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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 09:52 pm |
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| If I ever became a Catholic, would I just HAVE to pray to Mary? I hold Mary in GREAT respect and admiration. I will LOVE meeting her in heaven, someday, and thanking her for living such a righteous life and being willing to do all that she did (I also still strongly suspect, in a very admiring way, that she is likely the one who helped inform Luke, Paul and others about much in the life of Jesus). Even so, as I read Scriptures, leaving open the door that what the Catholic Church believes about Mary and practices involving her COULD be true, right now, I just do not see anything which causes me to feel that I should pray to her. I respect and honor the beliefs of my dearly beloved Catholic brothers and sisters, whom I greatly admire, and if praying to Mary is what you feel you should do, by all means, do so! Even so, I still have to wonder, and restating the question, if I ever should become a Catholic, would I have to pray to Mary? Mind you, I like to think that those who have gone on can and do look upon us and it is a wonderful thought that they might pray for us (I hope that they can and do), yet, even so, respecting and admiring her as I do, I just cannot presently bring myself (and no disrespect intended whatsoever - hope she understands and will love me anyway) to pray to Mary. So, again, may one be Catholic and just leave praying to Mary an open question? What say ye?
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 10:17 pm |
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Oh, by the way, the above question reminded me of an incident which happened when I was in middle school (we called it Junior High back then). In a way, it is kind of humorous and in a way it is kind of touching. I'll share it with you just for the sake of sharing in fellowship. Anyway, one day, way back in the way back, many moons ago in the mid 1960s when CajunRick and I were just young fellers, I had walked to our local library to do some reading (back before the Internet). We used to have, in my native Bristol, Virginia/Bristol, Tennessee, a yearly "Appalachian Preaching Mission", a protestant, ecumenical gathering, sort of like a so called "revival" when a number of churches would have nightly services in a local basketball arena sort of like Billy Graham's crusades used to be held. I had planned on attending the one being held that evening so I was on my way home from the library so I could eat supper and go to the Preaching Mission service. As I walked by a local gas station, I heard a voice say, "Son, can I speak to you?" I looked and, on a low wall next to the gas station, sat an older man who was a bit rumpled looking. I started to say, "Sir, I need to go on home",thinking that he was looking for a handout and I didn't have any money to give him. He said, "I don't want any money, I just want to talk with you about your Mother!" Wondering who this was and how he knew my mother, I went over, and he started to talk with me. Sadly, the "booze fumes" on his breath were about enough to make me cross eyed and I had to sort of back off a little, however, he surprised me by talking about Mary, the Mother of our Lord. He said that he had been a lapsed Catholic and was planning to try to get off the booze and get back to church so I silently offered up a prayer that he would, that God would help him with that. He told me that he had, earlier that day, been released from jail for public intoxication. He said that he had told the Judge about Mary and had apparently done his best to convert the Judge to the Catholic Church. He said that the Judge had commended him for his faith and enouraged him to follow it, but had been non-commital. So, as I respectfully listened, he spent the next half hour trying to convert me to the Catholic Church! He spoke to me of not forgetting about my Mother, Mary. After a while, I just had to get on home because my parents would be wondering where I was - they were, it turned out, and startled when I told them about the man I had talked with and what he said - so I told him that I didn't mean to be rude, that I just HAD to go on, so we wished each other well, and, as I went on, he called after me saying "Don't forget Mary, your Mother! Don't forget your Mother!" I never saw him again and wondered what happened to him - I wondered if perhaps he ended up in front of the Judge again - I prayed for him during the Appalachian Preaching Mission service, asking God to watch over him and help him get off the alcohol. Occasionally, I have remembered him, wondering who he was and amazed that he, through an alcoholic haze, was so intent upon converting people to the Catholic Church (I am sure the local Monsignor, at St. Anne's at the time, would have been interested in getting him some help had he known about him, I just didn't know, then, what to do to help him). I did think about what he said and was touched about the idea of Mary as Mother of us all. Anyway, I guess sometimes one can get spiritual instruction from the most unexpected sources!
In sharing the above story and in asking my question above, I again share with you that I surely do have utmost respect and admiration for Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. I hope that the inebriated gentleman, with whom I chatted about her, may have met her in person by now.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 10:48 pm |
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I'm sure the moderators here and church experts will have a definitive answer for you, but after thinking it over, I don't recall being required to pray to anyone, not even God! We are required to accept the teaching of the church, which includes the sacraments, etc. We are required to accept the teachings on Mary, for example that she was conceived without sin, that she was assumed bodily into heaven, that she was and is ever virgin. No one ever said, now you have to pray to Mary, or God.
For someone who has lived a long protestant life, it is a big deal to get through. Cradle catholics may not always understand how wrenching it is to make that change from Jesus only, to Mary and other saints being included.
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StephenC
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 10:53 pm |
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Short answer, No
Long answer, No
But I look at it this way. All we are asking is for Mary and the Saints to pray for/with us. As they are alive in heaven. I have prayer partners here on earth, and some who are in high places. 
Last edited on Fri Apr 25th, 2008 10:54 pm by StephenC
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Hidden One
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 11:00 pm |
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Judging by every single examination fo conscience I've ever encountered, nto praying to God is a sin. However, ntohign about Mary.
Exempting when it's in the liturgy, Marshall, I don't think you're ever really mandated to pray to Mary. Even then, you could technically stay silent. I also seem to recall being told that I simpyl had to beleive prayers to the Saints worked, and not actually have to do it, ro osemthing to that effect. But I think you'll eventually end up like me, and go the whole way with Mary, as it were. She's Mom. Like, really.
When you have time, I'd advise you watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKW8qjXR7c It's Abp. Fulton J. Sheen talking about Mary, aprt 1 of 4. (40 minutes total or so.) Maybe he'll have an effect on whatever. He definitely tells funny stories in this, so you'll like it. 
AMDG,
Hidden One
____________________
1 John 4:7-12
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 01:19 am |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote: What say ye?
Stephen is right.
Short answer, no.
Long answer, no.
As a Catholic, you cannot fail to honor her. She was the first to hear and understand the teachings of Christ. After all, she raised him, nurtured him, and gave him his humanity. She was so honored by the early Church that she was present in the Upper Room on that feast of Pentecost.
As a Catholic, you cannot fail to follow scripture ("All generations will call me blessed.")
As a Catholic, you cannot fail to accept the doctrines of the Church in believing in her perpetual virginity, her Immaculate Conception, her sinlessness, her miraculous Assumption, and her coronation as Queen of Heaven.
I can't imagine how you could reject those things as a Christian of any type.
But do you have to pray to her? No.
But you will. She is a most powerful prayer partner.
So don't think of it as praying "to" her, but praying "with" her. But you don't even have to do that.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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ordinary means
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 01:48 am |
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Marshall,
It snuck up on me.
In my forty years as a Catholic I have been constantly amazed by how far I have to go. I am sure by now you are aware that the Church is about the Eucharist and more importantly the Mass is about Jesus’ sacrifice for us. If you listen closely at Mass we listen to the Word, which is Jesus. We ask the Holy Spirit to confect the bread and wine and than offer that sacrifice to God for our sins.
Different stages in life present new challenges in perfecting the heart. While I never had to overcome the fears about asking the intercession of Mary it never felt necessary until recently. Being a Catholic is a journey that culminates the day you collapse before the cross in death and present your imperfect heart for judgment. Baptism is only the beginning for us.
In my forty years I never developed a relationship with Mary or any of the saints. Now as a father of three girls I find that I have begun calling on Mary and Joseph for intercession in my family. I have always been fortunate to know the power of prayer and asking others to pray for me. Ever so slowly as a father I began to ask Mary to keep the kids close to Christ and Joseph to pray that I have the wisdom and fortitude to be a holy dad. While I am not their yet it will not surprise me in the least for a devotion to develop before I fall asleep in Christ.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 02:36 am |
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Only non-Catholics, or catholics who haven't done their "homework" will tell you that you have to pray to Mary. 
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 02:53 am |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote:
Then, one night, not long after the funeral, I was asleep, next to my wife, when I had a very vivid dream. In the dream, I dreamed that Grandmama had somehow spiritually come back down from heaven. . . . I felt a strange peace about her that has never left me since then! . . . I praised and thanked God for that experience! Frankly, I have come to strongly suspect, that those in heaven probably DO watch and intercede for those of us on earth! I certainly like to think that they do, that we are, indeed, "...surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses!" . . .
Dear Marshall,
Was it an accident that you had a grandmother who taught you a reverence for holy things?
Was it an accident that you experienced a comforting visitation from her?
Was it an accident that you found your way to this forum?
Mother Mary intercedes for the Church. Your beloved grandmother joined her in interceding especially for you. They have been before the throne of God asking that grace fall on your heart, that you will have the faith to embrace Mother Church.
Don't make it more complicated than it is, Marshall. You usually have no trouble breaking the ice with a new person. Speak to Mary as if you had just been introduced to her. Tell her the truth. (You feel weird. You're uncomfortable about the whole thing. You're not even sure she hears you. You hope you're not doing anything wrong by speaking to her.)
Ask your grandmother to explain to Mary that, given your background, it isn't surprising that you haven't been speaking to her. Express your regret over not having established a relationship with her sooner.
Start small. Be honest. Keep it simple.
Experience your grandmother's presence along with the Blessed Mother's presence.
Talk to both of them and ask for their prayers. If your grandmother's presence seems much more real now, that's fine. It will come. No rush.
You don't have me fooled for one minute, Marshall. I know your heart and believe that you would be the first to extend utmost and tender courtesy to the Mother of our Lord. You're just a bit tongue-tied right now in the presence of a beautiful, holy Lady and Queen. There's plenty of time to get to know her. It's fine to move slowly.
Becky
Last edited on Sat Apr 26th, 2008 02:55 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Didi
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 03:06 am |
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I believe Jesus gave Mary to us as our Mother when he turned to the beloved disciple on the cross and said "Behold your Mother." He gave her to us because He knew we would need her. As others have told you, most of us come to some point when we realize this. Once we understand that Mary's entire purpose is to bring the Savior to the world, to help us know and understand her Son more clearly, and that she loves us more than all the love of all the mothers of the world put together, we realize what a gift He gave us.
As I've heard Father John Corapi say many times: "If she's good enough for Jesus, she's good enough for me!"
So, yes, the short answer is that you do not have to pray (talk) to Mary, but hopefully someday you will see what a gift (and privilege) it is!
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 05:02 am |
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| I am very grateful to you all for your kind answers and will be grateful for any additional answers I may receive. This question is one with which I have been greatly struggling. Our dear Saint Becky, the Intercessor, reminded me of what I had shared about a dream I had about my dearly beloved maternal Grandmother just after she went on to be with the Lord. I still am in awe of that dream because it was so vivid and because my cousin, who lives in North Carolina, had the very same dream around the same time as me. Also, several days ago I was having a great deal of trouble getting our second car, our old '89 Honda "hooptie" (my "affectionate term for it, ha, ha) started. In frustration and irritation, about to give up, I prayed, "Lord, please help me get this doggone car started!" In that instant, it came to me what I should do and I somehow found myself feeling a very strong presence that not only my Heavenly Father but my late earthly father (who taught mechanics to Cadets at West Point, during World War II and was an excellent mechanic) were looking over my shoulder as if they were putting in my mind what I should do - and it worked! I don't know what was happening spiritually, however, somehow what to do was coming into my mind and it worked and I felt warmed and loved. Also, last summer, at the end of July, before I had discovered this forum, I was in St. Mary's Hospital, in nearby Henrico County, with another infection in my lower left leg. As some who have read my posts may know, my avatar is Blessed Junipero Serra who, like me, had a problem with leg infections too. Having just been admitted to the hospital, sitting there with IV antibiotics running into my arm, I was upset and depressed. Looking up at the crucifix on the wall I raised up a prayer for God to heal me and, thinking of Padre Serra, I also said, "Blessed Junipero Serra, if you can hear me at all, if talking to saints asking for prayer really works, please intercede for me and ask God to heal me!" The next day, my physician - "hospitalist" as they call Internal Medicine specialists who work in hospitals nowadays - came in, looked at my leg and said, "Wow! I was NOT expecting this! Your leg has done MIRACULOUSLY well!! I can send you home on oral antibiotics today!" So things like the above shake me, leave me in awe and cause me to leave open the door that we CAN ask the saints and the Mother of our Lord Mary (whose name the hospital I was in proudly carries). Yet, I guess like Saint Thomas, I still struggle with the idea of asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us. Mind you, I LIKE the idea, I like it a LOT, I just still struggle with it. I don't want to abandon it, as some protestants have, yet I just haven't been able to embrace it as I should were I to become a Catholic. Anyway, your answers comfort me and inspire me! I am extremely grateful for them! May God richly bless all of you, dear Catholic friends! Thank you!!
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Hidden One
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 02:25 pm |
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It starts with one Hail Mary... [Offered for the intentions of EMarshallBuckles.]
Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with you
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen.
You''ve already started to pray to saints... you included in your prayer an "if you can hear me" last time - I promise you that it would be far, far better to pray one Hail Mary with an "if you can hear me, if talking to you asking for prayer really works" somewhere in there than not to pray one at all.
I've been where you are. Standing by a cliff, looking to jump, with the entire Catholic Church saying "Jump! For Our Lady will catch you!". You've already kicked some pebbles over the side, and somebody caught them; you can keep kicking more, and/or you can just jump. And the jump is realy scary. What helped me most was reading stories of other people who jumped and had already jumped. And even then, it was over a year after I... tripped and fell off the cliff almost rather by mistake... that I actually tried to embrace my Mother, Rosary in hand.
"Spera in Deo", Marshall. "Trust in God", and talk to the Mother He trusted in enough to be born through. Yuo don't have to do this - any of this - today... but I know, from experience, that it's easier to jump before your feet sink in to the stone, before the gales of calamity drive you over, and before you just sort of can't avoid it.
Thomas beheld the Lord's wounds. You beheld the prayers of Blessed Junipero Serra, who, by foot, traveled to Mexico City from vera Cruz to dedicate his missionary vocation to Our Lady [of Guadeloupe]. So long as you seek the Truth of the Way and the Life hereafter, I beleive you will one day - soon - cry "My Lady, my Mother!"
Prayin' for you.
____________________
1 John 4:7-12
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 02:44 pm |
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Marshall- many of us came into the church with and attitude of "I believe, lord help me with my unbelief" - in regards to something or other. Most non Liturgical Protestants ( see how specific I can get? ) have trouble with Mary, as everyone knows I came from an AngloCatholic background so the Mary thing wasn't an issue. I had never thought about contraception- but in reading both secular and nonsecular opinions I have come to fully believe the Churches position on this. My greatest sticking point was confession- not so much the fact of it but the actual doing and the first time I did go it wasn't anything that gave me great blessings- that may have been the confessor- he is not my favorite. I accepted confession as " rule to follow"- obedience rather than heartfelt belief. I have since come to feel differently about the process- and indeed in my former church there was a process whereby we could make appointments for private confession but only one person that I know of ever did and she said our priest was not comfortable hearing confessions.
Another small sticking point for me was the obligation to be in Mass every Sunday and the mortal sin aspect of it. I have since come to realize that even in our small community we have a lot of Churches and Masses to choose from so it hasn't been an issue. The Holy days of obligation are more so since they are weeknights and I forget about them.
It comes down to - 1 can you accept that Mary was a virgin before the birth?
2. Can you accept that Christ was immaculately conceived?
3. can you accept that she and Joseph lived celibate lives? ( honestly an easier mindset in other cultures and times than ours today)
4. Can you accept that God knew that she would accept his son that she was kept "pure" from original sin so that our Lord would be housed for nine months in a pure womb? ( after all you believe that God created the world right?
5. Can you accept that she was assumed to Heaven? No one has ever claimed to have any relics nor has any site been claimed as her burial place.
____________________
Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Sat Apr 26th, 2008 04:43 pm |
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I love you story Ed, that is awesome. I just wander if he was not an angel, sent to plant a seed for you. So many beautiful responces, I agree with Becky, nothing is by accident in those situations. Glory to God!
I remember that time well, coming into the Catholic Church. I said 'Lord I am here, but you have to walk me through the Bible and teach me about this Mary stuff.'
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (KJV 1611)
(We are Jesus brothers and sisters - we are here seed)
Exekiel 44:1-3 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
(God showed me that the Church teaches us of Mary being 'Ever Virgin' through this verse)
Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelations 4:4-5-10-11 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices...The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
(Then continuing in Revelations it speaks of the elders speaking)
Then it was like the V-8 commercial we see now days, only I understood that the saints were there, already interceding for us, as in Rev. 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Revelations 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book...
Luke 1:
40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Well that was part of my adventure in understanding the intercession of the saints.
KJV 1611 - http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/thebible.htm
Maybe the Byzantine forms of the familiar Hail Mary will help...
Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.
Closing Prayers
JOYFUL MYSTERIES: It is truly proper to glorify thee, who hast borne God, the ever-blessed and immaculate and the Mother of our God! More honorable than the cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim art thou, who without corruption gavest birth to God the Word. Thee, truly the Mother of God, we magnify!
SORROWFUL MYSTERIES: We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God. Despise not our prayers in our necessities but deliver us from all danger, O glorious and ever-blessed Virgin.
GLORIOUS MYSTERIES: To thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of victory and thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Mother of God: but as one with invincible might, from all dangers deliver us that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!
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Therese Z
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 12:16 am |
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Funny that I read this the day after I made a visit to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, couldn't get my mind to settle down to the Presence, skipping off on home remodeling and work and everything else, so I got out my rosary. I'm not much of a Rosary-sayer. I decided to pray the Glorious Mysteries and the last two are about Mary's Assumption into Heaven and her being named as Queen of Heaven. I have very little relationship to Mary, although I like others above admire her and want to emulate her "Fiat" in every way. I found myself in that Rosary saying those mysteries to myself, pausing to wait for prayerful words and settling for "I believe that the Church through the centuries and centuries knew and knows Mary's importance to us and that she is in the 'special place God has prepared for her,' and if the Church knows it to be true, then I accept it and hope for more revelation and understanding."
I have prayed for knowledge of Church teachings in the past and been given it either temporally (turned on Catholic TV or radio right when it was being discussed), personally (a friend brought it up or was ready to answer a question) or even spiritually (God just opened up the knowledge in my heart and soul). So I'm willing to be patient and wait for real understanding of my relationship with Mary.
Other saints I already have appealed to for prayer and felt or observed the results, or drawn great comfort from their writings or their lives, so I know the way to the Communion of the Saints, but Mary and I are sort of waiting to form a relationship. I try not to worry about it.
Last edited on Sun Apr 27th, 2008 12:18 am by Therese Z
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Cathcon
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 04:45 am |
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Kim forgive me if I sound picky but the Immaculate Conception is about Our Lady conceived without sin not Our Lord conceived without sin - His is a given hers a doctrine of the church which we are required to believe.
Marshall you have had many answers and for two cents worth - I was Catholic probably about 10 years of more before my relationship with Our Lady started - she now is the mother I can go to with all my problems - she has always come through for me - even when my son was addicted to meth - I prayed the rosary twice and day and he is clean 8 years now and has never gone to rehab - Also to understand the concept of the importance of Our Lady we also need to understand from the old testament the concept of the Queen Mother in the Dividic Line - Scott Hahn has a great book which covers this aspect called Hail Holy Queen - I recommend this as a read. One thing too that I had to learn in becoming Catholic was how impossible it is to understand the new testament unless you know the old testament - they go hand in hand giving us the true information God intended us to receive.
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brian
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 05:51 am |
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I have been through this and I can tell you that God will most likely help you get through this. Just keep seeking Him and telling Him that you want to know about what He wants you to know about, including Mary. That you will not resist what He has for you in regards to relationship to her, but that you need help to make it more natural. He or she will not force it on you but as you go as far as your faith allows and occasionally dig deeper you will find things developing naturally.
As one who was very afraid of this at first and having gone through some fear when I first delved into it, am amazed at how well it worked out for me the more I got used to it. I think (know) she has a heart for those children of hers that would like to know her better but just want to make sure and positive that they are honoring God first. This is what she wants for us anyway. But she can help us a tremendous amount toward this means. So I think you are getting great advice here and on a path that sounds like it is leading in the right direction. We go one step at a time. Just try neither to jump ahead, nor to resist.
Brian
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 02:26 pm |
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im forgive me if I sound picky but the Immaculate Conception is about Our Lady conceived without sin not Our Lord conceived without sin - His is a given hers a doctrine of the church which we are required to believe I knew that, don't know why I typed it- except that i was talking with an LDS nieghbour and she believes that God physically joined with Mary to conceive Jesus and I guess I still had that on my mind when I was writing.
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Cathcon
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 04:32 pm |
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I know what you mean - we have been bombarded by LDS here and get this - two of their missionaries are going to our Wednesday Night bible study - The Bible Timeline by Jeff Cavins - hope and trust that some seeds get planted.
God bless
Marie
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 07:27 pm |
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Ok since somoene in this thread has mentioned Revelations chapter 12, I have a minor Mariology question:
I was reading Rome Sweet Home, by Scott Hahn and it pointed to Mary as being the woman mentioned in the text. However I've also heard that she, since she was free from original sin and the effects thereof was also blessed with a painless birth.
However Revelations 12:2 says "Then heing with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth."
Is this not Mary? or is this concept of a painless birth not sound doctorine?
Thanks,
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Apr 27th, 2008 10:55 pm |
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Callie, here’s what the Navarre Bible Commentary says:
The mysterious figure of the woman has been interpreted ever since the time of the Fathers of the Church as referring to the ancient people of Israel, or the Church of Jesus Christ, or the Blessed Virgin. The text supports all of these interpretations but in none do all the details fit. The woman can stand for the people of Israel, for it is from that people that the Messiah comes, and Isaiah compares Israel to “a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near her time” (Is 26:17).
She can also stand for the Church, whose children strive to overcome evil and to bear witness to Jesus Christ (cf. v. 17). Following this interpretation St. Gregory wrote: “The sun stands for the light of truth, and the moon for the transitoriness of temporal things; the holy Church is clothes like the sun because she is protected by the splendour of supernatural truth, and she has the moon under her feet because she is above all earthly things” (Moralia, 34, 12).
The passage can also refer to the Virgin Mary because it was she who truly and historically gave birth to the Messiah, Jesus Christ our Lord (cf. v. 5). St. Bernard comments: “The sun contains permanent colour and splendour; whereas the moon’s brightness is unpredictable and changeable, for it never stays the same. It is quite right, then, for Mary to be depicted as clothed with the sun, for she entered the profundity of divine wisdom much much further than one can possibly conceive” (De B. Virgine, 2).
The text goes on to describe how Mary is a “type” or symbol of the Church, citing the gospels of Luke and Matthew and the document Lumen Gentium from the Second Vatican Council. This helps to tie the one interpretation to the others, making possible a single coherent vision of the three interpretations.
The first point I would make here is the one made by the Navarre Bible Commentary at the outset: “The text supports all of these interpretations but in none do all the details fit.” In fact, if we look at most prophecies in the Old Testament, we will see that the same holds true for them. Whatever interpretation is given (and they are often more than one), not all the details fit the interpretation.
Why is this so? Because a prophecy is a shadow or figure, not just a “telling beforehand” what is to come. Nothing is plain and simple. Human beings are involved, and even though the Holy Spirit inspires them, they speak in human concepts and language. In part this is to remind us that any prophecy can be plausibly interpreted in other ways, and in part it is an invitation to realize the limitations of the human mode of speaking. Some have suggested that the birth pangs are merely a conventional way of indicating a woman in childbirth; that this birth was perhaps different in that there were no such pains is therefore irrelevant to the author’s purpose. Others maintain something entirely differet: “The woman’s pain in travail may recall the curse of Eve, whose offspring would ultimately wound the serpent, so that Israel is seen as representing all humanity” (1970 Jerusalem Bible, note).
The idea of the “miraculous and painless nature of Christ’s birth” is apparently of medieval origin, based on the suggested interpretations of theologians as to just how Mary could remain a virgin not only before, but during and after that birth. Thus, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bernard defend it. See this article by the well-known contemporary mariologist Mark Miravalle defending the theory. However, just as we see no positive agreement on several other aspects of the Virgin’s life (Did she die or not before she was taken up to heaven? If she was exempt from pain during Jesus’ birth and/or death at the end of her life on earth, how is it that the Church affirms dogmatically that she was comp | | |
