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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 06:37 pm |
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Greek Orthodox Holy Water Bottle
[source]
My friend Nick Hardesty has made a great biblical argument for holy water. The words below (apart from Scripture and very minor editing for this version) are his own (Bible verses: RSV).
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God Uses Created Things In Order to Produce Supernatural Effects In Our Lives
There are many examples in Scripture where Jesus and the apostles use created things to produce supernatural effects in the lives of human beings. Jesus’ garment healed the woman with the hemorrhage:Matthew 9:20-22 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a hemorrhage for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment; for she said to herself, "If I only touch his garment, I shall be made well." Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, "Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well." And instantly the woman was made well. His saliva mixed with dirt (along with water from the pool of Siloam) gave sight to the blind man:John 9:6-7 As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man's eyes with the clay, saying to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Silo'am" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing. Many were healed by being anointed with oil:Mark 6:13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.
James 5:14-15 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Revelation 3:18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. Paul’s handkerchiefs cured disease and expelled evil spirits:Acts 19:11-12 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Elijah’s mantle parted the Jordan:2 Kings 2:8,14 Then Eli'jah took his mantle, and rolled it up, and struck the water, and the water was parted to the one side and to the other, till the two of them could go over on dry ground. . . . Then he took the mantle of Eli'jah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, "Where is the LORD, the God of Eli'jah?" And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other; and Eli'sha went over. The bones of his apprentice, Elisha, brought a man back to life:2 Kings 13:21 And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Eli'sha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Eli'sha, he revived, and stood on his feet. Of course, the Lord wrought innumerable miracles through the rods of Moses (cf. Exo 4:2-4; 9:23; 10:13; 14:16; 17:9-11; Num 20:11) and Aaron (cf. Exo 7:10-12,20; 8:5-6,17; Num 17:8) as well.
In Scripture, Water is Used to Cleanse, Purify, and Heal Human Beings
Believe it or not, there are examples of holy water in Scripture:
1) Water that has been blessed:Exodus 23:25 You shall serve the LORD your God, and I will bless your bread and your water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you. 2) Priest using “holy water”:Numbers 5:17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 3) The unclean remain so until the “water for impurity” is sprinkled upon them:Numbers 19:9,13-20 And a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and deposit them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the people of Israel for the water for impurity, for the removal of sin. . . . Whoever touches a dead person, the body of any man who has died, and does not cleanse himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from Israel; because the water for impurity was not thrown upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is still on him. "This is the law when a man dies in a tent: every one who comes into the tent, and every one who is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days. And every open vessel, which has no cover fastened upon it, is unclean.
Whoever in the open field touches one who is slain with a sword, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days. For the unclean they shall take some ashes of the burnt sin offering, and running water shall be added in a vessel; then a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the furnishings, and upon the persons who were there, and upon him who touched the bone, or the slain, or the dead, or the grave; and the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; thus on the seventh day he shall cleanse him, and he shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and at evening he shall be clean. "But the man who is unclean and does not cleanse himself, that person shall be cut off from the midst of the assembly, since he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD; because the water for impurity has not been thrown upon him, he is unclean. 4) Elisha makes the water “healed” (KJV) or “purified” (NASB) or "wholesome" (RSV):2 Kings 2:19-22 (KJV) And the men of the city said unto Elisha, Behold, I pray thee, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord seeth: but the water is naught, and the ground barren. And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him. And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land. So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake. So, the idea of “holy water” and its use is not foreign to Scripture. Notice from the third passage that a person remained unclean until water was sprinkled upon him. This points to an important 3-fold purpose for water in Scripture:
Cleansing: cf. Lev 14:8-9,50-52; 15:5-27; 17:15; Num 8:7; 19:12,18-19; 2 Ki 5:12; Psa 51:7; Ezek 16:4; 36:25; Eph 5:26; Heb 10:22
Purifying: cf. Exo 29:4; 40:12,30-32; Lev 11:32; 16:4,24,26,28; 22:6; Num 19:7-8; 31:23; Deut 23:10-11; 1 Ki 18:33-34; Jn 2:6; Heb 9:19
Healing: cf. 2 Ki 5:14; Isa 35:5-7; Jn 5:4 (KJV); 9:6-7. This is very significant, considering that demons were considered “unclean spirits” (cf. Mt 10:1; 12:43; Mk 1:23,26-27; 3:11,30; 5:2,8,13; 6:7; 7:25; 9:25; Lk 4:33,36; 6:18; 8:29; 9:42; 11:24; Acts 5:16; 8:7) and any person was unclean if possessed by one. It only makes sense that something that cleanses, purifies, and heals can be put to good use against something as unclean as a demon.Last edited on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 06:39 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 09:37 pm |
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| If the topic is water, why the references about oil and spit?
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:25 pm |
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BodRod wrote:
If the topic is water, why the references about oil and spit?
As the article explains, Criff, it’s about the use of created things to produce supernatural effects. It explains that water is one among many created things God uses in this way, so it should not be seen as something singular or unheard-of.
David
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Intercessor Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:35 pm |
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BodRod,
I had just gotten used to the unusual name of Criff.
I noticed on the left side that it is now listed as Cliff.
Is there a funny story behind this change? 
____________________ "If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:46 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: BodRod,
I had just gotten used to the unusual name of Criff.
I noticed on the left side that it is now listed as Cliff.
Is there a funny story behind this change? 
I caught on to the change a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't sure if he's just so old he forgot how to spell it, or couldn't see well enough to know it was wrong, or was just biding his time to see how long it would take us to notice.
Of course, I never even considered for a moment that I might be so old and blind that I had been seeing it wrong all that time.....
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Intercessor Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:50 pm |
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| It's a fun idea. Think I'll change my name to Ducky.
____________________ "If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:53 pm |
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Becky,
I am a ham radio operator. A few years ago I had several contacts with a ham radio club in a high school in Japan. They could not pronounce my name correctly. Fortunately, that always wanted to practice their English but they had significant trouble with the "L" in Cliff. That gave me the idea of using it on the Internet. That way, when I get junk mail, I know where they got my name and address. Recently however, I decided to use the correct spelling of my name on this site. I still use the incorrect version on other sites and in my other Internet activities. To borrow a phrase, "and that's the truth". 
Last edited on Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:54 pm by BodRod
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Intercessor Member
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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 10:55 pm |
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I knew there had to be a funny story.
Thanks for sharing it.
Ducky
____________________ "If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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DrDave Member

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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 11:01 pm |
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That confirms my suspicions, every time I looked over to the left and saw "Criff" I thought of the line from Lethal Weapon 4 where a Chinise character says in disgust "it's FRIED RICE you plick"
Regards Doc
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Credo Catholic Member

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Posted: Mon Jan 7th, 2008 11:05 pm |
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| Dave, that's an interesting website. After looking through some of it I found a section related to one of our current threads about how perfect Mary may or may not have been as an everyday mom. We think we have stresses, how would you like to lose the Savior of the world on a pilgrimage? He goes on to say how Mary is always there as a model for us to emulate, and also Joseph is there to help boys become men, and men to become men. Good article.
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beachmoss Member
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Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2008 11:33 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Dave, that's an interesting website. After looking through some of it I found a section related to one of our current threads about how perfect Mary may or may not have been as an everyday mom. We think we have stresses, how would you like to lose the Savior of the world on a pilgrimage? He goes on to say how Mary is always there as a model for us to emulate, and also Joseph is there to help boys become men, and men to become men. Good article.
Marsha,
Which thread is that? I can't find it, and it sounds interesting.
Beth
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brian Member
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 05:00 pm |
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Seems that Orthodox and Eastern Catholics drink Holy Water. Do Latin Rite Catholics do this? Also I do not know if we have the same rules about transporting it from one place to another. I saw a lot of people taking some home in different manners, whereas I had bought a special bottle for this purpose. Also, It is ok for non catholics to use sacramentals and bless themselves with holy water correct? This would mean they could drink it also?
Brian
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Credo Catholic Member

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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 10:32 pm |
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Sorry Beth, I just read your question tonight. The website is listed at the top of this thread started with Dave A. It is Nick Hardesty (in blue) and is his blog called PhatCatholic. As to the articles on Mary, I went exploring on that site and don't recall which specific article I went into! But it was interesting reading. Hope you find it! 
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 11:26 pm |
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Seems that Orthodox and Eastern Catholics drink Holy Water. Do Latin Rite Catholics do this?
I couldn't tell you, myself.
Also I do not know if we have the same rules about transporting it from one place to another. I saw a lot of people taking some home in different manners, whereas I had bought a special bottle for this purpose. Also, It is ok for non catholics to use sacramentals and bless themselves with holy water correct?
I believe so.
This would mean they could drink it also?
If Catholics are allowed to (I don't know), I imagine so. It's different from the sacraments. I was asked once to take up the gifts during Mass, before I was received into the Church. I told them I was not yet a Catholic, but they said it didn't matter. I was greatly honored, as this allowed me to directly participate in the Mass.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 12:59 am |
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I have not heard of drinking holy water. It is certainly not the custom in the western Church. In fact, I recall seeing an old Spanish film when I was in college in which one of the unsavory characters suggested drinking holy water as a sign of disrespect for God and the Church.
On the other hand, I have definitely seen people using ordinary containers for transporting and storing holy water, and I know of no prohibition against it. Using a special bottle (readily available in Catholic gift shops) is, of course, more respectful.
Yes, definitely it is acceptable for non-Catholics to use sacramentals, including holy water, in the same way as Catholics do. If, in the eastern Church, drinking holy water is acceptable, then it would also be acceptable for non-Catholics to do so within that context. However, I would not advise it in the context of the western Church for the reason stated above.
David
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 02:04 am |
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I have known many people who drink holy water, but they bring their own water containers to the church to have blessed. In the Latin Church, holy water is often blessed at Easter and left in open containers for pronongued periods, so it is really not safe to drink.
I know people who drink holy water when they are sick, cook with it on holydays, etc., and there is certainly nothing wrong with it. In many cultures people will have their food blessed prior to cooking it for major feasts/holydays/holidays.
Anything can be blessed at any time. Of course, once it is blessed it should never be desecrated, but any proper use is acceptable.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 11:51 am |
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We were told during RCIA classes last year that those of us who were candidates, and had already been baptized in other churches, could bless ourselves with holy water, but those who were catechumens, and not yet baptized, needed to wait until after they were bapized at the Easter Vigil. The explanation was that blessing ourselves with holy water is to remind us of our baptismal promises, and for those who had not yet made those promises, the act would be meaningless and even presumptuous.
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 12:38 pm |
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Free wrote:The explanation was that blessing ourselves with holy water is to remind us of our baptismal promises, and for those who had not yet made those promises, the act would be meaningless and even presumptuous.
Evidently it did not occur to these people that the unbaptized can use holy water and other sacramentals (a rosary, for instance) in ways that differ from such a narrow mindset. Furthermore, the prayer of blessing a sacramental carries is, as it were, passed to the devout user regardless of his baptismal status. So I would not prohibit anyone, Christian or not, from using a sacramental such as holy water.
David
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Free wrote:The explanation was that blessing ourselves with holy water is to remind us of our baptismal promises, and for those who had not yet made those promises, the act would be meaningless and even presumptuous.
Evidently it did not occur to these people that the unbaptized can use holy water and other sacramentals (a rosary, for instance) in ways that differ from such a narrow mindset. Furthermore, the prayer of blessing a sacramental carries is, as it were, passed to the devout user regardless of his baptismal status. So I would not prohibit anyone, Christian or not, from using a sacramental such as holy water.
I completely agree. While it would not carry the same sacramental character, choosing to bless with holy water is like a preparatory act of faith in the upcoming sacrament. The unbaptized can still repent from sin, ask God for forgiveness, attend mass, read scripture, say the rosary, etc., even though they do not have the same grace of baptism from which to draw. It becomes a private expression of faith, which I would think would be considered commendable, not presumptuous.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 11:13 pm |
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I like Dave and Rick's viewpoints on the use of holy water better than the ones I learned in RCIA class. Thanks.
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