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ChildofGod Member

| Joined: | Sat Jul 12th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 215 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian in the Wilderness |
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Posted: Sat Nov 8th, 2008 08:29 pm |
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Dave A.,
Do you know what ECF's believed with regard to the Communion of Saints? I'm not speaking here specifically of Mary, but rather the teaching of the Church that we can petition those saints who have gone on before us (and that would include Mary) to pray with and for us.
I would also like to refute Protestants' objections to the Catholic teaching on the Communion of Saints for the reason that it is considered "worship" and no one should receive worship but God alone.
I look forward to your comments.
Darlene
BTW, could you give some direct quotes from ECF's along with any papers you have written?
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2446 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Tue Nov 11th, 2008 08:13 pm |
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Hi Darlene,
Glad to help out.
My book on the Church Fathers contains 23 pages on the topic. You can purchase it for as low as $3.00 as a PDF or $1.67 as part of my package deal of 15 e-books for $25. I do have to make a living . . .
But here is some stuff for free:
View of two Protestant church historians:
Protestant historians J.N.D. Kelly and Philip Schaff provide an overview of what the early Church believed about the saints:
A phenomenon of great significance in the patristic period was the rise and gradual development of veneration for the saints, more particularly for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
. . . Earliest in the field was the cult of martyrs . . . At first it took the form of the reverent preservation of their relics and the annual celebration of their ‘birthday’. From this it was a short step, since they were now with Christ in glory, to seekig their help and prayers, and in the third century evidence for the belief in their intercessory power accumulates. . . . By the middle of the same [4th] century, according to Cyril of Jerusalem, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles and martyrs were commemorated in the liturgy ‘so that by their prayers and intercessions God may receive our supplications’.
(J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, San Francisco: Harper & Row, fifth revised edition, 1978, 490)
In the numerous memorial discourses of the fathers, the martyrs are loaded with eulogies, addressed as present, and besought for their protection. The universal tone of those productions is offensive to the Protestant taste, and can hardly be reconciled with evangelical ideas of the exclusive and all-sufficient mediation of Christ and of justification by pure grace without the merit of works. . . . The best church fathers, too, never separated the merits of the saints from the merits of Christ, but considered the former as flowing out of the latter.
(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity: A.D. 311-600, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1974, from the revised fifth edition of 1910. chapter VII, section 84, 438)
Quotes from the Fathers:
Catholic Answers: The Intercession of the Saints:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
Joe Gallegos: Veneration and Invocation of the Saints:
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/saints.htm
Many papers on this topic and related ones can be found on my web page: Saints, Purgatory, and Penance.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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