear that it is all occult, etc. Those who take that line are, I believe, giving the devil too much due.
Last edited on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 05:01 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Intercessor Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 05:09 pm |
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As a youth my father lost both parents and a sister within a brief period. In his desperation to contact them, he was drawn into the world of the occult. It was a terrifying and dangerous journey. Even in my childhood he began preparing me for his own death and warning me to have nothing to do with Ouija boards, fortune tellers, or seances. He knew too well the dangers of that path.
Dave, I appreciate your very balanced presentation. It is good to be aware of the dangers, but it would also be a shame to deny oneself the comfort that can be found in such experiences.
Last edited on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 11:31 pm by Intercessor
____________________ "If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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mrsbmoo Member

| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 09:06 pm |
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I am so relieved by this thread. I really struggled with the evangelical explanation of: it is either fake or demonic since I just couldn't reconcile it with empirical evidence, particularly of that of friends and family. My husband had an eerie experience while in the Navy, when his sub was passing over the site of a sunken WWII Nazi sub and tapping and voices could be heard speaking in German. He doesn't know what was said but the one guy on the sub who could understand was really traumatized. Could this be a case of hearing those in puragtory still working out their issues 40+ years later?
The protestant understanding is what does not allow you to pray to saints or other dead people. After meeting my husband but not yet converting, I was forever feeling guilty for my "conversations"(no ghosts seen or spoken to) towards my father in law who had died long before I met his son. I had been told not to talk to the dead but it seemed so natural discussing his son with him. Now I don't feel quite so lost from those I know who have died.
____________________ Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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Annie Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 10:12 am |
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| My brother also reports smelling Dad's pipe tobacco and feeling his presence. They didn't get along so that surprised me. Maybe they are making up at this late date.
____________________ Annie
Ora et labora
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 02:06 pm |
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Could this be a case of hearing those in puragtory still working out their issues 40+ years later?
I have no idea, myself. There will always be an aura of mystery connected with these types of experiences, I suspect.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 02:39 pm |
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While I don't believe the deceased in any way can communicate back to us through seances, ouija boards, etc., I definitely believe God permits them to comfort us in our grief, and I certainly believe they pray for us. I could relay hundreds of stories from my time as a hospice chaplain/bereavement coordinator of people who were absolutely certain they had been visited, sometimes by feelings and impressions, other times by dreams and smells, and sometimes by moved pillows and even furniture. One widow moved her husband's pillow off the bed and the next night it was back! She also reported her dog barking exactly the way he did when her husband got home from work, a couple of weeks after his death.
Some of the stories are rather remarkable, such as siblings experiencing a dream where the deceased father told them something they otherwise would not know, and then calling to find out it was true.
So personally, I'm convinced, although I haven't experienced it myself. I know many, many others who have, and who have been greatly comforted by the experience.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbmoo Member

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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 03:27 pm |
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I ordered the Shane Leslie book and it arrived yesterday. It is really good, I stayed up way too late reading it. I was impressed by the references to saints themselves seeing ghosts. My favortie quote so far:
"The Church forbids the dead to be evoked, but there is nothing to forbid the dead making the gesture themselves, since it is clear that only by divine permission could they do so."
____________________ Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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Angie_Rivas1 Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Downey, USA |
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| First Name: | Angie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 03:44 pm |
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Rick, I agree with you that my deceased father cannot come and have any kind of interaction with me. However, since my daddy went home, I strongly believe, or rather I want to believe, that when it is my turn to depart I will have the opportunity to see him briefly. I know this is not based on the bible, but rather a desire of my soul. Is it possible that the Lord can grant me or other people such a desire?
Angie
____________________ "Be not afraid" JPII
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 04:43 pm |
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Angie_Rivas1 wrote:
Rick, I agree with you that my deceased father cannot come and have any kind of interaction with me. However, since my daddy went home, I strongly believe, or rather I want to believe, that when it is my turn to depart I will have the opportunity to see him briefly. I know this is not based on the bible, but rather a desire of my soul. Is it possible that the Lord can grant me or other people such a desire?
Angie
It's certainly possible. Whether it happens in every case, we don't know. I've always assumed that we will see all our loved ones again (those who make it to heaven).
I think a lot of near-death experiences had this element of a loved one escorting a person to the next world.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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