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brian
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 05:21 pm |
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I truly accept the churches teaching so much as I understand it on Baptism and that it really does forgive us and make us Christians and all the other gifts it brings.
The thing that I find difficult to let go of is that people can genuinely be "born again" Christians before getting baptized. To me though conversion does happen at baptism is it not possible to have been made a Chrstian by God in some mysterious invisible way before this? Seems to me in Acts people received different gifts and conversions before getting baptized. This seems to me an agument that baptism itself is not salvific, but to be done after getting "saved" But on the flip side, the bible speaks clearly on the need for and purpose of baptsim and every converted person does go on for baptism.
I find it hard to believe that those who are catachumens and waited this whole year for baptism have not already converted by now in a sense. They know and believe in and love Jesus by now. How is tonights baptism going to really make them Christian any more than they already are?
I suppose that the church does teach that we are bound by the sacraments and not God. There can be baptism by blood or desire I am also aware.
Another thought I am playing around with is the idea in our faith of realizing the nature of time in eternity and how all is somehow all of time is present to God. Like the Eucharist being the same single sacrifice each day. Or praying for the dead even if they are already in heaven.
Therfore is it possible that we are made Christians by virtue of our baptism but it does not have to be chronologically before conversion or receiving certain gifts? Is it possible some of us are converted before baptism even though the conversion we experience is somehow linked to a baptism we are later to receive (or through blood or desire if we die first)?
That maybe those catachumens being baptized are just fulfilling in their baptism what God has asked us as a church to do, yet how and when He gives the gifts is up to Him?
I'd like to believe that at the same time my friends are already Christian and filled with the Spirit yet through their baptism they will experience what was necessary for their conversion and will receive certain graces that God chose to delay until the baptism occurred.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 06:18 pm |
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brian wrote:
I find it hard to believe that those who are catachumens and waited this whole year for baptism have not already converted by now in a sense. They know and believe in and love Jesus by now. How is tonights baptism going to really make them Christian any more than they already are?
Sacraments are outward signs instituted by Christ to give grace. That doesn't mean they are the first exposure to grace, but tonight's ceremony will wipe away their sins and wash them "in the Blood of the Lamb" in a mysterious way that grace alone cannot.
If ever you fall in love, Brian, you will wonder if the marriage makes a difference. Can you love a woman the day after your wedding differently than the day before? The answer is yes, because the day after the wedding, "the two have become one flesh" joined by God in a sacramental way. Even those who have had sex before marriage are not joined in the same way. Even if there has been a commitment between a man and a woman, it's not the same as getting those names on a piece of paper. The paper doesn't make the difference; it's the internal change in the spouses that should make the difference.
And the same is true of Baptism. It is the outward sign of an inward change, efficacious in that it actually gives grace, but moreso a recognition and acceptance of the inward conversion of faith which has already begun to take place.
I suppose that the church does teach that we are bound by the sacraments and not God. There can be baptism by blood or desire I am also aware.
Therfore is it possible that we are made Christians by virtue of our baptism but it does not have to be chronologically before conversion or receiving certain gifts? Is it possible some of us are converted before baptism even though the conversion we experience is somehow linked to a baptism we are later to receive (or through blood or desire if we die first)?
Some are converted before Baptism, some during, and some after. Some never change their ways. Some choose to be baptized for invalid reasons, and even though the grace of the sacrament is available to them, they never open themselves to it. There's a story in Acts (I think ... I'm a cradle Catholic so I don't know chapters and verses  ) of St. Peter coming across a family that had already received the Spirit, so he baptized them. It is possible that someone can come to know Christ from reading Scripture, and present later for sacramental Baptism. Others are drawn in various ways. Some here are prevented from being baptized for one reason or another, such as waiting for a Declaration of Nullity on a previous marriage, but their conversion is certainly already underway. I assure you God will not condemn them simply because their paperwork isn't in order. That's where Baptism of Desire comes in.
I suppose that the church does teach that we are bound by the sacraments and not God. There can be baptism by blood or desire I am also aware.
Another thought I am playing around with is the idea in our faith of realizing the nature of time in eternity and how all is somehow all of time is present to God. Like the Eucharist being the same single sacrifice each day. Or praying for the dead even if they are already in heaven.
That maybe those catachumens being baptized are just fulfilling in their baptism what God has asked us as a church to do, yet how and when He gives the gifts is up to Him?
It's up to God, and it's up to them. The pouring of the water is on the Church's schedule. God is not bound by the calendar, and the Elect are not bound by a ceremony. For many their conversions are already well underway; for others, it has just begun. (It is never complete; we are works in progress until we reach God's Throne.
I'd like to believe that at the same time my friends are already Christian and filled with the Spirit yet through their baptism they will experience what was necessary for their conversion and will receive certain graces that God chose to delay until the baptism occurred.
And I would agree. A family member married a man who wasn't baptized until he was around 50 years old, but he certainly knew Christ. He read his bible daily, and always took care of the less fortunate. He made sure his children were raised in the Catholic faith. He was Christian long before he was baptized.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 07:49 pm |
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brian wrote:To me though conversion does happen at baptism is it not possible to have been made a Christian by God in some mysterious invisible way before this?
Yes, it is. All conversion starts with what theologians call prevenient grace (from “pre-,” before, and “venire,” to come), also called first grace.
God provides all humanity with that first gift which starts the ball rolling. Some people accept it, others reject or ignore it. Those who accept it are then given other graces on which to build their conversion. This can be dead-ended at any time, of course, if the person balks at continuing on the path to conversion, but those who persevere are rewarded with the graces of the sacraments as they begin their lives as Christians.
Another thought I am playing around with is the idea in our faith of realizing the nature of time in eternity and how all is somehow all of time is present to God. Like the Eucharist being the same single sacrifice each day. Or praying for the dead even if they are already in heaven.
This shows that you have learned your lessons well. I remember how you battled with the concept of eternity.
Therefore is it possible that we are made Christians by virtue of our baptism but it does not have to be chronologically before conversion or receiving certain gifts? Is it possible some of us are converted before baptism even though the conversion we experience is somehow linked to a baptism we are later to receive (or through blood or desire if we die first)?
Yes. This is God’s eternal prerogative. We just need to keep in mind the Catholic viewpoint of both/and from an eternal perspective as opposed to either/or from a temporal perspective, because one could say the same thing as a Baptist or a Quaker and mean something entirely different.
I'd like to believe that at the same time my friends are already Christian and filled with the Spirit yet through their baptism they will experience what was necessary for their conversion and will receive certain graces that God chose to delay until the baptism occurred.
This is reasonable. Among adult converts to Christianity, it is probably the most common path. For those baptized in infancy, it is the other way around.
cajunrick wrote:There's a story in Acts (I think ... I'm a cradle Catholic so I don't know chapters and verses) of St. Peter coming across a family that had already received the Spirit, so he baptized them.
See Acts 10, the story of Cornelius, the Roman centurion. But then there is another case that works somewhat the opposite way in Acts 19:1–7. This latter, to me, is significant because it highlights the effectiveness of Christian baptism, as against those who claim that it “does nothing.” Here it is John’s baptism that nothing, while Christian baptism and confirmation bring down the Holy Spirit.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 08:08 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: cajunrick wrote:There's a story in Acts (I think ... I'm a cradle Catholic so I don't know chapters and verses) of St. Peter coming across a family that had already received the Spirit, so he baptized them.
See Acts 10, the story of Cornelius, the Roman centurion.
That's the one I was thinking of. When I'm talking to Protestants, I ask for help like that, too. It makes them feel superior ... and throws them off guard!
But then there is another case that works somewhat the opposite way in Acts 19:1–7. This latter, to me, is significant because it highlights the effectiveness of Christian baptism, as against those who claim that it “does nothing.” Here it is John’s baptism that nothing, while Christian baptism and confirmation bring down the Holy Spirit.
But they show that conversion, Baptism, and Confirmation are all necessary, but that all do not necessarily happen at the same time. And that, of course, reinforces the Truth of the Catholic faith and sacraments.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 08:46 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:But they show that conversion, Baptism, and Confirmation are all necessary, but that all do not necessarily happen at the same time. And that, of course, reinforces the Truth of the Catholic faith and sacraments.
Yes, that was my point.
David
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ecassidy
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Posted: Wed May 23rd, 2007 06:11 pm |
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The Catechism calls baptism the sacrament of faith and says that faith is inseparable from baptism:
1236 - The proclamation of the Word of God enlightens the candidates and the assembly with the revealed truth and elicits the response of faith, which is inseparable from Baptism. Indeed Baptism is "the sacrament of faith" in a particular way, since it is the sacramental entry into the life of faith.
St. Paul says basically the same thing in this passage:
Galatians 3:26-27
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
No matter how many years or even decades separate the moment of faith from the moment of baptism, it is all one act.
Does this sound kosher?
Peace,
Gene
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 23rd, 2007 06:45 pm |
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ecassidy wrote: No matter how many years or even decades separate the moment of faith from the moment of baptism, it is all one act.
Does this sound kosher?
Yes. That also explains how the unbaptized can develop faith, and those who never develop their faith can be baptized. Conversion is a three step process involving repentence, baptism, and confirmation/christmation (Baptism in the Spirit) any of which can come first. Those without access to baptism for whatever reason can still develop faith in God and the gifts of the Spirit, and those too young for a personal faith or spirit conversion can still experience baptism. It is all one act, regardless of how it is separated in time, for God is not constrained by time.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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ecassidy
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 10:59 am |
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Hi Rick,
Thanks for the insight! As a cradle Catholic who experienced conversion outside the confines of the Church (in a Southern Baptist congregation), and stayed outside for 30-plus years, I really struggled with these ideas of baptism, faith, conversion, etc. NOW, it all makes sense.
And its "Scriptural" to boot! :-)
Peace,
Gene
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 12:26 pm |
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ecassidy wrote: And its "Scriptural" to boot! :-)
Imagine that!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 02:51 pm |
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ecassidy wrote: Hi Rick,
Thanks for the insight! As a cradle Catholic who experienced conversion outside the confines of the Church (in a Southern Baptist congregation), and stayed outside for 30-plus years, I really struggled with these ideas of baptism, faith, conversion, etc. NOW, it all makes sense.
And its "Scriptural" to boot! :-)
Peace,
Gene
Ditto Gene, I also am coming to see the Light! God is not restricted to time as we are. Praise God for that. Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Attaflo_5
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 11:37 pm |
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This post on Baptism and Conversion is just precious to me. I read the post in April, but couldn't relate to it, then on May 23 ecassidy wrote "No matter how many years or even decades separate the moment of faith from the moment of baptism, it is all one act."
That resonated for some reason. I've always struggled to understand why it took 45 years for my Baptism to produce the conversion I experienced through the Evangelicals. Through this particular series of posts some of the scales have fallen from my eyes.
God brought me back into the Catholic Faith by "duping" me, but I came to love and appreciate the church and now I am Catholic to my toenails, and accept all the Church teaches. "The Rock" magazine by Catholic Answers had a lot to do with that because of the apologetics they provided.
Thanks to all here on the forum who have contributed to this discussion. To Brian for airing his struggle and Rick for such clear and concise replies, to Gene who gave me the 'lightbulb' moment, and all who added their 2 cents.
Maryellen
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 01:00 am |
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Attaflo_5 wrote: 'lightbulb' moment
Gotta love those lightbulb moments! Especially since the whole thing started with a lightbulb moment:
Let there be light!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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ecassidy
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 11:51 am |
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Maryellen,
Imagine if enough lighbulbs go off in all the evangelical Protestant churches and homes around the country! We'll have a power surge and our parishes will be filled to overflowing.
Peace,
Gene
P.S. A Lutheran pastor tried to explain this concept to me many years ago but I didn't get it at the time.
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 01:07 pm |
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Attaflo_5 wrote: This post on Baptism and Conversion is just precious to me. I read the post in April, but couldn't relate to it, then on May 23 ecassidy wrote "No matter how many years or even decades separate the moment of faith from the moment of baptism, it is all one act."
That resonated for some reason. I've always struggled to understand why it took 45 years for my Baptism to produce the conversion I experienced through the Evangelicals. Through this particular series of posts some of the scales have fallen from my eyes. Perhaps on another thread, you could explain what it was that drew you to evangelical Protestantism and then what drew you back to the Catholic faith. I would love to understand this phenomenon because I know so many ex-Catholics who have become Evangelical Protestants. It was their testimony against the Catholic Church more than anything else that kept me from investigating the Catholic faith on my own.
God brought me back into the Catholic Faith by "duping" me, but I came to love and appreciate the church and now I am Catholic to my toenails, and accept all the Church teaches. "The Rock" magazine by Catholic Answers had a lot to do with that because of the apologetics they provided. Could you explain a little further what you mean by "duping me?"
Thanks to all here on the forum who have contributed to this discussion. To Brian for airing his struggle and Rick for such clear and concise replies, to Gene who gave me the 'lightbulb' moment, and all who added their 2 cents.
Maryellen
Dear Maryellen, I would love to hear your conversion story and why you returned to the Catholic Church. I desire so much to reach the ex-Catholics I know who have become so anti-Catholic and oppositional toward the faith of their upbringing. Love in Christ, Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Attaflo_5
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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2007 06:04 pm |
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Darlene
I've been away from the forum for several days and didn't realize there were posts following mine. (tho' I am subscribed for follow-ups I didn't get an email).
I will write further on this as soon as I get a block of time and will answer your questions. My conversion story is a little long, so I'll work on condensing it while still attempt to give you a concept you can use.
In His Love
Maryellen
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