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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2446 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 10:22 pm |
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My correspondent's exact words will be paraphrased, not cited. Her "words" will be in blue.
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What exactly is worship, according to Catholics? I know that you say you worship only God, but how is this defined? How do you distinguish between worshiping God and honoring saints? I've read a little about latria and dulia and hyperdulia, but to me it is almost like talking out of both sides of your mouth and doing something a Christian should know is wrong.
Worship is adoration: praise and thanksgiving to God our Creator and Lord and savior. No creature is like Him. No creature can be worshiped because that would be idolatry (putting a creature in the place of God). Catholics venerate the saints, which means giving them honor and praising the work that God has done through them, as vessels. Saints reflect the glory of God like the moon reflects the light of the sun. Praising a masterpiece of painting is not praise of oil and canvas, but of the painter who created it. Veneration of saints has a biblical basis.
Some relevant papers of mine:
The Communion of Saints: Biblical Overview
Reflections on the Communion of Saints
Dialogue on Objections to the Communion of Saints
Witnesses of Hebrews 12:1
"Why Do Catholics 'Pray to Mary'?" (+ Discussion)
Intercession and Invocation of the Saints: How is it Different From Magic?
Exposition on the Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, and Idolatry
Biblical Evidence (Suggested by Protestants Like Jonathan Edwards) For Saints in Heaven Being Aware of Earthly Events (+ Discussion)
Dead Saints: Are They Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding for Us?
Dialogue on Dead Saints (Are They Playing Harps on Clouds or Interceding for Us?)
The Imitation of Mary
Is Mary Worshiped by Catholics? (The Latria / Dulia Distinction)
Did Jesus Renounce Marian Veneration? (Lk 11:27-28)How is it proper to pray both to God and to a saint? How do you define prayer?
If by "praying to a saint" you mean "asking the saint to grant a request by his/her own power," then that is not what Catholics mean. What we mean by it is "asking a saint to intercede with God for a request. God answers in His power". The principle is simple, and biblical. "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (James 5:16; RSV). Saints are still alive in heaven. They care about those of us on earth. They observe us. By the power of God and being out of time, they can hear our prayer requests, or requests for their intercession. All of this has biblical support (see my papers above). Prayer is not worship. I'm not worshiping God if I ask him to heal my wife. I'm not worshiping a saint if I ask him to ask God to heal my wife. It's simply the care and concern that the Body of Christ has for other members. Death doesn't cause that to come to an end, because God transcends the power of death and physical separation.
How do you differentiate between veneration of Mary and worship?
Because we are honoring her for being obedient to God and following His will. We are praising the artist (God) for the masterpiece (Mary). Everything Mary is, is because of God's grace. She was obedient to God, though, and we are venerating her for that, too, because it is a wonderful testimony and example for us to follow. It wasn't possible for Jesus to sin, but it was possible for Mary to sin. She chose not to (by God's grace, but she still chose). And so we honor her for that. That's not idolatry; it is acknowledgment of holiness and the work of God in His creatures.
Can we worship God and do the same to a saint and act as if it is okay just because we give them different descriptive terms?
No. I've explained the essential difference between the two things.
We Protestants pray to God only.
But you ask others to pray for you, and that is what Catholics are doing with the saints, and Mary above all, because she was the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus. Protestants understand James 5:16, because they will ask perceived righteous persons to pray for them (like, say, Billy Graham). Again: we don't think that the saints are the source of the answered prayer. They are aids for us to get to God and to have more of an expectation for an answered prayer, because we have enlisted a holy person to help us in our request (James 5:16).
How can you believe in a succession of popes since so many have been terrible sinners?
It's not based on sinlessness (that's called impeccability) but on office. We believe that God protects the Church from teaching error, by His power (not the power of sinful men). How is this possible? It's entirely possible because God is God and can accomplish whatever He wants. Secondly, it has already happened in greater measure in the inspired Scripture, which was written by sinful men like Moses, David, Paul, and Peter (murderers, adulterers, and people who would deny knowing Jesus). Yet it is inspired and infallible. Likewise, God uses sinful men as bishops and popes and protects the faithful from receiving false teaching.
Titus 1:7-9 For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself, upright, holy, and self-controlled; he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it. If the pope is the head of all the bishops, wouldn't he also have to (above all) be of this high level of character?
Most of them have been, especially in the last 150-200 years. This is the ideal, but you and I know full well that people don't always live up to biblical standards (we need only look at ourselves, for starters). We see the tension between the ideal and the real, in, for example, 1 John 1:6-10:
1 John 1:6-7 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
(ideal: no sin)
1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(all have sin, that needs to be confessed and cleansed; to deny one's sin is to be a liar) Thus, there have been some bad popes. This is not unexpected, based on Scripture:
Biblical Evidence for Sinners in the Church
Sins and Sinners in the Catholic Church
Sinful Church Leaders
The "Bad Popes": How Many Of 'Em Were There? How "Bad" Were They? (+ Discussion) Of what purpose is a bad pope who is still a true pope? You simply accept that and say that God has His reasons?
Yes, because He used King David and made an everlasting covenant with Him and made Jesus His descendant, even though David was an adulterer and murderer. Jesus called Judas to be His disciple, and Judas was called both a disciple and "elect." The Bible shows how a successor was chosen when Judas killed himself. Jesus made Peter the leader of the Church, knowing that he would deny him three times. See:
The Visible, Hierarchical, Apostolic Church
Biblical Evidence for a Visible (Not Invisible) Church (+ Discussion)
Biblical Evidence For the Sacrament of Holy Orders (Ordination)
The Biblical Evidence for Priests
Apostles Can Become Bishops (Apostolic Succession)
Bishops in the New Testament and the Early Church I'm not trying to be contentious; I really want to understand these things. I feel somewhat led to the Catholic Church. I have heard that I must accept all Catholic teachings to do so.
That's right, because it is a teaching passed down from the apostles. One doesn't pick and choose and decide what they will accept, but rather, decide in faith that God has one true Church that He has protected all these centuries. God can do it. He has enough power to do that!
I have hope that I can better understand these things if they are explained to me. I don't feel like I am a Protestant any longer. I think they have many of their own problems and have not figured everything out themselves.
I hope my answers have been helpful to you. God bless you as you consider where God might be leading you. Pray, pray, pray! The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, as the Bible says.
Yours in Christ,
DaveLast edited on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 10:27 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 12:35 pm |
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Dave, this was one of my sticking points coming into the Church. If this is truly God's church, why did He let such evil men run it? How could He condone the Inquisitions and the Holy Wars and all the atrocious acts committed in His name?
Of course you have to take it all in context and have a good dose of history to get a fuller understanding of the how's and why's. And never forget that popes are human, too. Puny little men who sin just like the rest of us, and that God does the best with what he has to work with at the time. That must be so hard for him, lol. The continual putting up with us. That really is love.
Ali
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 01:04 pm |
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Ali wrote: And never forget that popes are human, too.
As are the cardinals who choose them. If the cardinals in conclave do not listen to the Spirit, bad popes result. The key is that while God allows the election of bad popes, he has never allowed them to do permanent damage to his Church, such as by the declaration of bad doctrine.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2446 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 05:01 pm |
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The sin argument doesn't really prove anything. The problem with it is very simple:
All human beings are sinners (excepting Mary, of course).
Therefore, all Christian communions comprised of human beings will have sin present in them.
Some Protestants try, therefore, to play the game that their new little sect is holy and pure, unlike everyone else. That never works. History attests to that. It's not reality.
Even the myth that the early Protestants as a whole were particularly holy, over against the invariably wicked, nefarious, evil Catholics, has to die a thousand deaths in light of the historical facts. I have a whole web page about it:
Protestantism: Historic Persecution and Intolerance
I'm not trying to "bash" Protestants there. All I'm doing is removing this objection, by showing that it (surprise!) applies to Protestants, too. In other words, if our criterion for joining a Christian group is that it has no sin in its history and members, then we won't be able to join any group. But the Bible clearly enjoins us to be part of the Body of Christ; in fellowship with others in the Church. So something has to give: either the Church has sinners in it or we have to give up the notion of a communal body of Christians.
The latter is not allowed in the Bible, but the former is often indicated in the Bible.
Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 05:02 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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