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abbycat
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 122 |
| First Name: | abby | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-Denomational Charismatic, Lutheran |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 12:55 pm |
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Good morning ... well, little did I think when I signed on here this morning that I would be offering anything, but here I am. EB's post about Mary brought me to my own thinking about prayer, praying to Jesus, praying to Mary, etc. This is probably going to sound juvenile and from an obvious Protestant, but here goes .... A Catholic friend told me several years ago (and I do not know how accurate this is), that the practice of praying to Mary was initially begun many, many years ago when women were not treated by men with any respect or consideration; thus, it gave the women difficulty in trying to relate to Jesus, in trying to pray to Jesus. Thus the practice of praying to Mary was instituted .. it helped these women to have a female in mind and heart when they prayed and poured their hearts out. Like I said, I don't know if this is accurate or not.
Now, to my own situation .... I won't go into it again, but my entire life has been filled with abuse of every sort, a lot of it from males whom I was to trust - father, uncle, x-husband (after 40 year marriage). I never really thought about it much that I had difficulty praying to Jesus. As I've read this forum the passed few months, I decided to see if praying to Mary "worked" for me ... if it seemed to be more heart-felt, more "safe," as it were. Well, as I walk my faith walk and my walk of emotional healing, I do find that praying/talking to Mary is easier. Many of the things which hurt the most are so deep, so personal, so horribly painful, that to be able to share them with the truly Godly Woman - the Mother of our Lord - well, it's so much easier to do. So many of the things which cry out from my heart are embarrassing just to think about, let alone to say ... and it is much more comforting to be able to go to Mary, who I know will speak with Jesus on my behalf.
I don't know if this is "Catholic" thinking or not, or if it's even Scriptural in any belief system ... Catholic or Protestant ... all I know is it helps me in my sometimes painful journey.
God bless you all,
abby
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<*)))><
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 05:38 pm |
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What you have said is very "Catholic."
I have the opposite problem, I relate poorly to Mary since I never had a role model of a caring mother figure. I relate best to Mary as sort of a Church functionary. She puts up with it of course.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 06:16 pm |
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I don't see anything "unCatholic" at all in what you write, Abby. God meets people where they are at. God knows that it is difficult for some people to relate to God as a "father" figure, based on painful personal experience (in fact, I wrote a paper once about how it has been documented that many atheists had lousy relationships with their fathers, and so rejected God as a result).
I doubt that this is how asking Mary to pray for us began, however. It comes from the notion of the communion of saints. All the saints in heaven are more alive and aware than we are, and they have been perfected. They care deeply about us, pray for us, and can present our petitions to God.
Mary, as the Immaculate Mother of God is the most exalted creature who ever lived. She is in a unique position to ask her Son to give us aid, comfort, or grace. There is even an analogy to the Queen Mother position in ancient Israel (my friend Steve Ray has written some great material about that).
Also, we have the Scripture about "the prayer of a righteous man avails much" (James 5:16). Mary was without sin even while on the earth, so it is perfectly biblical and natural (and smart!) to ask for her intercession, because it has more power than our own does. It makes perfect spiritual sense.
Protestants often recognize the power of a more righteous person praying. That's why they will ask pastors or famous and respected figures like Billy Graham to pray for them. They understand this principle.
The only difference is that we say that saints in heaven also pray for us and can therefore, be asked to pray. They are outside of time, with God in heaven, and so they have "time" to hear our petitions. Even Martin Luther recognized the first thing:
In the Smalcald Articles: part of the Lutheran Confessions, written in 1537, he stated:
Although angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ himself also does), and although saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, do likewise, it does not follow that we should invoke angels and saints.
(Part II, Article II; The Book of Concord, translated and edited by by Theodore G. Tappert, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, 297)
Luther (as we see) rejected asking these saints to pray for us. This is illogical, since we know that saints are aware of earthly events, based on Hebrews 12:1, frequent indications in the book of Revelation, and other biblical passages.
If they are aware of what is going on, and can interact with our thoughts, just as angels can, and have love, then it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that we can ask for their intercession.
Think, for example of the Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah appeared and talked to Jesus. Theoretically, they could have been asked by the disciples to pray for them or for some cause. That would have been an example of our asking "dead" people to pray. Nothing in the Bible would prevent them from saying "yes."
Many Protestants do not grasp these things, and for some reason feel compelled to collapse every such instance into the "occult" or necromancy or having a seance: contacting the dead. The two things are completely different (see my explanation as to why that is).
I should clarify, too, that when we ask Mary to "help" us, we mean by her power of intercession. She can't grant us things in and of herself, but only by virtue of the graces given to her by God. She is God's instrument or agent, just as any creature is, but in her exalted position as the Mother of God, she is the best possible creature we can ask to pray for us. Many have greatly misunderstood the flowery language of Marian devotion: as if Mary herself were the source of the blessings and graces received. Not true. God is that, and this is Catholic teaching.
My favorite citation along these lines comes from Lutheran sociologist Peter Berger:
Protestantism may be described in terms of an immense shrinkage in the scope of the sacred in reality . . . The sacramental apparatus is reduced to a minimum and, even there, divested of its more numinous qualities. The miracle of the mass disappears altogether . . . Protestantism ceased praying for the dead . . . [and] divested itself as much as possible from the three most ancient and most powerful concomitants of the sacred - mystery, miracle, and magic . . . The Protestant believer no longer lives in a world ongoingly penetrated by sacred beings and forces. Reality is polarized between a radically transcendent divinity and a radically 'fallen' humanity that, 'ipso facto,' is devoid of sacred qualities . . .
The Catholic lives in a world in which the sacred is mediated to him through a variety of channels - the sacraments . . . intercession of the saints . . . a vast continuity of being between the seen and the unseen. Protestantism abolished most of these mediations. It broke the continuity, cut the umbilical cord between heaven and earth, . . .
(The Sacred Canopy, Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1967, pp. 111-113)
Last edited on Mon Apr 28th, 2008 06:21 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 660 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 06:46 pm |
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abbycat wrote: I don't know if this is "Catholic" thinking or not, or if it's even Scriptural in any belief system ... Catholic or Protestant ... all I know is it helps me in my sometimes painful journey.
God bless you all,
abby
IMO, this is what prayer is. It eases our pain and helps us along on our journey to God. 
Ali
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