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Roaming Catholic
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| Joined: | Fri Feb 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | St. Catharines, Ontario Canada |
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| First Name: | Tim | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised RC, Pentecostal, Baptist, Mennonite, Anglican, Evangelical-Missionary |
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 12:21 pm |
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I struggle with this and don't know what to make of it. I hear or read Catholics make comments or prayers to Mary that seem over the top. I can understand the idea of asking Mary to intercede for us, but sometimes the praise and prayers given to her seem to take the place of God. Things like 'Mary saves us' or when prayer is directed to her saying we give our heart to Mary or asking Mary to do whatever the request is - as though she herself has the power to grant our request. In the past I've put this down to Marian devotion gone wrong, but then I've also read Catholic explanations for these types of prayers or praise along the lines of 'well, that's not really what we mean' - to which I tend to respond 'then say or pray what you mean' - speak & say according to your actual theology. To do otherwise seems like mental gymnastics, or dancing around the issue semantically - and not quite honest. I feel like it's misleading to pray or praise Mary in terms that in a non-Catholic's mind should be reserved for God alone.
This is especially difficult when the comments are from Pope Benedict XVI: "We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart." It almost seems to undermine the whole persuasive argument for the fullness of truth being found in the Catholic Church. This is a huge stumbling block to me and the last few days has felt like a complete roadblock on the journey I've been on back towards the Catholic faith. I know this may sound angry, but I need some good answers & honesty without someone dancing around this issue with words. Thanks.
Tim
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kersca
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| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 01:07 pm |
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First things first Tim, nice canoe. I have a couple of strip built kayaks. Built them about 7 years ago and still paddling strong. Have been considering making a couple of river kayaks (mine are sea Kayaks) but time and money are tight.
As far as Mary is concerned. Sometimes it is a difficult topic to sift through. There is a lot of confusion among well intentioned Catholics that crosees the line. Some people, quite unintentionally, bring marian devotion tooo close to idolatry. However, the same can be true of almost any doctrine, Catholic or not. We all know people who will become so focused on one aspect of the gospel that they become near heretical. So, don't judge Matian doctrines by the abberations. Hech, that's like saying the gospel must be wrong b/c the Mormons have obviously perverted it. That is unfair. If we equate confused christians to be the example rather than the rule we are being unfair.
Adam
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lifetone
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| Location: | Harrisburg, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 03:48 pm |
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Hi Tim,
I'll try hard not to dance but for me this is a hugely profound subject that has to do with not just Mary - that particular human being - but how we look at all people. And it's not that I'm trying to avoid the issue but it is a profound issue which takes some thought.
We do need to step back and assess not only what people are saying but what we are thinking when we hear people say certain things.
For example, a friend while attacking my new allegiance to the Pope once observed how even the liberal media liked the former Pope. Someone on the news called him "truly Christ on earth."
Now, with his point of view, with the RC is guilty of idolatry glasses on this meant one thing, that we worship the pope as God. To me, and I think most rational people this meant something else, that the former pope (John Paul II) had truly lived out the mandate we all have to be Jesus in the world.
After all, we all want to be Jesus to the world - in a sense.
There are people who we all admire, or maybe we would like to be that person who like Paul can truly say to someone imitate me. Be like me. May we all grow closer to *your* heart - Mary or Tim, if your heart is truly good and doing God's will.
We can read this to mean I am equating you - or Mary - with God, in a sense which *obviously* (I hope) we are not. Some, I'm sure, do.
I really get what you're saying because I take the Lord extremely seriously. And yet as God He has chosen to create man in His image, to save us and to work through us - without actually taking away our free will and being us.
That is an important issue and if you think that being Catholic would in any way detract from His glory then He would not want you to do so without clear conscience.
At the same time, their problems has always been my problem. How to work for salvation, how to see God at work through others while understanding He alone is God. And I honestly have seen no better solution to this problem than the one Jesus Himself instituted by instituting the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist - His Body and Blood.
And by looking at how Catholics deal with this I can see how they excel (in their teaching) and often fall dreadfully short in practice. But it's still a lot better than nothing. Because in that I see most perfectly how it is that God is not simply an idea in my head or strictly defined by negation, but really and truly present on earth in some manner - and that is better than nothing and also helps to show by contrast the difference between the devotion to Him and the lesser devotion to those who help point the way to Him - whether Mary or other canonized saints or people I know in real life.
Hope this helps. I pray God will lead you to His truth. I'm just kind of rephrasing what it says in the Catechism on this subject, so probably saying the same thing you've heard a hundred times.
But, I'm absolutely dead serious before God who is the only being in the entire universe who truly terrifies me  for reasons only He truly understands. I may pray to become more like a certain person I admire but NO ONE NO ONE ever takes His place in my life. And from that perspective I can see what the pope might have meant in that quote you used - and not be in any way "idolizing" Mary. "from Pope Benedict XVI: "We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart." To her Immaculate Heart, committed to the Father, in love. May she have pity and continue to pray and intercede - she no doubt will anyway but it is nice to be asked and appreciated. I do agree with the Pope and with my Church that we owe much to her prayer and intercession - and her acceptance of the duty God gave her in bearing His only Son.
Well, hope that helps. Sorry if this sounds like more dancing but I really do take this extremely seriously - and that's before I ever became Catholic and for me being Catholic has been an asset as opposed to a liability to my devotion to Him and Him alone. And I'm saying that 100% that He's listening and telling me to stop rambling now probably. Because I do tend to talk a lot. PS - I love Jesus a lot, more than anyone else. Don't tell Him I said that though. ;-)
Anne
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 03:52 pm |
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Tim,
Relax about Mary. Most of the people buying into the latest "urban legend" to come out of Vatican City about Our Lord's Blessed Mother being secretly transformed into a fourth person in a Three Man Trinity  are those ever naive but die-hard anti-Catholic and anti-(Vatican/Curial) Magisterial Authority critical theologians who are dumbly naive enough to believe that anybody working in the Vatican would be even dumber to try it. After these intellectuals, you have their baaaaaahhhiiiiiii sheeple. Keep going away from the inner realm of Catholic Truth about Mary you'll start finding yourself in Jack Chick Land.
We don't have to go there, do we?
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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lifetone
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 04:01 pm |
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Steve... If you haven't already one day you have to watch this movie called Serenity. There is this scene in it that you brought to mind. I'm trying so hard to be deep and intellectual and then you ... make me laugh. So mean. Anyway ... it's snowing out. It's Friday. I should probably work anyway on documenting this process no one actually wants to see documented because that might mean that their duties in regard to it become defined.
Yes, what you said too. Darn you. I'll Amen that as well kind of - maybe a little.
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Roaming Catholic
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| Location: | St. Catharines, Ontario Canada |
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| First Name: | Tim | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised RC, Pentecostal, Baptist, Mennonite, Anglican, Evangelical-Missionary |
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 12:16 am |
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Thanks for the gracious replies. It's reassuring to at least feel understood - especially by those who have wrestled with the same issues and come to terms with them. I know from the parish I've been attending that Catholics aren't into idolatry or anything, and when I'm there I often feel God's presence - which on an intuitive level is also reassuring. I'm not sure how to proceed to come to terms with this issue, but I appreciate the encouragement from those who have been there before. Thanks!
Tim
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 12:31 am |
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Roaming Catholic wrote:
I'm not sure how to proceed to come to terms with this issue, but I appreciate the encouragement from those who have been there before. Thanks!
Tim
Tim, perhaps you could find out (one, two, three . . .) exactly what it is about Mary that the Catholic Church will require you to profess upon entering. I believe you will find the actual teachings (when seen in the CCC) are not the hurdle you may have imagined. All the poetry, drama, devotion, tradition, legend, chivalry, and overstatement one encounters among various members of the faithful can be an impossibility for some inquirers, while the actual required beliefs are less daunting and can more easily be taken on faith, even though they may sound strange.
If you can handle the required teachings, don't worry about the rest. Believe what the Church requires you to believe, then forge your own relationship with the Blessed Mother after you enter the Church. Like any relationship it takes time and attention. You'll be fine.
God bless,
Becky
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:36 am |
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God bless you Tim. I have had similar feelings as yours when considering Mary. I have read prayers (i.e. requests) involking the intercession of Mary that I thought were about Jesus. That is, I thought they were directed towards divine worship of Mary and were confusing Jesus and Mary. This is particularly evident in many prayers venerating Mary that were written in the 10th to 13th centuries. For a better perspective I recommend you read Dwight Longenecker's book "Mary". The correct Catholic teaching on Mary is explained there. Titles given to Mary, which really upset protestants, such as "Mother of God", Co-redeemer, Mediatrix and Advocate are shown to be warrented in order for Jesus to be who he really was - the God-man. Much of what is seen in catholic veneration of Mary, particularly in third world countries, looks like and might even be worship of Mary by poorly catechised catholic believers practicing what has become "folk religion".
When thinking about some of the abuses that have occurred in catholic veneration of Mary, do not forget to think about the huge heresies and novelties introduced by Luther, Calvin and others in the so-called "reformation" that contradicted 1500 years of the teaching (Tradition) of the catholic faith passed down by the apostles and their successors, the bishops.
Last edited on Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 04:44 am by tedjenczewski
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 05:59 pm |
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Hi Tim,
Good and fair questions. I hit the specific issue you inquire about head on in this paper, and explain the language in context (which is rarely considered by our severe critics):
Does St. Alphonsus de Liguori, in The Glories of Mary, Teach That Mary is "Above God" and Can "Manipulate God"? (Corrections of Protestant Misunderstandings of Catholic Mariology)
Now, to start from scratch (if that is possible) in explaining Catholic Mariology, my own papers that I recommend first to people are the following:
The Imitation of Mary
"All Have Sinned . . . " (Mary?)
I'd be more than happy to address any further questions you might have. I think the main difficulty you are expressing can probably be adequately explained, for the most part, in terms of:
1) Flowery, poetic language that is not intrinsically literal in nature or intent.
2) Interpreting the words in context (especially a Christological context).
3) Taking into account the many less or inadequately educated Catholics who don't understand the fine distinctions in Catholic theology. They aren't helping matters any.
4) Protestants have so minimized and underemphasized Mary and have categorized any devotion to her in terms of rank idolatry, and this has so penetrated the entire Christian community (especially in Protestant-to-the-bone North America), that now virtually any devotion at all can seem to be excessive, because of the stark contrast. We all (bar none) pick up influences from our surroundings.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 07:21 pm |
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Anne,
Sorry to make you laugh so hard, and I'll try not to distract you and everyone else by my attempts to put a little levity which are actually addressed to any body curious eyes who aren't fully familiar with our Forum Culture (for lack of a better way to describe it  .)
Good Heavens, the last thing we want to do is go all out PC, in this case representing Protestant Culture, when it comes to Mary and leave her as many evangelicals would prefer, off in the margins of mind, soul and well, they're not that cold, but hearts as well, 'cept around Christmas.
They do get freaked out when they see our more expressionate devotees to promoting Marian awareness engaging in some of the things Dave properly itemized. Even Catholics can be put off by excessiveness. One time when my wife and I were looking at a new home, we were given an advance tip that the owner was BIG TIME INTO MARY (and our realtor was a devout traditionalist non-anti-Marian Episcopalian by any means, quite respectful indeed, but...) Well, when we saw the house and visited the bedroom, I could quickly see how many Protestants and some Catholics would've been taken aback. Unbelievable is all I could say. My mother, who was a Big Marianist would've been taken by surprise. None of the Marian statutes had any bearing on the house's suitability for purchase, etc., but I was concerned that Ruth would've gotten a misperception due to the extravagance of the displays.
It all comes down to what the Church teaches about Mary, NO MORE, NO LESS. People try to read too much or too little when it comes to Mary and the safest rule of thumb, especially when it comes to Our Mother, is to follow the Church.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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ChildofGod
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 09:07 pm |
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Roaming Catholic wrote: I struggle with this and don't know what to make of it. I hear or read Catholics make comments or prayers to Mary that seem over the top. I can understand the idea of asking Mary to intercede for us, but sometimes the praise and prayers given to her seem to take the place of God. Tim, I fully understand what you are saying. In fact, I won't be dismissive and try to defend actions that are as you say, "over the top." As a non-Catholic who desires to be Catholic one day, I would like to tell you how I respond to this issue of Mary. First, let me say that I do regard Mary as the Mother of God. This doctrinal truth was settled early on in the 4th C. or thereabouts. However, there are certain actions that some Catholics do, and certain prayers that some Catholics say to Mary that I cannot defend and will not do. And to be a Catholic, one does not have to be involved in a Marian procession or pray certain prayers to Mary that seem excessive. Any Catholic has the right not to participate in these things, and even to hold to the opinion, that for them it is excessive. Things like 'Mary saves us' or when prayer is directed to her saying we give our heart to Mary or asking Mary to do whatever the request is - as though she herself has the power to grant our request. In the past I've put this down to Marian devotion gone wrong, but then I've also read Catholic explanations for these types of prayers or praise along the lines of 'well, that's not really what we mean' - to which I tend to respond 'then say or pray what you mean' - speak & say according to your actual theology. To do otherwise seems like mental gymnastics, or dancing around the issue semantically - and not quite honest. I feel like it's misleading to pray or praise Mary in terms that in a non-Catholic's mind should be reserved for God alone.
Again, I understand and can even support your perspective. (as per bolded statement)
This is especially difficult when the comments are from Pope Benedict XVI: "We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart." Do you realize that you do not have to agree with the Pope in all that he does and says? When JPII kissed the Koran, I disagreed with his actions. No matter how much anyone tried to persuade me to the contrary, I could not be convinced that such an action was glorifying to Jesus Christ. However, this does not take away the admiration I have for JPII. Remember, that neither of these two actions are dogmatic statements made about the Catholic faith binding all Catholics and making it necessary to believe in. Also, did you know that even the Pope goes to Confession? Even he does not consider himself to be without sin. Here is another way that I look at this situation. There were times when evil popes, popes who did not live faithful holy lives unto Christ, were in positions of authority. Many of the actions and statements of these popes were scandalous. Faithful Catholics were not expected to support or defend their actions. Now of course the incident you bring up with Benedict is not an action of such an egregious nature. Not at all. The point I am trying to make is that you do not have to feel that if you became Catholic, that you are required to defend all actions and statements of the Pope. If that were the case, I could not consider being Catholic. For as awesome a charge and responsibility it is that the Pope holds, he is not required to be perfect or flawless. This is a huge stumbling block to me and the last few days has felt like a complete roadblock on the journey I've been on back towards the Catholic faith. I know this may sound angry, but I need some good answers & honesty without someone dancing around this issue with words. Thanks.
Tim, as a Protestant, I'm sure you often have believed and even told many people that you have found the truth and that you are following the truth. We know that the truth is found in Christ and He is the Truth. Yet, would you have ever said that you know all of the truth or that all of your theology was perfectly aligned with Holy Scripture? Yet did you ever question whether or not you should continue living for Christ? I would think not. You believed that Christ would lead you and direct you as you continued to trust in Him. Now that you have come to this impasse with regards to the Catholic Church, some things have changed. You still believe that Christ will lead you and direct you as you continue to trust in Him, but you don't know where you can best and most fully live out the Christian faith. You are not expected to defend things that the RCC has done that were wrong, such as the persecutions of non-Catholics in centuries past. Even JPII asked that the Jews would forgive the wrongs done to them by the RCC in centuries past. Wrongs have been committed in the name of Christ within many faith traditions, but this does not take away from the teaching or the truth that Christ is both Savior and Lord, God Incarnate. The Church is the spotless bride of Christ, but those within her on this earth are not yet perfected. So it is that I can look at this prayer of Pope Benedict and have the opinion that I think it is a bit excessive. And that I would not say such a prayer. However, I do not think that because I cannot defend him in this particular incidence, that I must question his faith in Christ. Nor do I think that this takes away from the deposit of faith or Apostolic succession. Christ said that His church would be able to prevail against the gates of hell. An action that you or I may disagree with such as excessive prayer to Mary cannot erase or obliterate the truth of Christ's one and holy apostolic Church. Even when we study the history of the Jewish people under the Old Covenant, we discover that Israel had many wicked leaders. However, the actions of the wicked kings did not change the truth that the Jews were a chosen race by God and worshipped the true and living Creator. Do you think any Jewish believer could be justified in being unfaithful to God because of the wrong actions of some wicked king or prophet?
The moment that we start critiqueing every action of the Pope and requiring him to be perfect, then the same standard must be kept when looking at our pastors. If your pastor did something that you considered wrong and you personally witnessed it, would that tempt you to turn away from your Christian faith? I would think not. So it is that while I can disagree with Pope Benedict's prayer, I cannot discount or deny the truth of the Catholic faith as a whole. When I read the doctrines and teachings of the RCC, I find rich and life-giving truth that cannot be found within Protestantism.
I know I've gone on a bit, but I thought I would explain to you how I have dealt with some of the hurdles on my journey. God bless you and keep you.
Darlene
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 12:49 am |
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| Right on, Darlene. I am reminded of a teaching in the Didache, which was on some of the early father's lists of inspired liturature and was considered by the early church for inclusion in the NT canon. "You shall not make a schism. Rather, you shall make peace among those who are contending." Didache(4,3). Luther's "Reformation" started by protesting abuses within the church, but quickly turned into the promulgation of novel doctrine and finally, schism over issues such as Mary. And so a mockery was made of Jesus great prayer for unity of His visible church.(John 17, 6-26)
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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jp2fan
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 06:07 pm |
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| About the "mary save us' thing, I know that in the orthodox church they are starting to change it to 'Mary help us' because that IS what they (and catholics) mean...I think we should remember that much the prayers and litugies that say that were written LONG ago
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 09:16 pm |
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Let's not get carried away here, with the "save" terminology. To speak of a human being as participating in "saving" others is perfectly biblical:
1 Corinthians 9:22 I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[Paul "saves" other people]
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
[<sarcasm alert> Doesn't Paul know that only God can save??!!!]
Philippians 2:12b-13 . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
[If someone says that God is mentioned in the second part, the Calvinist "monergist" still has to explain how a human being can participate at all in what only God can do (according go the monergist)]
2 Corinthians 4:15 For it [his many sufferings: 4:8-12,17] is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
Ephesians 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you...
Ephesians 4:29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
[Paul distributes divine grace, just as we believe Mary does, and teaches that others can do the same]
St. Peter also joins in this folly of teaching that Christians can distribute divine grace to each other:
1 Peter 4:8b-10 . . . love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another. As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace.
Even the angels help to give grace:
Revelation 1:4-5a John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ . . .
[<sarcasm alert> it was nice of John to add in Jesus Christ at the end, along with his own and the angels' giving of grace, just so we'll remember that there is but one mediator of God's grace. Not a lot of "monergism" there, I reckon . . .]
This is especially difficult when the comments are from Pope Benedict XVI: "We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart."
There is nothing whatever wrong with this prayer, or the Holy Father's reciting of it. It is perfectly orthodox. I would caution young Catholics and those considering the Church against judging high forms of Catholic pious expression. These things are not simple. It takes years to learn to appreciate them and to spiritually "resonate" with them, so to speak. One cannot do that in a few months' time.
Believe me, I'm still learning lots of things all the time, and I've been a Catholic for 18 years, and defend the Church almost on a daily basis. I consider myself to have a fairly strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin, but there are still some prayers that strike me even now as "excessive."
But the difference is that I recognize the limitation in myself, from years or Protestant and secular thinking (32 years, before I converted). I acknowledge that I am insufficiently Catholic, rather than concluding that the Church is insufficiently correct or biblical. It is because my "lens" through which this material is "filtered" is not yet fully Catholic, or without impurities that blur my vision and reception, that I think any of it is excessive, not because it actually is.
It's fine to say that one doesn't fully understand something, but to start judging popes and the Church when one still personally has a great deal to learn about the faith; that is where it becomes wrong, in my opinion, and presumptuous. It requires a lot of humility to admit to ourselves that there are things we don't yet know: that saints and doctors of the Church have pondered and thought about for centuries.
This is one such instance. This is how a Catholic thinks. He or she bows to the superior wisdom of the Church of the Ages and recognizes that it is Holy Mother Church that determines truth and falsehood in the end, not the lone individual, stock-full of many biases and cultural / philosophical / religious (sometimes ethnic) influences hostile to the Church.
I wouldn't expect a brand-new Catholic who is barely starting to understand Mariology in all its fullness, to grasp a prayer like this. It would be like asking a person who just learned their time tables, to comprehend algebra, or calculus, or trigonometry. Does that make any sense?
Mariology and Marian veneration is a very high level of spirituality. That's precisely why millions of Protestants don't engage in it at all. They have jettisoned this whole aspect of Christianity from their faith, and have never learned about it. Every Protestant has to "unlearn" that built-in hostility and then be willing to learn to think in a very different way: a Catholic, traditional way (that is, when closely examined, more deeply and profoundly "biblical" than any form of Protestantism).
The way to deal with this is not to quickly determine that the pope is wrong, or sinful, or that this is proof that Catholicism isn't perfect (like every other option out there). No; it is a time to dig in and do some serious study, to understand why these expressions are used, and why they seem so foreign and "unbiblical" and "excessive" to us (if that is how we feel about it).
There are reasons for these things. We are what we eat. We take in the philosophy of our surroundings. America was a thoroughly Protestant country, and now is increasingly a secular one. American thought is not exactly renowned for its deep understanding of the Catholic worldview. We all deal with this. It's a constant process. Romans 12:2-3 states:
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. For by the grace given to me I bid every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him.
It's like any debate. We shouldn't feel that we can comment authoritatively on the wrongness of some other position (much less in public!) until we have first learned about that thing inside and out, and know the position as well or even better than our "opponents" who hold it.
Now, as to young Catholics and all aspects of Catholic Mariology; sorry, there are a ton of things that have yet to be learned. But if you already know pretty much that the Catholic Church is the One True Church and the fullness of the faith, then I would strongly urge you to be most reluctant to judge her devotions, no matter how difficult it may be for you at this time to completely understand the basis of them.
In this instance, there is a quick judgment upon a holy person who has been deemed to be "Blessed" by Holy Mother Church (and upon the present Holy Father: who is himself an extraordinary theologian: not all popes are). Does anyone really think that his Mariology would be horrendously heretical, seeing that he has been declared "Blessed"? The Church takes painstaking care to make sure everyone who is being considered for sainthood has orthodox views.
Here, we are talking about Blessed Bartolo Longo (see Wikipedia). His writings are used as part of the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary.
You can read the original prayer that the Holy Father recited in an article about it. But be prepared to be jolted yet again if you are not familiar with the most florid expressions of Catholic Marian piety. I reiterate what I stated above: if these things trouble you, it is a time for you to start from scratch and learn the basis of this sort of Marian piety in Catholic spirituality. Resolve to learn, not to judge. That is my advice, for whatever it is worth. The newest person on a sports team does not immediately start judging the actions and decisions and rationales of the coach, does he? Is it not his place to be quiet and to learn a bit before taking on the coach (if he ever does so)?
First of all, like all truly authentic Marian piety, this prayer is not without many references to Jesus Christ, Whose ultimate authority as God is always presupposed and deeply ingrained in the consciousness of Catholics who are also devoted to Mary. When one presupposes something they do not always mention it again and again. Outsiders may misunderstand and think that the assumed thing that is not always mentioned in every other sentence, is therefore, denied, but that doesn't follow, logically, at all. That said, here are some references to Jesus in the prayer:
. . . redeemed through the blood of our sweet Jesus . . .
. . . That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. . . . [four times, recurring in the prayer]
. . . we, . . . are the first who crucify Jesus in our hearts . . .
. . . the testament of our dying Redeemer. And this testament of a God, sealed with the blood of a Man-God, appointed thee our Mother, the Mother of sinners. Thus, as our Mother, thou art our Advocate and our Hope.
. . . yet wound the loving heart of thy Son.
Did not Jesus entrust to thy hands all the treasures of his graces and mercies?
The divine Child we behold on thy knees, . . .
Certainly no Protestant could object to any of these references to Jesus. They're in there, and they can't be dismissed and discounted. I can see that probably the most controversial passage in the prayer would be the line:
Thou art almighty by grace, and therefore thou canst save us.
Before anyone drops dead from shock, this is perfectly explainable in an orthodox, biblical sense. The language of "save" is (as I have shown above) perfectly biblical. The Bible teaches that God uses His creatures to distribute His grace, that always originates from Him and He alone. Paul uses the same language.
Catholics believe that God uses Mary in the distribution of grace, even for all graces received (yes, that is firm, longstanding Catholic doctrine, reaffirmed by all recent popes: just not yet defined at the very highest dogmatic level). God can do that if He so chooses. It is neither impossible nor contrary to the Bible, nor denigrating of God. It is, we believe in faith, how God chose to act. Here one who is just starting to explore Catholic Mariology, needs to take a deep breath, relax, and read a few elementary, prerequisite treatments of the topic. I have provided a few of those myself:
Catholic Marian Doctrines: A Brief Biblical Primer
"All Have Sinned . . . " (Mary?)
The Imitation of Mary
Is Mary Worshiped by Catholics? (The Latria / Dulia Distinction)
A Biblical and Theological Primer on Mary Mediatrix
Human, Pauline, and Marian Distribution of Divine Graces: Not an "Unbiblical" Notion After All?
"Why Do Catholics 'Pray to Mary'?" (+ Discussion)
Those who want to pursue the topic in greater depth can read many more papers on my Blessed Virgin Mary web page.
I've written about the language of "almighty" as applied to Mary before, but I'm having difficulty finding it. No matter; I remember the argument. The definition of the word "almighty" is not limited to reference to God alone, as literally all-powerful. It can also have a second meaning of "great power." For example, Merriam-Webster online, gives as a second definition:
relatively unlimited in power <an almighty board of directors> b: having or regarded as having great power or importance <the almighty dollar>
Note that in the prayer, Mary is "almighty by grace," which precisely expresses that whatever power she has comes from God, by grace. God needs no grace; only His creatures do, including Mary, who was saved by her immaculate conception, by the sheer grace of God. God gives her extraordinary grace to be very powerful ("almighty" in the second permitted sense of the word).
Dictionary.com confirms the above, in its first entry, from the Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2006):
2. having very great power, influence, etc.: The almighty press condemned him without trial.
So this becomes a simple matter of understanding the language, and the permitted latitude in language, according to dictionary definition. But people often see what they want to see, don't they?: according to their predispositions coming in. Many Protestants who see this (already hampered by a highly distorted notion of what Catholics believe about Mary) will immediately conclude that Mary is being equated with God, and given power that only He has (omnipotence). They do the same in how they interpret our asking Mary to pray for us. That is simply not the case. And if they don't give Catholics the least benefit of the doubt, then they will continue on with their distortions and calumnies.
There seems to be some fundamental objection also, to referring to Mary's "heart." But that is derived from the longstanding Catholic pious tradition of devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (see the Catholic Encyclopedia article on that), which was highly developed over centuries, from an implicit biblical basis in passages like the following:
Luke 2:16-19 And they went with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. And when they saw it they made known the saying which had been told them concerning this child; and all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. But Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart.
Luke 2:35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul [heart in some translations] also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed."
Luke 2:51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
The devotion is analogous to the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus (see Catholic Encyclopedia article). St. Paul refers to his own "heart" in similar fashion, in several passages:
Romans 9:2-3 . . . I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
2 Corinthians 2:4 For I wrote you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain but to let you know the abundant love that I have for you.
2 Corinthians 6:11 Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide.
2 Corinthians 7:3 I do not say this to condemn you, for I said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together.
(cf. Acts 21:13)
Therefore, one could speak of Paul, based on explicit biblical data, in much the same way as Mary, referring to his "saving" of others, and of returning to his "heart" -- that is, to conform to his will, just as he urged his followers to imitate him (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 2 Thess 3:7-9), as he imitated Christ (1 Cor 11:1; 1 Thess 1:6).
A few other things:
When JPII kissed the Koran, I disagreed with his actions. No matter how much anyone tried to persuade me to the contrary, I could not be convinced that such an action was glorifying to Jesus Christ.
Well, you may have concluded that no conceivable reasoning can persuade you otherwise (which I think is an unwise stance to take about anything). Perhaps other people, however, may be willing to read my two lengthy defenses of John Paul the Great, and to ponder why he may have done it, for perfectly legitimate reasons:
Dialogue: Should the Pope Kiss The Koran?: Ecumenism as an Effort to Acknowledge Partial Truth Wherever it is Found
Pope John Paul II and the Koran-Kissing Incident: Summary and Analysis of the Incoherence of the Horrified "Traditionalist" Objection
See also the related paper:
Does the Catholic Church Equate Allah and Yahweh? (+ Discussion)
Again, I think the wise approach to take to anything is to first fully understand the reasoning behind (or at least possible, plausible reasons behind) what one doesn't care for, before rejecting it.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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lifetone
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Posted: Wed Nov 26th, 2008 03:37 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Let's not get carried away here, with the "save" terminology. To speak of a human being as participating in "saving" others is perfectly biblical:
1 Corinthians 9:22 I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Yeah ... what Dave said. Okay I really love the Catholic Church and I don't want you guys to change - at all. I was thinking of this story one time in the AG church I used to attend about this missionary who returned to the tribe he helped convert and this guy traveled through the wilderness to come and meet him at the airport and hug him and say thanks for saving me! The point of the story was how important their work is in getting the Gospel out. The little religious spirit in me (this being a term we like to throw around a lot in the pentecostal world - meaning legalistically religious) was like well technically ... that is not correct. I talked to God for a while after that and I got to the same basic conclusion.
There is a difference between Mary help us and Mary save us and that difference is not necessarily one of deifying her or saying she's equal to God.
As for kissing the Koran, I get Becky's point in terms of making it clear we don't have to agree with everything the pope does - and kind of wanting to leave it there. That said, I agree with you Dave in agreeing with the pope's actions and I also kind of want to leave it at that. Except the fact is I'm not just in agreement but profoundly grateful to see our leaders standing right up there fighting the good fight. Reading the Qu'ran, talking about the Trinity, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Incarnation with them, has been some of the hardest things God has ever called me to do. God knows. He was there for that. And thank You, Father...for how my faith grew through that. And thank You, Father, for what you are doing right now in that area.
Anyway, thanks Dave. I kinda wanted to say something like ... oh, let's not get weird about this. Only I want to say it a little more strongly like this. Stand your ground guys! You are doing the right thing!
For what it's worth.
That said, yes, use wisdom and say the right things at the right time. But we are talking here about an encylical written by the pope to believers to be read in context. As Dave said..
God bless, hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving!!
Last edited on Wed Nov 26th, 2008 03:38 pm by lifetone
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ChildofGod
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Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 04:56 pm |
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Thanks Dave, for your input. However, I still stand by what I said. Call it my "Protestant" bias, call it my independent thought, call it what you will.
One can have deep respect, admiration, and love for others in the faith who have far more wisdom, training, understanding, knowledge, in matters of theology, and yet, not feel compelled to defend all things said and done by said persons above. The kissing of the Quran is not an action Catholics must feel compelled to agree with else they are dissenting from the faith.
Again, I refer to times when popes went off the track and were not living in accordance with the Catholic, apostolic faith. Certainly many of their actions were indefensible since they were not living godly lives. The very Catholic faith which they were supposed to profess, they did not profess. Instead, their lives brought scandal upon the precious Church of Christ. Would any Catholic be compelled to defend sinful actions of these popes? I think not.
It has even been said that Luther was on the mark about error creeping in to the Catholic faith as regards indulgences. And that the Protestant Reformation (aka Rebellion) brought about the Council of Trent to reiterate and clarify Church teaching. Luther was not wrong in what he saw as abuses within the Church. Rather, he was wrong in that he broke away from the Church and openly opposed the Catholic faith. Had he been willing to pray for the Catholic Church and work with his superiors in correcting the abuses, then he would have been seen as one who was willing to work toward change that resulted in purifying the Church.
So, where does one draw the line? Is a Catholic never allowed to have a personal opinion regarding the actions of those in authority (Magesterium, Pope) if having this dissenting/differing opinion is not departing or apostisizing from the Catholic faith? I have read comments right here on the forum from various Cradle Catholics who have disagreed with actions of bishops/priests. And it has been my understanding that these Catholics had the right to do so because the bishops & priests in question were doing things that were contrary to the Catholic faith.
Now, as far as the issue being discussed in this thread is concerned, I realize that it is not one of such a serious nature, as I stated in my previous comment. However, I think the rule still applies. In my inability to be able to defend the prayer of Pope Benedict, I am not questioning his faith in Christ. I am not questioning his character or his position as the Vicar of Christ. I am not calling him an idolator nor am I saying he is misrepresenting the Catholic faith. I am merely saying that I cannot defend nor would I say the prayer to Mary that he said. In doing so, I am not disparaging or casting doubt on Pope Benedict in his office as the Vicar of Christ.
Here is another way to look at it. Let's say one is reading a book written by Pope Benedict, or even JPII. Is a Catholic required to agree with every single work written, even though this book is not written in the capacity as the Pope "speaking excathedra?"
Actually, what I am saying is that I do not want to be required to check my mind at the door in becoming a Catholic. And I don't think from all that I have read thus far, that Catholics think they have to be mindless robots who never have a personal opinion concerning the actions of the hierarchy.
Again, I am sorry if anyone interprets what I have said as disrespect toward Catholic authority. God knows my heart and this is not my intention.
In Christ's love,
Darlene
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 10:47 pm |
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