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New Creation
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| Joined: | Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 45 |
| First Name: | Paula | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | wicca 9 yrs, Anglican 5 yrs, RCIA now! |
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 06:49 pm |
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Before I met Christ, for many years I was a very active feminist and I also practised wicca. I was as far into the women's movement as one could get. I really hated Christianity and Judaism (although I had mixed feelings about my hatred for Judaism because I did not hate Jews and did not want to be perceived as an anti-Semite) and felt that those 'patriarchal' religions were the beginning of oppression for women. I read hundreds, maybe thousands of books and prayed to the goddess - rarely the male aspect. I had a real hate on for men. I look back at this time and I know in my heart that if I had known about Mary and the special role she plays in the drama of humanity, things might have gone a lot differently for me. The plight of women around the world, the violence and poverty that they suffer...I all felt it was men asserting their "superior" position. They felt that they had been give this position to them by a male God after the fall of the "matrirachal" religions...etc, etc, insert more feminist dissertation here.
Fast forward many years... about 6 months into my new Christian journey. I still felt that there was a lack of female veneration or even appreciation in the church. In a forum I used to (and still) frequent, there were always questions about male authority over women and all the other questions that come with it.
Anyway, here is an entry from my journal from August 15, 2003, the year I became a Jesus Freak.
"On the Christian forums all night long.
Dear Father God,
PLEASE HELP ME. Oh I was SO ANGRY earlier. The "female pastors" thread, with more people telling me to "be SILENT in church." Does that mean I never speak? Telling me that women cannot be pastors or even Elders! So, what a 20 year old boy has authority over a 60 year old woman?!! AHHHHHHH!!! I'm so upset over this. I'm so very very very upset-SO ANGRY I feel GYPPED ONCE AGAIN- OH what a FLIPPIN' JOY it is to be a WOMAN! (and here I punctuated my sentence so hard, I broke my pen)
SO MAD I just broke my PEN!
I apologized to Lloyd (my then boyfriend and now husband) today for being so hard on him. I told him I spoke to God last night about changing my own heart- he OFFERS UP NOTHING OF HIS OWN! I KNOW LORD THAT IT IS SELFISH - he hugs me and tells me that my breasts feel so good-
IS THAT ALL I AM TO BE?
I asked him why does he love me? First, he can't answer me, then he says "Because you love the Lord and you love me." Well I think to myself- Well honey- there are a LOT of chicks out there who love the Lord and I'm sure they could love YOU- so is THIS the only reason you love me? I mean, isn't there anything intrinsically SPECIAL about me or are you just looking for a baby making machine? I AM SO AFRAID THAT I AM NOT GOING TO BE VALUED- I AM SO NOT READY TO BE MARRIED OR EVEN PLAN ON IT.
WE DO NOT COMMUNICATE.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
I feel like this a one REALLY MEAN TRICK TO PLAY GOD-
WHERE IS THE WOMAN? HELP ME PLEASE!!!
In Jesus name I pray.
Amen.
from my next entry...three days later- August 18 1:10 a.m.
It's funny how the Lord answers your prayers- I'm receiving promptings, reminders and little "hellos!" about the Catholic Faith.
I began to look into it last night. It really sparked something in me. I've been reading about it and printing stuff for the past 4 hours. I feel incredibly DRAWN. I really feel an indescribable pull. I cried several times tonight reading this stuff- the Eucharist seems OH so much more profound and beautiful - I thought of that as I took communion today (in my old Anglican church)- And that I feel faith is NOT enough. I feel that my faith is attempting to lead to obedience and action. I want to WALK THE WALK.
And the missing books of the Bible- And the fact that the Catholic faith is now what is was 2000 years ago and is WHAT JESUS TAUGHT. I know where I am going and I thank my Glorious Father for these amazing insights. Blessed Father- I love you so much! thank you for my life!
By the way- I found the WOMAN-
HER NAME IS MARY.
Back to the present-
I looked into this for a few more months, knowing it was where I was supposed to go but left it behind out of fear that I would not be able to marry Lloyd (because of a prior marriage). (Ironic isn't it, since I didn't seem to be too crazy about the idea at the time)
Anyway, I basically forgot about all of these discoveries and went on with my life until I nearly lost it this summer. Hence my wake-up call and better-late-than-never obedience.
In my time in the protestant church, there were always discussions over the role of women- in the Anglican it was about the ordination (in which I found myself agreeing with the Catholic church's position).
There was ( and these are just my feelings, ok?) this well-masked but secret glee about the male role of "superiority". And because Mary was basically a non-entity in the church, women and their roles were not really discussed.
Except for of course our secretarial roles, the gathering and distribution of information, and oh yes, the cleaning of the church and hosting of the home meetings and parties and of the cooking, cleaning up for and organizing of these. Also, the child care, the teaching of the children, and any and all menial tasks. So we had our roles, but I digress....
I'm flying by the seat of my pants here and I'm not quite sure where I'm going so bear with me.
As I was saying, I had forgotten about my discovery of the WOMAN- (funny, that's what Jesus called her at the wedding, wasn't it?) and my re-discovery was like finding a beautiful buried treasure. This treasure I had known in my heart was there all my life, but I had been told that it did not exist or that it existed in a perverted fashion.
Now this Catholic stuff is still very very new to me and there is a lot I didn't realize back when such as Mary's "perfectness" or sinlessness. This I had a hard time with just a few days ago as I struggled mightily not to hurt my little girl Meaghan who was pressing on my last nerve.
I cried out to Mary something like "How am I supposed to relate to a perfect woman? You never struggled with your temper! YOU never had problems with your kid!" ( yes, I know, the whole crucifiction thing could be described as a 'problem'- I'm talking about dealing with a toddler here)
So I guess what I'm saying is... how DO I relate to Mary, now that I've rediscovered her? Where do I go with her, How do we work together? What do I do with my treasure?
____________________
always a seeker
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HelenRose
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Cedaredge, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Helen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian Church, Catholic Church |
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 07:38 pm |
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New Creation wrote:
So I guess what I'm saying is... how DO I relate to Mary, now that I've rediscovered her? Where do I go with her, How do we work together? What do I do with my treasure?
I go to Mary as I would go to a trusted friend. She listens and she loves. Most of all I go to Mary as an example.
I love thinking about the moment Mary said "Yes" to God. In my way of thinking this was the moment for all women.
She did not ask her father for permission. She did not ask a brother or uncle. She did not even discuss this with her husband-to-be. She, a woman, a shinning light for all women made her decision - her convenant - alone with God. She was willing to carry the consequences of her decision with trust.
She opened the doors for all women in humility and love.
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 260 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 08:07 pm |
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Paula,
I don't have all the answers. But just a thought... If Mary was perfect, it was in her perfect obedience. It was in her sinlessness. That being said, I don't think it means that she never struggled. Even Jesus was tempted. I imagine Mary was, too. There's a difference, you see, between being tempted and falling into sin. We have no power over being tempted, unless we keep ourselves locked up in a cage, and even then we can't really escape. There would simply be different kinds of temptations.
So how do you relate to her? Not sure if this will sound too simplistic or if it's what you're looking for, but relate to her as your model... your "heroine." Think of it. Kids have to have heroes, whether their heroes are their parents, a big brother or sister, an athletic figure... whoever. But we all need heroes. Why? Because there is something in us that strives for perfection, something in us that needs to believe that if someone can be admirable, we can, too, so we try to emulate whatever it is in that person that we find admirable. You want to relate to Mary? Then emulate the qualities you find admirable in her. You might find that you will take on some of her persona. Then you will find yourself feeling closer to her.
So, OK, you "struggled" with your little girl. But I'm guessing you didn't actually hurt her. Count it as a victory and thank God for the example of Mary. Think of it. You cried out to Mary. You were relating to her. We all relate in different ways at different times. Sometimes you might be able to "feel the love." Sometimes you won't. That's life.
But the important thing is, just follow her example when she says, "Do whatever He tells you." I guess that's the best thing to do. Allow her to lead you closer to her Son. That's relating to her because that is WHO she is: the God-bearer. She is the Mother who bears God to us. That's really it in a nutshell. Just let her be who she is. There is no other way to relate to her, really.
Don't know if this helps. Just found myself rambling on here...
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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HelenRose
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Cedaredge, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Helen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian Church, Catholic Church |
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 08:47 pm |
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New Creation wrote:
I cried out to Mary something like "How am I supposed to relate to a perfect woman? You never struggled with your temper! YOU never had problems with your kid!" ( yes, I know, the whole crucifiction thing could be described as a 'problem'- I'm talking about dealing with a toddler here)
Dealing with a toddler. Bless your heart. Look at Mary when you cry out to her. She is full of understanding and patience. You are her child. You are her toddler. Wrap yourself in her arms and you will find the strength to get through the day.
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 660 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 06:56 am |
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New Creation wrote: little girl Meaghan who was pressing on my last nerve.
I cried out to Mary something like "How am I supposed to relate to a perfect woman? You never struggled with your temper! YOU never had problems with your kid!" ( yes, I know, the whole crucifiction thing could be described as a 'problem'- I'm talking about dealing with a toddler here)
Mary got upset with Jesus, I'm sure of it. Remember that one time when they were traveling back from the temple and couldn't find Jesus? They had to go all the way back to Jeruselum and she asked him "how could you do this to us?" She must have been so worried about her son. That was only one incident that made it into the Bible. Jesus was a little boy. I have a little boy. If Jesus was fully human, I know how little boys act. Sweet and lovey one mintute, full of fire and vinegar the next 
Mary was a woman that had to take care of her family. You can't tell me she never burned dinner, never had to deal with PMS crankiness. I imagine she also may have got upset with Joseph for ~something~. You know how we women can be, lol.
Yes, she may have been without sin, but she was still a women who experienced feelings and emotions just like us. That is the Mary I relate best to, not the beautiful Queen of Heaven version.
Ali
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New Creation
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| Joined: | Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 45 |
| First Name: | Paula | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | wicca 9 yrs, Anglican 5 yrs, RCIA now! |
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 02:06 pm |
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| Ali, I really needed that. thank you. That was perfect.
____________________
always a seeker
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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Ali wrote: Yes, she may have been without sin, but she was still a women who experienced feelings and emotions just like us. That is the Mary I relate best to, not the beautiful Queen of Heaven version.
I think it is important to remember when we think of Jesus as "a man like us in all things but sin" and Mary as the sinless ever-virgin that they were not exempt from human emotions and foibles, they just did not let them progress to the point of sinfulness. Emotions are gifts from God. We feel anger and frustration and these are not necessarily sinful. Jesus and Mary certainly felt these emotions just as we do. We, however, are weak, and easily slip into sin, while Jesus and Mary did not allow that failure to creep into their perfect lives.
So yes, in my opinion, Mary as a mother no doubt felt moments of frustration over her son, and Jesus no doubt had his moments when he was less than fully considerate of others, because such is the nature of youth. These are not sins, they are normal states of life, and if Jesus and Mary were exempt from them, then they were not "like us in all things but sin". It helps me to relate to both Mary and Jesus by remembering that they went through all the same trials and tribulations as I, and when I have to pick myself up after falling, I feel their helping hands because they never fell.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 03:44 pm |
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Hi Paula,
Thanks for the honest sharing. I admire that, and I'm sure many others do too. The following essay of mine (published in The Catholic Answer magazine and later in a book about Mary edited by Fr. Peter Stravinskas, published by OSV) seems to almost be an answer to some of your questions. Perhaps you might receive some benefit from it. I hope so!:
The Imitation of Mary
A Catholic friend asked me:
Hey, I've got an apologetics question that I've been trying to answer for months (from my wife). She has trouble identifying with Mary because of Mary's Immaculate Conception. In my wife's mind, the special graces given to Mary through the perfect relationship she had (has) with God, make it impossible for the rest of us to emulate/imitate her. She keeps repeating the assertion that "it would have been more of a miracle if God chose a normal woman by which to enter the world."
I am a convert from Evangelical Protestantism. She was raised in that environment and is now attending Mass, but not yet Catholic. The Marian doctrines seem to be her final stumbling stone (which I can fully understand, since they were mine also).
My answer:
Well, this is a good question. I'll do my best to take a crack at it. All of us miserable sinners find ourselves in an awkward position when it comes to God and perfect people like the Blessed Virgin Mary. I would come at this from several different angles:
First, we need to distinguish between relating to Mary and emulating her. Since she was indeed without sin (both original and actual), in that sense it is of course difficult to "walk in her shoes," so to speak. Yet, when it comes to imitation, it is a fact of life that in our better moments we all strive to emulate people who are "superior" to us, whom we admire and look up to - those who have succeeded in areas we still yearn for and dream about. That's what all the talk about "role models" is about. If we didn't have a high goal to strive for, how could we improve and become the type of people we want to be? More on this later.
Second, what Catholics have most revered about Mary through the centuries (I think) is her humility and willingness to be mightily used by God as the Theotokos (God-bearer). In this sense she is like us: a mere human being who said yes to God, thus reversing the no of Eve (hence her designation as the Second Eve in the Fathers). This is the Mary of the Annunciation (Lk 1:38; cf 1:48).
Now, one might counter with the objection that she had to say yes, being sinless, yet Catholics would not hold to that assertion, since we also believe in free will. It is true of all of us that we must agree to accept and cooperate with the graces that always originate from God (e.g., 1 Cor 3:8-9, 15:10, 2 Cor 6:1). We are, in a sense, "co-laborers" with God. We do not adhere to fatalism or determinism (even Calvinists deny that they hold such a view). If we take the logic that she "had to do it," therefore it wasn't meritorious, to its logical conclusion, we would also have to say that God's voluntary good actions are not good, since He is unable - by the nature of things - to sin. So we assert that Mary did the right thing, and that she was a created human being like the rest of us, even though without sin, and that this is both her glory and her commonality with us.
Third, Mary is not intrinsically superior in essence to the rest of us. She received from God all of the grace which she possessed in abundance (Lk 1:28 - full of grace in some translations). She was merely given more of it at one time, and earlier, than us. All human beings who are to be saved for eternity in heaven will one day be without sin, unstained, immaculate, just as Mary was from conception, and just as all of us were meant to be, but for the Fall of Adam and Eve. That's why Cardinal Newman said it was easier to believe in the Immaculate Conception than it was to accept the fact that all human beings are conceived in original sin, since it was one mere exception to the universal rule.
Fourth, while it is appealing in a sense to ponder a sinful Mary whom God could have used as well (which is indeed not an impossible hypothetical scenario - and one I used to argue also), God chose, rather, to make her sinless since this was appropriate for the ark of the new covenant who carried God incarnate and shared even her own blood with Him in utero. So God chose to act in a special way to preserve Mary from sin. I don't think it is unreasonable at all to believe that He would do that, given that He will eventually cleanse totally all saved persons so that they will be fit for heaven. If we must be clean to enter heaven and stand in God's presence (Rev 21:27), then it seems only proper for the Mother of God to possess a commensurate righteousness for that unfathomable task, privilege, and honor. In fact, if I were her, I would much rather have been granted that special grace than to have to face that awesome situation as a sinner!
Fifth, there are plenty of other sinful, "weak" models in Scripture that we can relate to as like us in that sense: vacillating, overzealous Peter, perhaps proud, tempestuous Paul, stuttering Moses and his wimpy brother Aaron, blame-shifting Adam, murderous and adulterous David, doubting Thomas, deceptive Jacob, sexually-weak Samson, drunken, incestuous Noah, etc. I don't think it is implausible for God to spare one, lone human being (His earthly mother at that) from the onslaught of original sin. In fact, I wonder myself why He didn't make more people sinless!
Finally, getting back to the first point, I think this objection fails in the final analysis because it is unscriptural, for the following reasons: we are commanded to imitate the Apostle Paul and other saints (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9; cf. Jas. 5:10-11, Heb 6:12 and ch. 11), which is difficult enough. Paul sinned as we do, but he also did extraordinary things that in all likelihood we will never accomplish. He was an Apostle! Yet we are called to "imitate" him. Christianity is filled with this sort of striving for what in fact is virtually unattainable in this lifetime. That's one of the many paradoxes of our faith. We may not achieve a 100% grade, but we can shoot for a 90%, or 80% (speaking of sanctification, not the grounds of salvation), as God allows, and as we are faithful in allowing Him to do His work in us. The ideals are always there to shoot for.
Now, the rub is that Paul in turn, imitates Christ, and calls for us to do that as well (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6). Here we are in the same boat as with Mary, and much more so, since this is God Incarnate. Obviously we will not "imitate" Him perfectly, but we are called to do our best, and live by His example. And in our Lord Jesus we find the same humility (of course even more profound) that we find in Mary: He humbled Himself first by giving up divine prerogatives and becoming man (Phil 2:5-7) and then dying on the cross (Phil 2:8). And that is the glory of the Incarnation itself: the fact that God would so humble Himself out of love for us, as to become one of us - like His own creatures. C.S. Lewis compared that act to a person becoming an ant. We don't say that we can't relate to Christ because He is God, but that we can relate to Him since He is a man:For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin.
(Hebrews 4:15 [NRSV]; cf. 4:16, 5:7-8, 2:17-18, Is 53:3, 2 Cor 5:21, 1 Pet 2:19-21) Therefore, since we are expressly informed in Scripture that Jesus our Lord and God, who did not and could not sin, can nevertheless relate to us, "sympathize with our weaknesses," and has been tested like us "in every respect," we can relate all the more so to Mary, who is a creature as we are, yet without sin. In other words, it is not sinlessness which is inherently opposed to human nature, as if sin and concupiscence were the "normal" state. Rather, it is sin which is "unhuman," since it stands in the way of what God intended for the human race, and what will one day indeed be accomplished among the saved and the elect. Thus, Mary is more "human" than all of us, and therefore can help us (by example and intercession) to be what we should be: more like Jesus, her beloved Son, and less in bondage to sin. She is the example of what all of us can be more and more in this life, and what we assuredly will essentially be in the next if we persevere in the faith.
Catholic Christianity recognizes and venerates the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Mother of God, as the exemplar of what redeemed humanity will one day be: the forerunner, the quintessential Christian and symbol of the Church itself, our Spiritual Mother and Queen of Heaven, who was spared by God's grace the curse of death and immediately received her glorious resurrected body after her earthly sojourn had come to an end. And that's why we and others have fulfilled the prophecy that Mary gave concerning herself: . . . from now on all generations will call me blessed.
(Lk 1:48b) And why is she blessed?: for the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
(Lk 1:49) Mary is always glorifying God the Father and Jesus, never herself, for this is her purpose and calling. All of the Marian doctrines are Christocentric. They were promulgated in the first place so that Jesus Christ would be glorified, not Mary. And this is why Catholics have venerated her above all creatures, and why any Christian can indeed "relate to" and "identify with" her, because she glorifies and imitates God, and that is what all serious Christians want to do (and are commanded to do) too.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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