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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1666 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 12:08 am |
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Rembrandt, The Apostle Paul, c. 1657
This comes from a discussion on my blog, with regular contributor Ken Temple: a Baptist pastor. His words will be in blue. The title and some of my humorous remarks are, of course, tongue-in-cheek and "turning-the-tables" or reductio ad absurdum rhetoric.
* * * * *
Ken wrote, citing Catholics (dunno who, though, because he provided no primary documentation):
The Flowery language of praise in prayer is wrong and she is made too much of and exalted beyond what the Scriptures say. Praying to Mary is much more than just "asking her to pray for us":
Prayer: O Mary, no one receives any favor except through you. Help me to ask you each day for the graces I need to remain faithful in my state of life."
O Mary, your holy name is great and brings us salvation. Let me strive to speak it with true love, boundless joy, and complete confidence."
O Mary, you are our Mother and our Teacher, instructing us in how to live. Help me to heed your inspirations and follow your Divine Son more closely.
pp. 98-99 Mary Day by Day, 1987 Catholic Book Publishing, Nihil Obstat: Daniel V. Flynn . . . Imprimatur: Patrick J. Sheridan, D.D. Vicar General, Archdiocese of NY.
"Mary brings salvation!" What more evidence do we need of exalting her above the Lord and only Savior, Jesus Christ? All of these facts and this blasphemous statement and prayer alone should keep any thinking Evangelical from being duped into converting to Rome by the tricks of always raising doubt and skepticism as to how do we know for sure who are in the right church, historical church, Newman's "to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant" arguments.
Very well, then, Ken. Great! You have succeeded in proving that the Bible and St. Paul both are blasphemous and exalt the Apostle Paul above Our Lord Jesus, since we have these passages in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 9:22 (RSV) I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[Paul "saves" other people, thus clearly placing himself above God, and blaspheming, right, Ken?]
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
[Good grief! What blasphemy! After his own outrageous claims, St. Paul now thinks that Timothy can save himself (the Pelagian heresy) and those who hear him. Doesn't he know that only God can save??!!!]
Philippians 2:12b-13 . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
[Paul again blasphemously teaches Pelagianism, or works-salvation. Folks are taking the place of God by working out their own salvation???!!!! If someone says that God is mentioned in the second part, the Calvinist "monergist" still has to explain how a human being can participate at all in what only God can do (according go the monergist)]
2 Corinthians 4:15 For it [his many sufferings: 4:8-12,17] is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
Ephesians 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you...
Ephesians 4:29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
[Paul distributes divine grace, just as we believe Mary does, and teaches that others can do the same]
St. Peter also joins in this folly of teaching that Christians can distribute divine grace to each other:
1 Peter 4:8b-10 . . . love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another. As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace.
So much for papal infallibility, huh???
Even the angels help to give grace:
Revelation 1:4-5a John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ . . .
[it was nice of John to add in Jesus Christ at the end, along with his own and the angels' giving of grace, just so we'll remember that there is but one mediator of God's grace. Not a lot of "monergism" there, I reckon . . .]
In fact, Paul is so gung-ho on the notion of his distributing grace to folks, that he mentions this at the beginning of practically every epistle that he wrote. I wrote in another paper of mine:
Grace, however, is also referred to in Scripture as in some sense "quantifiable". Lutherans and Protestants in general try to deny this; they usually view grace as simply "God's favor"; that which saves one, in a non-quantifiable sense (as in, e.g., Rom 6:14; Eph 2:8-10). The biblical usage is more complex and nuanced than that, . . . [many examples given]
In fact, it can be plausibly argued, that when Paul and others use the common greeting of "grace to you" (e.g., Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 1:2; Col 1:2; 1 Thess 1:1; 2 Thess 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Rev 1:4) it is in the same quantifiable sense: i.e., "may God give you more grace." It doesn't make sense if it is intended only in the broad Protestant meaning (that we agree with as far as it goes) of "you are saved by grace alone".
Why wish, after all, that someone should have or receive what they already clearly possess? If "grace" only means "the free favor by which we are saved" then the Christians to whom Paul is writing his epistles already have this grace (since Protestants believe in a past salvation that is already accomplished). So why would Paul say "grace to you"? It would be like telling a man who has a daughter "I wish you the blessing of a daughter from God" or a man with a nice mansion: "best wishes to you for a nice mansion." That makes no sense. Rather, it seems fairly clear, I think, that st. Paul is stating that he hopes and prays that his readers will receive more grace from God, as in the sense of 2 Peter 3:18, Ephesians 4:7, James 4:6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:2, etc. Good work, Ken! It's not every day that a Baptist pastor proves by his own words that the Apostle Paul is a blasphemer (along with -- as a special bonus -- John, Peter, and Timothy) . . .
Related Reading:
Does St. Alphonsus de Liguori, in The Glories of Mary, Teach That Mary is "Above God" and Can "Manipulate God"? (Corrections of Protestant Misunderstandings of Catholic Mariology) (vs. Len Lisenbee)
A Biblical and Theological Primer on Mary Mediatrix
Human, Pauline, and Marian Distribution of Divine Graces: Not an "Unbiblical" Notion After All?
Does Mary's Role as Mediatrix Contradict Jesus Christ as the Sole Mediator? / Response to a Catholic Critic
Dialogue on the Biblical Analogies to the Concept of Mary Mediatrix (vs. Robert Bowman)
Mary as Mediatrix: The Patristic, Medieval, and Early Orthodox Evidence
Treatise on the Queenship of Mary, "Queen Mother", and the Assumption (Steve Ray)
The Imitation of Mary
Is Mary Worshiped by Catholics? (The Latria / Dulia Distinction)
Did Jesus Renounce Marian Veneration? (Lk 11:27-28)
Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 12:10 am by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 786 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 12:34 am |
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Did he respond?? Can we hear 'the REST of the story'???
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1666 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 01:42 am |
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Not yet. He's a pretty "vocal" guy, though, so I'm sure I'll hear something back. I predict that he'll either:
1) misunderstand the dry humor
and/or
2) not grasp the very serious theological argument underneath or behind the humor. He doesn't seem to be able to think out of the box that he is in (Reformed Baptist and almost but not quite anti-Catholic).
To see his response, you can go right to my combox for this post.
Hey; I see that he has made two responses already (as I write), and #2 above is the description of his reply (as predicted). Many Protestants, I find (especially evangelicals), have a dim understanding of the use of analogies in argument, which is frustrating to me to no end, since it is one of my favorite persuasive techniques (along with reductio ad absurdum). I used both in this post, so it was almost guaranteed to not be understood. So this will go nowhere with him (I know from much past experience), but perhaps others can benefit from it.
I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm just stating strong trends and facts from my long experience in debating theology on the Internet and elsewhere, for now 27 years. A lot of the blame, I think, has to be attributed to poor teaching in schools (logic, philosophy), and a lack of proper role models in our society (and, sadly, often in our families, too: such as the one I grew up in) for how to interact with opposing positions.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 786 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 04:38 am |
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Dave, I so admire folks like you who can answer folks like him. I guess we're all at different levels. I can work at the grammar school level. You guys are up in grad school. I'd read his rebuttals and feel pretty stumped, then I'd read your response and think, "Oh, YAH! Great point!"
Too bad he seems to have given up.
I wonder if he praises his kids....
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 12:38 pm |
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Before I head out to help my Baptist friends sort out the recyclable bottles and cans for the nickle money we use for the food pantry, I'll round 'em all up and we'll pray directly to Mary Muslim style with prayer rugs and so forth. Anyone who doesn't will get what the defenders of Constantinople got:
The same kind of axe I think used for Charles I, St. Thomas More and a few other notables, too. Sharpened by good Protestants, no less.
With apologies to actor Robert Duvall, I love the smell of blasphemy in the morning ... it reminds me of victory.
And with that as my first contribution this a.m., I'll head off and show 'em what people with supposedly fallible notions that they belong to a infallible church that's not a sect and guided by an infallible leader can do, even if this fallible follower of that infallible leader is a complete buyer-into-full-blown-blasphemy.
But St. Paul as a "blasphemer" -- hmmm, that's almost like saying to the protestants that their rival "founder" of Christianity was fallible.
So now, with the theme from Wagner's Die Walkire (from Apocalypse Now) I ride off to do battle ... for our Blessed Mother's children in need of food, sustenance and love.
Dave --- where the heck do you find guys like this Rev. Temple?
[Or are these some ministers who knew you when you were Protestant and they're coming back to get you like Sen. Barry O'Blarney's former and finally "diss'd" minister, the Rev. Wrong for dissing him a month ago?]Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 12:39 pm by Steven Barrett
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1666 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 05:57 pm |
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Dave --- where the heck do you find guys like this Rev. Temple?
He has been a regular on my blog for some time. He's a nice man, generally cordial, he has a good sense of humor, and is a very dedicated pastor and missionary, and I respect all that. But he is thoroughly Baptist and quasi-anti-Catholic, and can't be convinced of anything. His value on my blog is pedagogical. We can show how such arguments (coming from him) can be effectively answered by a Catholic. Here are some of my further replies (his words in italics):
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Just one question for you at this time (and one rather central to the post). You wrote:
God would use him as an instrument that leads to salvation; but only Christ actually saves.
Okay, now how is that different from saying that Mary can "bring" salvation: the very thing that you described as "exalting her above the Lord and only Savior, Jesus Christ" and "blasphemous"?
How is saying that so-and-so "brings" something essentially different from saying that so-and-so is an "instrument"? I could say, for example, that this computer monitor brings me the picture and data that enables me to reply in this very combox, or I could say that the monitor was the instrument to do that. What's the difference?
The result, of course, is precisely as I argued: it is a reductio ad absurdum, bringing you to the horns of a dilemma: either Paul is a blasphemer, like you say Catholics are, or you are wrong (as shown by almost exact analogy) and must give up your charge.
Which will it be? But you haven't weakened or defeated my argument in the least. It stands every bit as strong as it was.
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so your point is the one is that falls flat.
Not at all. I've been through this a dozen times, and the Protestant never succeeds in proving that we "worship" Mary. You are far more than adequately informed to not keep making dumb statements like this.
You could start by kindly providing me with primary information about who even made these comments you object to, so I can look up the context, if possible. The book is not searchable on Google. One is possibly from St. Germanus.
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the "Mary, Day by Day" book is exalting her too much because it speaks directly to her and exalts her not just as "means" but as source.
That follows neither logically nor grammatically (let alone theologically). This is rather elementary. I could ask my 6 yo daughter, e.g., to "give me water." Now, if she does so, is she the source of the water?
She is in terms of my immediate circumstance, one could say. I'm painting the garage (as I did last weekend) and she brings me a cup, so she is the source in the sense that she is the cause for me now having a glass of water in my hand (and soon, my belly).
But is she the ultimate source? Of course she is not. The source goes back to the kitchen sink (the instrument in my house), and then water pipes (another instrument, or conduit), and then to the local water department (yet another instrument in the whole process), and then to one of the local lakes (possibly Lake Erie), which is replenished through the natural forces of emptying rivers, evaporation, condensation, and rain.
So according to your convoluted reasoning, if I say that Mary "brings me salvation" or I ask her to bring it to me, then I must necessarily mean that she is the source of that salvation, as if she were God. You seem constitutionally unable to comprehend any other scenario, even when it is right in front of your face.
But this doesn't follow! I showed how it does not, even biblically (with explicit examples that you have not overcome at all). Now I have shown it again by simple logic and another analogy.
For a Catholic to refer to Mary "bringing" salvation is obviously an instance of her interceding to bring it about, which we all do. Have you never prayed for a person's salvation, for heaven's sake? No pun intended . . . Why can't Mary do so? Because she is unconscious? What, do you believe in soul sleep like Luther and the SDA and JWs do?
She is alive and very much concerned about us on the earth. She can pray for us and her prayers have unimaginable power because of her special role as Mother of God.
There is nothing in the least unbiblical about any of this. Mary can help to bring the salvation to us that always, necessarily comes from God, brought about by the incarnation and the cross, just as we all do as soon as we pray for someone or share the gospel with them, or explain something in the Bible, or encourage them to go to Church or to pray or read the Bible.
Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 05:59 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 30th, 2008 11:44 pm |
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 Wouldn't you just love to be at the Pearly Gates when St. Peter takes his 15 minutes break and Mary fills in just when all these Mary doubters, and "Bible Christians" find themselves facing her sitting behind the Fisherman's desk.
They're gonna envy Jake and Elmo Blues Brothers!
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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