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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 01:15 am |
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The following was originally posted by Dexter. I have reposted it here so it can be in the proper topic area.
I am a person with a strong plymouth brethren, "John Darbian" background being drawn to the Catholic Church. I have reconciled many of my initial skepticism such as the communion of saints, transubstantiation, infant baptism, Intercession of the Saints, Purgatory etc... however I still have three major hang-ups that I am struggling with.
...
The other is the dogma concerning Mary. The Immaculate Conception I think I can accept, being the Theotokos God would make her a clean vessel to give life to his Son. However, how could Mary's entire life have been sinless when Scripture teaches us that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 10:51 am |
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The other is the dogma concerning Mary. The Immaculate Conception I think I can accept, being the Theotokos God would make her a clean vessel to give life to his Son. However, how could Mary's entire life have been sinless when Scripture teaches us that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"
Thats a hard one.
Before we begin, lets remember Scripture's admonition concerning the Pauline epistles:
2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
In other words, Paul's epistles contain some teachings hard to understand.
So, lets begin:
If we study Romans 3, we see that Paul is speaking primarily of unfaithful people:
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Note that he says that "none" seek after God. Obviously, this is not an absolute term without exception. Otherwise, the Scriptures would err. There are many that seek after God.
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
If we go back in the Scriptures, we see that Paul is referring to a Psalm about fools and atheists:
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Then he says,
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
And thereby equates all them that believe to them that don't believe.
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
However,
Does "all" in this verse mean every person without exception?
1. If that were so, then Jesus would not be excluded and Scripture contradicts itself.
2. If that were so, then children in the womb would not be excluded and Scripture would be in error. For unborn children have had no opportunity to sin.
3. If that were so, people who never attain the ability to reason would not be excluded and Scripture would again be in error. Because one can't sin without intending to sin.
4. If that were so, children who have not attained to the age of reason would not be excluded and Scripture would again be in error as in #3 above.
So, in my opinion, St. Paul doesn't mean every person without exception. He means to include at least one exception, Jesus Christ. And the Holy Spirit which inspired these words includes two maybe more exceptions, Jesus, Mary and perhaps John the Baptist (he was sanctified in the womb, whereas Mary was sanctified at the time of conception), and maybe Enoch and Elijah who were assumed into heaven.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Jan 14th, 2007 01:01 pm |
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Here is a much clearer explanation from Catholic answers:
Excerpt:
But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
You can find the whole thing here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
Sincerely,
Juan
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AD
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Posted: Thu Jun 21st, 2007 11:41 pm |
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Please, Somebody has to help me out here. Now people are posting
that Mary is the (New Eve) Im not sure my imagination is that active
I will state again for the record, I am not trying to be argumentative
I am trying to understand why catholics belive the way they do. I am not
against tradition, But I am against just saying things cause thats the way I
believe it to be. Im at the present time trying to understand how for 600
years there could be many Bishops and then they change the way it was
and declare there is 1 Holy Pope. I will be reading more of the History
of the church but I believe they called those days the Dark Ages
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DrDave
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 12:26 am |
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For the most part a lot of what we refer to as tradition is simply trying to understand what has always been taught by the church (including the Bible) in the way that it has always been understood.
Personally I would suggest reading church history a bit further back the so-called Dark Ages. You have mentioned elsewhere that you have read the bible several times, so I would suggest to you to read some from the Early Church Fathers, the immediate generations following the Twelve. People such as Ignatius, Polycarp etc people who learned their faith from those men instructed by Christ to "teach all nations everything..." These people didn't go by the "Bible Alone" because the bible wouldn't exist for another 2-3 hundred years.
I would recommend "Four Witnesses: The Early Church in Her Own Words" edited by Rod Bennet
Regards Dave
Last edited on Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 12:28 am by DrDave
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setapart
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Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2007 01:12 am |
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AD,
I encourage you to read a book titled, "Crossing the Tiber" by Stephen Ray. Although Stephen is highlighting the teachings about Baptism and the Eucharist, this book clearly demonstrates that in the teachings of the Church Fathers, they considered themselves as taught directly from the Apostles themselves.
Below is a link to a good explanation to your question:
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//meditations/neweve.html
The references to Mary as the new Eve were pondered upon and written about long before the "Dark Ages".
God Bless,
Bill
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 01:42 am |
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AD wrote: Please, Somebody has to help me out here. Now people are posting
that Mary is the (New Eve) Im not sure my imagination is that active
I will state again for the record, I am not trying to be argumentative
I am trying to understand why catholics belive the way they do. I am not
against tradition, But I am against just saying things cause thats the way I
believe it to be. Im at the present time trying to understand how for 600
years there could be many Bishops and then they change the way it was
and declare there is 1 Holy Pope. I will be reading more of the History
of the church but I believe they called those days the Dark Ages
Al
If you dont' mind I thought I would give you a couple of online sites where you could get a feel for the ECF's and the churches tradition in their writings. I do highly recomend the three volume set of "The Faith of the Early Church Fathers" by Jurgens. But Catholic First has all of the Father's writings catagorized to that you can pick through. http://www.catholicfirst.com/churchfathersindex.cfm
Also to go along with the sugestion of "Crossing The Tiber" by Stephen Ray, here is his website that he has many fine articles that he has written on many of the subjects that you may be interested in. If you scroll down the page you will see a few articles he has written. In his writings his uses the comparison of Mary being the Ark of the new covenant, as she carried the Word made flesh within here. I will try to find you an article on Mary as the new Eve. http://catholicconvert.com/Default.aspx?tabid=83
Both comparisons are very interesting, but were comparisons that I had never heard prior to my journey to the Catholic Church. I do believe they are normally referred to as a "Prefigurement of Mary would be Eve" or in some situations they refer to OT profescies as "Typology" being the word used. Here is a short explanation that you can see by the date & Authors was used and believed very early in the Christian Church.
"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty… Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
"Accordingly, a virgin did conceive and bear 'Emmanuel, God with us.' This is the new nativity; a man is born in God. And in this man God was born, taking the flesh of an ancient race, without the help, however, of the ancient seed, in order that He might reform it with a new seed, that is, in a spiritual manner, and cleanse it by the re-moral of all its ancient stains. But the whole of this new birth was prefigured, as was the case in all other instances, in ancient type, the Lord being born as man by a dispensation in which a virgin was the medium. The earth was still in a virgin state, reduced as yet by no human labour, with no seed as yet cast into its furrows, when, as we are told, God made man out of it into a living soul…For it was while Eve was yet a virgin, that the ensnaring word had crept into her ear which was to build the edifice of death. Into a virgin's soul, in like manner, must be introduced that Word of God which was to raise the fabric of life; so that what had been reduced to ruin by this sex, might by the selfsame sex be recovered to salvation. As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced. But (it will be said) Eve did not at the devil's word conceive in her womb. Well, she at all events conceived; for the devil's word afterwards became as seed to her that she should conceive as an outcast, and bring forth in sorrow. Indeed she gave birth to a fratricidal devil; whilst Mary, on the contrary, bare one who was one day to secure salvation to Israel, His own brother after the flesh, and the murderer of Himself. God therefore sent down into the virgin's womb His Word, as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother. Hence it was necessary that Christ should come forth for the salvation of man, in that condition of flesh into which man had entered ever since his condemnation." Tertullian, Flesh of Christ, 17 (A.D. 212).
"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel" Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:21 (A.D. 377).
Reprinted here with permission to use for teaching purposes from Scripture Catholic
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-V
I remember how strange I found some of these different teachings, as I too had never heard of them before study of the catholic faith, I'm just hoping that some of these writings can help you to see that the prefigurement of Mary as the new Eve is really an ancient teaching and not something that the church or any of us just made up. You can see in many of the ECF's writings are numerous teachings that have always been believed in the ancient catholic church.
If I've not yet mentioned it, I'm happy to have you here with us and have enjoyed reading some of your post. Welcome to the CHNetwork
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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AD
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 11:33 am |
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Thanks for that response Betty, That was quite a mouthful, (LOL) I think I was just taken aback and found my mouth slack and agape at the thought of the phrase. I really don't have a problem with the comparison as it does no harm in the broad sense but I must confess that I draw the line there because I have learned on this site something that I didn't know and that is catholics believe Mary was sinless as Jesus was. I could see where one might think that if the object was going to be pure, then the vessel that contains it must be pure but that really has nothing to do with what took place. I see types and shadows from old to new thru out the sacrad word of God and to see her as a type of the old eve that fell short to mary who received the the Salvation of God because of her obedience is not a stretch for me,  Thanks again Betty for your efforts and taking time sharing. This all takes time and you gave of yours freely
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Katy
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Posted: Sun Jul 1st, 2007 08:51 pm |
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AD wrote: I have learned on this site something that I didn't know and that is catholics believe Mary was sinless as Jesus was.
Mary is not sinless in the same way as Jesus though. She was saved by Jesus' death on the cross. Jesus gave her a great gift by saving her from sin before she sinned. I think it was Patrick Madrid who told the story of someone falling in a hole and being pulled out vs. someone about to fall in a hole and being prevented from falling in the hole. Both people were saved, but the second was given an even greater gift by being saved before they fell. This is what Jesus did for his mother.
I could see where one might think that if the object was going to be pure, then the vessel that contains it must be pure
It is important to stress that it was fitting but not necessary that Mary be a pure vessel. Jesus' purity is not dependent on Mary's purity.
____________________
Lord, by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.
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AD
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 11:58 am |
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Katy wrote: AD wrote: I have learned on this site something that I didn't know and that is catholics believe Mary was sinless as Jesus was.
Mary is not sinless in the same way as Jesus though. She was saved by Jesus' death on the cross. Jesus gave her a great gift by saving her from sin before she sinned. I think it was Patrick Madrid who told the story of someone falling in a hole and being pulled out vs. someone about to fall in a hole and being prevented from falling in the hole. Both people were saved, but the second was given an even greater gift by being saved before they fell. This is what Jesus did for his mother.
I could see where one might think that if the object was going to be pure, then the vessel that contains it must be pure
It is important to stress that it was fitting but not necessary that Mary be a pure vessel. Jesus' purity is not dependent on Mary's purity.
Thanks Katy, At least you didn't strike out with me. We both agree that Jesus' purity is not dependent on Mary's purity. Because I am not of the catholic church, ( I am a child of GOD, Born Again, baptized in the Holy Ghost as Jesus said one must be to be a child of GOD) I will let the Scriptures speak for themselves as to the condition and position of mary. I am in no way suggesting your not a child of GOD. I was just stating my credentials as I came in peace to learn how other people following Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord believe. We both I think would agree that there is a lot of mis-information in the churches and we have already been forward by Peter in 2nd Peter chap 2v1,2,3 and by Paul in 1st Timothy chap 4v1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and other places in scripture that the church is indeed full of false teachers, including the catholic church in my opinion. Thank you for taking the time to share your understanding with me. We both agree that when we take the last breath here and cross over, the reality of TRUTH will indeed set in. Peace my sister,
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AD
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 01:15 pm |
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Because Katy woke me up, (lol) I had forgotten of this post, I would just like to go back to a post Juan made here in his explaing of scripture. I am only looking at one point at this time so please, don't gang up on this, Its just a oversite of what Yeshua did and did not say.
Juan gave scripture to defend the meaning of scripture that says there is none that seek after GOD and said it was not trying to say none because there are exceptions as we know there are people who do seek after him so he could not mean none as absolute.
That is not what scripture teaches but just the opposite! Jesus makes the statement in John 6 v 36,37,38,39 Looking at v37,39
All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. 39- and this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day
The Jews it says were murmuring and they did not believe him. He then says in v44, No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus stated many times in scripture that he was here to do the Fathers will. He said he did not say or do anything that the Father didn't show him. Because of the TOTAL Depravity of man at the fall, The scripture points out its need for a Saviour and so the scripture stands alone on the scripture.
Isaiah said it this way. chap 28 v 9,10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line, hear a little and there a little. I stand with Paul's statement that he made in Romans 3 v9,10,11,12
What then? are we better then they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that all are under sin As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
I have concluded after giving thought to how many people NONE would include, I came up with the number 0 The statement that NO ONE can come unless He is drawn by the Holy Spirit demands the understanding that man, The entire human race was Lost without hope. I know this was a lot for the one comment but some times I get carried away, LOL Peace
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DrDave
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Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 08:15 pm |
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Al, I think the simple point that Juan was making is that if "all have sinned" is to be interpreted in a literalist manner (meaning just what the words say) then Jesus is a sinner.
If however we search for the intention of the inspired author, in context, (the literal interpretation) then we are obliged to take into account the passage he was quoting which indicates that there are exceptions to this passage.
Regards Dave
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Juan
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 12:42 am |
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Because Katy woke me up, (lol) I had forgotten of this post, I would just like to go back to a post Juan made here in his explaing of scripture. I am only looking at one point at this time so please, don't gang up on this, Its just a oversite of what Yeshua did and did not say.
Juan gave scripture to defend the meaning of scripture that says there is none that seek after GOD and said it was not trying to say none because there are exceptions as we know there are people who do seek after him so he could not mean none as absolute.
Correct.
That is not what scripture teaches but just the opposite! Jesus makes the statement in John 6 v 36,37,38,39 Looking at v37,39
The Jews it says were murmuring and they did not believe him. He then says in v44, No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
You are reading into Scripture if you think that means that men can't seek God.
No man can come to me, does not mean, no man can seek God.
Here is what Scripture says about man seeking God:
Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
2 Chronicles 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
2 Chronicles 15:13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Job 5:8
I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:
Psalm 63:1
O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;
Jesus stated many times in scripture that he was here to do the Fathers will. He said he did not say or do anything that the Father didn't show him. Because of the TOTAL Depravity of man at the fall, The scripture points out its need for a Saviour and so the scripture stands alone on the scripture.
I don't quite understand what you just said, but the Catholic Church teaches that we all need a Saviour.
389.The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ
Isaiah said it this way. chap 28 v 9,10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line, hear a little and there a little.
I stand with Paul's statement that he made in Romans 3 v9,10,11,12
What then? are we better then they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that all are under sin As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Does Scripture contradict Itself? Here is what Paul said in another verse:
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
So who are they that did not sin from Adam to Moses?
So, then, what does Paul mean? Does he mean that all sinned? He couldn't or the Scripture would be false. Because children under the age of reason have not sinned. Nor have children in the womb.
Does he mean that all are born in original sin? Perhaps. But in that case, there would have to be at least one exception, Jesus. And that means that the statement was not absolute, so, then according to Catholic Teaching also Mary. And John the Baptist was conceived but not born under original sin, either.
I have concluded after giving thought to how many people NONE would include, I came up with the number 0 The statement that NO ONE can come unless He is drawn by the Holy Spirit demands the understanding that man, The entire human race was Lost without hope.
Coming to Jesus is not the same as seeking God. And what point are you making? The Scripture says that God wants all to be saved?
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Are all saved? Obviously not. Another example that the word "all" is not used in an absolute sense in Scripture. Because "all" means 100%, everyone, 0 exceptions.
I know this was a lot for the one comment but some times I get carried away, LOL Peace
So do I. Shalome,
Sincerely,
Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 01:14 am |
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Thanks Katy, At least you didn't strike out with me. We both agree that Jesus' purity is not dependent on Mary's purity.
That is Catholic Teaching.
Because I am not of the catholic church,
Yes, you are. Or should I say, if you were baptized with the proper formula, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you were born again of the Church who is the bride of Christ and you are Her child.
( I am a child of GOD, Born Again, baptized in the Holy Ghost as Jesus said one must be to be a child of GOD)
Quote the Scripture, because Jesus said:
John 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I will let the Scriptures speak for themselves as to the condition and position of mary.
Scripture says much about Mary. All good. If you think Scripture says Mary is a sinner, quote it. You will find it is not there.
Luke 1:28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women....
43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?....
46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luke 1:49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
And have you considered that these are the Words of God because Scripture is the Word of God. And have you considered that God sent an Angel from heaven to praise a mere woman. Has God done that for anyone else? And the Angel was delivering God's message, so it was God praising the mere woman. And this woman bore God in her womb. And this woman gave her love to God her child and God her child fed at her breast, she rocked Him to sleep and raised Him to adult.
I am in no way suggesting your not a child of GOD. I was just stating my credentials
What credentials?
as I came in peace to learn how other people following Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord believe.
This website is for those who have accepted or are beginning to accept the Catholic Church and want to learn more about it. Does that describe you?
We both I think would agree that there is a lot of mis-information in the churches
There is a lot of misinformation in nonCatholic Churches.
What you need to do is to listen to Scripture. Scripture tells you that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim 3:15). Believe it!
Jesus said the Gates of hell would not prevail against Her (Matt 16:18) and that those who don't listen to Her should be treated as heathen (Matt 18:17).
and we have already been forward by Peter in 2nd Peter chap 2v1,2,3 and by Paul in 1st Timothy chap 4v1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and other places in scripture that the church is indeed full of false teachers,
Show me the verse that says the Church is full of false teachers. These say that some false teachers will come and some will fall back into sin. But neither says that the Church is FULL of false teachers.
including the catholic church in my opinion.
Then your opinion contradicts Scripture doesn't it? Because Jesus said He would be with the Church always, until the end of time (Matt 28:20).
Thank you for taking the time to share your understanding with me. We both agree that when we take the last breath here and cross over, the reality of TRUTH will indeed set in. Peace my sister,
If you are saying that you won't know the truth until you die, I disagree. If you follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, you will know the truth right here while you still live:
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Sincerely,
Juan
Last edited on Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 01:15 am by Juan
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 06:20 am |
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If you continue in My word then are you My disciples indeed. John 8:31 and you will know the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free. John 8:32
I am the way the TRUTH and the life no man comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6
Seems to me that the TRUTH is Jesus not the church of any kind. And in effect we do know the TRUTH if we accept Jesus and continue in His word.
On another note there was a remark about this being a site for catholics or those becoming catholics. Is it not for inquirers to find out more about what the catholic church believes. Thats how it starts right. I mean if the catholic church really wants people to know the truth. I may be different but when the Word tells me to sanctify the Lord in my heart the reason given is that i may give an answer to every man that asks me the reason of the hope that is in me with meekness and fear. Kind of like a non evangelical church. That seems to make no sense. Imagine if we had a God that didnt evangelize us. We would be dead in our sin. Wages of sin is death. All of us would be dead even precious blessed holy virgin mother of (the man) Jesus.
Juan stated: If you think Scripture says Mary is a sinner, quote it. You will find it is not there.
We know that all have sinned and mary is part of all. And if the scripture say that mary isnt part of all I would like you to quote that. Please quote where mary is without sin. I can quote where Jesus is without sin. That is the only person I find without sin in the bible.
DrDave wrote: Al, I think the simple point that Juan was making is that if "all have sinned" is to be interpreted in a literalist manner (meaning just what the words say) then Jesus is a sinner.
Unfortunately for your argument dave the bible does state that Jesus was sinless in His earthly life. Jesus also fulfilled the law. Fulfilling the law is to keep all its ways. So the ONLY exception to pauls statement about all have sinned is the one that he is trying to get us all to believe in. He is proving that our righteousness is not our own but Jesus'. Mary in a sense was not the real mother of Jesus just like a surrogate. Almost like an incubation tank. Of course more profound than that but the fact is that she did nothing to initiate the pregnancy. Hence Jesus in essence was not really born of a woman because it wasnt her that did anything to bring Jesus into existence. It was all God. She was just the vessel He used to bring the Son into the world in the flesh of Jesus. Kind of like if we take any credit for bringing people to Jesus. All credit goes to the Father there. Are we the sinless ones that brought Jesus to people. No God used us by His Holy Spirit to bring people to Jesus. Just like God used mary to bring Jesus to people.
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Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 08:37 am |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: On another note there was a remark about this being a site for catholics or those becoming catholics. Is it not for inquirers to find out more about what the catholic church believes. Thats how it starts right.
This site is for all who sincerely wish to learn more about the Catholic faith, regardless of their reason. It is not a place for those who wish to "Catholic-bash" or otherwise convince Catholics of the wrongness of their faith.
(I use the pronoun "you" in this message to mean any person, not necessarily you, wvnlyjstbgn, so please don't take it personally.)
That doesn't mean you are not free to question Church teaching or even to disagree with it, but your purpose in being here must be to learn the Catholic position. You may post a belief contrary to Catholic doctrine in an attempt to learn the Catholic position, to get it explained, to see it further developed, but the ultimate objective is not to prove Catholic teaching wrong but to fully understand it. Once a person understands the Catholic position, it is time to end the discussion. Debates over the validity of Catholic teaching are not permitted; discussions leading to understanding are fine.
I think this is correctly expressed in our Forum Guidelines. If not, please let me know so it can be clarified.
So basically, it comes down to intention. If you are here to learn about the Church, you belong here. If you are here to teach against the Church, you do not.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 09:04 am |
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Ordinarily I prefer not to intervene when people are already engaged in a discussion. Here, I’m having difficulty following either side of the conversation.
wvnlyjstbgn wrote:Seems to me that the TRUTH is Jesus not the church of any kind.
The first part of this statement is true. The problem with the second part is that the Church IS Jesus in the world, for it is his body (to cite but a single book, Ephesians 1:22–23; 4 passim, especially vv. 11–16; 5:23–32). The latter-day disconnect between the idea of Christ and the idea of his Church is not biblically sound.
On another note there was a remark about this being a site for catholics or those becoming catholics. Is it not for inquirers to find out more about what the catholic church believes. Thats how it starts right. I mean if the catholic church really wants people to know the truth. I may be different but when the Word tells me to sanctify the Lord in my heart the reason given is that i may give an answer to every man that asks me the reason of the hope that is in me with meekness and fear. Kind of like a non evangelical church. That seems to make no sense.
You are quite right in this point. This forum is for people like you, too, who are just trying to wrap their minds around a piece of Catholicism and make sense of it.
Please quote where mary is without sin.
I will repeat here what I wrote the other day in a different thread when someone else asked the same question:
From our point of view, it is contained in the angel’s salutation: “Hail, full of grace!” (Luke 1:28). Mary could not be full of grace if she was a sinner. Again, in v. 35, we read, ““The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” How could Mary receive the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit and become the mother of God incarnate if she was an unworthy sinner?
I also described the conditions of Mary’s sinlessness in that same thread:
Mary’s status as a creature and a human being was necessary to God’s plan of salvation. Since she was designated to become the mother of our Savior, who is by nature the Son of God, she contributed her humanity to make this possible.
In addition, many people, seeing the honor we bestow on Mary as the mother of God, are misled to believe that we consider her equal to Christ and therefore sinless by nature. This too is false. Mary’s sinlessness is not hers, but is derived from that of her Son. Mary had to have a Savior and be redeemed right along with the rest of humanity. The difference between her and us is in her unique role as mother of Christ. Because this role began historically before her Son could be born, so also the grace and salvation that she needed had to come before. As a result, she was sanctified at the moment she was conceived in the womb of her mother, St. Anne, by the anticipated grace and redemption supplied by her Son.
To say, “Mary in a sense was not the real mother of Jesus just like a surrogate. Almost like an incubation tank.” is to understand Mary as less than human. Yet it was she who gave the second Person of the holy Trinity his humanity. This is a contradiction. You go on to explain your analogy in terms of evangelizers inspired by the Holy Spirit bringing people to Jesus. Are we any less human for all that? Does not grace (as our theologians say) build on the foundation of nature, rather than destroying it? I see a major problem of logic here. Can you help?
God bless you, Mike.
David
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 07:06 pm |
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Hello David. Nice to see someone not offended and ready to step up to the plate. Now I dont believe the catholic church is right. But, I do like intelligent answers.
From our point of view, it is contained in the angel’s salutation: “Hail, full of grace!” (Luke 1:28). Mary could not be full of grace if she was a sinner. Again, in v. 35, we read, ““The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” How could Mary receive the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit and become the mother of God incarnate if she was an unworthy sinner.
Now this is what you wrote and I have some questions and statements on this.
Do we have God living in us? Are we sinless? Can we be filled with the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit ever come upon anyone else in the world in power? If so were those people unworthy sinners as we ourselves are? These are the questions.
We are the temple of God. We are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. You will recieve power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you. God demonstrated His love for us while we were still sinners. These are the statements.
Now I believe that we are not sinless. But at the same time I believe we are not sinners. Sinners classifies those who dont know Jesus. Sinlessness (in my eyes) can only be attributed to Jesus. If you have more than just those couple verses I would like to see. I mean of course verses to add to those from the bible that tell of mary's sinlessness. I also believe all who are saved are very full of grace from God I just dont have any scripture but ill look for something on it.
Thanks for the reply
____________________
Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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DrDave
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Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 08:07 pm |
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