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brian
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 02:00 am |
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As I get more comfortable with venerating Mary and the saints, I wonder exactly what things make n action from praise or love to worship. If I am kneeling down while asking Mary for prayer, am I bowing to her? Is it wrong to bow in front of a statue of Mary or while praying to Mary? I know that it is different to bow to the altar than it is to bow to the tabernacle, or thsat one is an actual prostrating or something technical and the other is just a respectful bow.
A friend of mine who had been to Mexico accused the Catholics there of clearly worshipping Mary, and though he claimed I and some catholics know the true teaching that in less educated places they misunderstand and elevate Mary too highly. Is there any truth to this. I just said He misunderstood and even if some take it too far most probably know the difference between honor and worship. But he was complaining about people kneeling before statues of her and things like that. I am not too familiar with that culture.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 03:20 am |
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The simple answer, Brian, is that it is the person’s intent that counts, regardless of his outward attitude. Your friend knows how obeisance was made in former times to kings and potentates of foreign lands; this is a matter of historical and sociological record. The fact that his culture has limited such outward signs for God alone (and often not even for God!) does not mean that others must follow suit.
Often I have seen Latin American pilgrims walking on their knees up the steps to a shrine. People in the United States and Canada do not have this custom, but we recognize it as acceptable for others and respect their custom. By the same token, your friend should understand that not everyone will believe or do exactly as he does; in fact, those from Latin America might well consider your friend’s outward attitude irreverent if he does not do the same as they when entering a holy place. Is that just? Then neither is his judgment of others.
To address your question of what is “right” regarding outward honor given to Mary and the saints: There is no universal code because every culture has its own customs and taboos. Whatever is in your heart, provided it does not violate local Christian custom, should be quite acceptable.
David
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brian
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 02:48 pm |
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Hmm. is it always intent/customs then that answers my questions? Are there no words and actions/postures that being clearly worship are reserved for God only? I would think maybe explicitly saying things like 'i worship you', or 'you are my God' might be some examples.
Anyway, I know you are closer to the culture i speak of. I like what you say about intent and I want to defend my Hispanic brothers and sisters, but my question then is if you are also willing to vouch or give me your personal opinion or information you know about the state of this in Mexico. If it is wrong for my friend to judge their intent not knowing their culture or heart, is it also wrong for you to judge their intent and say that they are not doing anything wrong since you do not know exactly either unless you have spoken to many or are just more culturally aware. What is your personal opinion of the matter and is it possible that some or many do go to far in their hearts as they venerate Mary? Or is it impossible for us to really answer not having divine knwledge? I guess I am not asking youto tell me exactly what God thinks so much as what can be known about it from our limited perspective and from the contact and research you have done.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 03:07 pm |
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brian wrote: Hmm. is it always intent/customs then that answers my questions? Are there no words and actions/postures that being clearly worship are reserved for God only? I would think maybe explicitly saying things like 'i worship you', or 'you are my God' might be some examples.
Let me jump in here and answer this one. Our purpose here is to explain the teachings of the Catholic Church. As you know, there are many people who deviate from Church teaching, whether it be in their use of artificial birth control or their support of pro-abortion politics. Certainly there are some who cross the line into inappropriate behavior towards our Blessed Mother. They are misguided individuals who have been improperly catechized. However, worship of our Blessed Mother is not and never has been a part of the doctrine of the Catholic Church. We give her respect and veneration, but worship and adoration is reserved to God alone. We worship God in three Persons/Manifestations (Father/Creator, Son/Savior, and Spirit/Action) and in the Holy Eucharist, which is God given to us by the Father in the Body and Blood of our Savior through the action of the Holy Spirit.
It's not fair to ask David to vouch for the entire Hispanic community and say that none of them have ever crossed the line into improper practice, any more than it would be fair to ask me if some Protestant preachers have not crossed the line into becoming the God-figure themselves. We know this: Mary does not ask for worship for herself, only for her Son. I can't say the same of some Protestant pastors.
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brian
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:31 pm |
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I am only asking for him to tell me what he knows based on his experience, not to give me a definitive answer that will speak for the whole community. I am just curious to know what i can know about the state of proper catechesis south of the border regarding this subject since I have heard some who claim it is a cause for concern. Of course there will be some who go too far in one area or another and of course it is the proper teaching of the church that counts and of course David can not speak up regarding the hearts of all Catholics in Mexico, but that does not mean he may not (living closer to that area and being more aware than me of different cultures) be able to give me a general impression of what his experience/knowledge he has been regarding this from what he can see in his limited perspective. Should he choose not to answer that is fine, but i was not asking for too much i do not think. I mean if someone from Mexico asked me about the religious practices at our parish, while i could not peak on behalf of all, or say what was truly in the hearts of each member of those in my parish, i definitely could at least give him an idea of what things in my opninion we adhere to well and what things we are lacking in and an overall general impressionof what i have experienced from what little i have seen.
brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:49 pm |
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brian wrote: I am only asking for him to tell me what he knows based on his experience, not to give me a definitive answer that will speak for the whole community.
Your first question was rather rambling but I took it as asking him to vouch for the state of Marian "worship" in Mexico. And that's an unfair question.
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brian
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:52 pm |
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The reason that this is important to me is that I want to defend the Church and its members wherever I can in good conscience. Someone I know denigrated the religious practice of an entire nation, and I want to show solidarity with them and defend them. Therfore before I defend them I am just trying to learn more about the subject before I say anything one way or the other.
I also realize that while I may speak on how things are at my parish or David can speak on what he knows, i realize that only God can accurately say what the state of affairs is. It might look to me like all is well, but God may not be pleased. So any information i gather this way i realize is more speculative.
Still, if someone has met say 100 catholics from an area and spoke to all 100 and gathered that all clearly understood the teaching, while that person may not be able to speak for the nation as a whole it would definitely be something that would help me form a conclusion.
I mean what about our Mardi Gras conversation. I took your word as more valuable than my own because you live there and you were eager to defend what was good about the customs while admitting to some of the misapplications in some blocks. This is the same thing. Because you lived there I figure you are qualified to give me a general idea of how things go over there. Should you not have answered that question?
anyway. I am not intending to be annoying, and i apologize if my rhetoric is strong, but i am just confused and wonder if maybe i could modify my question or find a more direct way to learn of the religious practices and understandings in Mexico, before I speak on their behalf or not. I am at this point assuming the best about them, and have loved those Mexican catholics that i know personally.
Brian
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DrDave
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Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 11:20 pm |
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Brian to go back to your initial post your friend seems to be claiming that he can determine these peoples inward intent from their outward gestures. (The word "clearly" stands out)
But to answer your second post, intent is everything. There are those in the Protestant world who would argue that a boxer falling to his knees before collapsing on the mat is an act of worship because he was on his knees before another person, and therefore worshiping that person. Black and white NO QUESTIONS ASKED! But most people would just laugh at that example.
Now sure some actions can seem pretty full on, (walking up an entire mountain to a shrine on your knees - I've seen that one on a documentary somewhere), and likewise some wording can seem right "out there". I almost flipped when I heard a song during mass one time referring to "Brother Sun and Sister Moon", I thought "Hey we're here to worship God, we're not anamists" but enquiring I found that the song was based on a famous (I hadn't heard of it ) prayer by St Francis, and that taken in context was not really suggesting that the moon has a personality.
With all of that in mind, it must be said that there are people out there who (after enquiring and taking cultural norms into account) reject the teaching of mother church, and do believe that Mary (and or others) should be elevated to or above God. But based on my reading, you're more likely to find them in the ultra-feminist in the pew next to you than in latin america.
Regards Dave
Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 11:21 pm by DrDave
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NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 12:12 am |
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cajunrick wrote: brian wrote: Hmm. is it always intent/customs then that answers my questions? Are there no words and actions/postures that being clearly worship are reserved for God only? I would think maybe explicitly saying things like 'i worship you', or 'you are my God' might be some examples.
Let me jump in here and answer this one. Our purpose here is to explain the teachings of the Catholic Church. As you know, there are many people who deviate from Church teaching, whether it be in their use of artificial birth control or their support of pro-abortion politics. Certainly there are some who cross the line into inappropriate behavior towards our Blessed Mother. They are misguided individuals who have been improperly catechized. However, worship of our Blessed Mother is not and never has been a part of the doctrine of the Catholic Church. We give her respect and veneration, but worship and adoration is reserved to God alone. We worship God in three Persons/Manifestations (Father/Creator, Son/Savior, and Spirit/Action) and in the Holy Eucharist, which is God given to us by the Father in the Body and Blood of our Savior through the action of the Holy Spirit.
It's not fair to ask David to vouch for the entire Hispanic community and say that none of them have ever crossed the line into improper practice, any more than it would be fair to ask me if some Protestant preachers have not crossed the line into becoming the God-figure themselves. We know this: Mary does not ask for worship for herself, only for her Son. I can't say the same of some Protestant pastors.
Rick, a huge smile came across my face when I read your last line!
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Ruthie
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Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 02:49 am |
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Can’t we just look at this simply? People kneel in front of a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary in reverence and prayer to her when asking her to intercede for them to her Son. It is not worship, which is reserved for God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Her statue is a reminder of who she is, not an actual live presence in the statue itself as in worshiping an idol.
In my parish back home, there is a large statue of Jesus with his arms stretched out toward the congregation. People kneel and pray in front of this statue too. The statue itself is not Jesus, just a representation of him.
But we bow to the altar since this is where the bread and wine are consecrated and become the body and blood of our Lord.
We genuflect - drop to the right knee, and make the sign of the cross before the tabernacle to honor Jesus’ presence there.
When the Host is exposed in the monstrance, we drop to both knees and make the sign of the cross because Jesus is there right in front of us and we are acknowledging his very presence in adoration!
There might be other statues too in various churches, of various saints, of Joseph, as reminders of the saints they represent, and people kneel in front of these too, asking for intercession from these particular saints. Again, it’s not worship.
Where I live, there are many Hispanics and people from Latin America, so I assume some are from Mexico (probably most) and their religious customs might be the same as they are in Mexico.
Why all the circular arguments? It’s just simple if we think like a little child.
Ruthie
Last edited on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 02:51 am by Ruthie
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Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 03:09 am |
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brian wrote: Someone I know denigrated the religious practice of an entire nation, and I want to show solidarity with them and defend them.
Isn't that rather ludicrous on the face of it? How can anyone say that an entire nation has fallen into heresy? That would include priests, bishops, cardinals, and lay people, educated and uneducated, Catholic, Protestant and atheist. You can defend them quite simply by pointing out how ridiculous the question is.
We defend the teachings of the Catholic Church. There is no reason to defend against stupid statements.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 10:26 am |
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brian wrote:Hmm. Is it always intent/customs then that answers my questions? Are there no words and actions/postures that being clearly worship are reserved for God only? I would think maybe explicitly saying things like 'I worship you', or 'You are my God' might be some examples.
It’s not “always” intent or custom, Brian. But that is probably the only thing your friend will understand. I acknowledge what Ruthie said about our liturgical rites, which include certain prescribed obeisances, but this would make no sense to your friend, because it would not answer the question as he has formulated it. But simply telling him that Catholic culture is different from Protestant culture and that we should respect each other and not place motives in the other’s mind is more effective by far than any technical explanation, don’t you think? Isn’t this why Rick said that, at bottom, your friend’s question is ludicrous? He is presuming to read the mind and heart of another. Does he really have that power? That was my position, too.
David
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