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Christine Ann
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
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Posted: Wed Oct 18th, 2006 08:41 pm |
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| I was baptised and comfirmed in the Lutheran Church many years ago. I know my baptism is valid with the RCC, but what about my confirmation? Can you explain in simple terms what confirmation means to a Catholic? Is confirmation a sacrament which you prepare for in the RCIA classes? Also, are my communions as a Lutheran considered "invalid" because they were not done by a priest? That is, were they of any spirtual benefit to me? As a Lutheran, I believed in transubstantiation.
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CajunRick
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Oct 18th, 2006 09:56 pm |
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Christine Ann wrote: I was baptised and comfirmed in the Lutheran Church many years ago. I know my baptism is valid with the RCC, but what about my confirmation?
No. Only a validly ordained priest can administer the sacrament of Confirmation.
Can you explain in simple terms what confirmation means to a Catholic?
Confirmation is one of the three sacraments of Initiation. The others are baptism and Eucharist. The three together make someone a fully initiated Catholic. In the Eastern Churches (Orthodox and Catholic), all three sacraments are given at the same time, and Confirmation is called Chrismation. In the Western Church, tradition has separated the sacraments so that they are given individually as awareness of faith deems appropriate. Baptism is normally given shortly after birth based on the faith of the parents; Eucharist is given at the "Age of Reason" which is usually around age 7; Confirmation is reserved for an adult acceptance of faith which may happen at any later age at the discretion of the local bishop; in our diocese, it is in the 11th grade. I was confirmed in seventh grade.
The completion of the three sacraments of initiation makes one an adult Catholic fully responsible for their own faith.
Is confirmation a sacrament which you prepare for in the RCIA classes?
Yes. It is part of the process by which you will be brought into the Catholic Church.
Also, are my communions as a Lutheran considered "invalid" because they were not done by a priest?
Yes. Your Lutheran pastor did not have the ability to transform the bread and wine into the true Body and Blood of Christ.
That is, were they of any spirtual benefit to me?
Absolutely. Your spiritual benefit came from your own faith, and the fact that Jesus is present whenever two or more gather in his name. The grace of the Eucharist is real, but it becomes part of us because of our faith. Without faith, even though the grace is real and present, it cannot reside in us.
As a Lutheran, I believed in transubstantiation.
But your church did not have the ability to properly ordain a minister to stand in the place of Christ.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Br. Rich SFO
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Posted: Wed Oct 18th, 2006 11:42 pm |
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Your Baptism is most likely valid. The Sacrament of Confirmation requires at least the authority of a validly Ordained Bishop. Your Lutheran "confirmation" was invalid. Confirmation is the completion of Baptism. In the early Church the Bishop always Baptized adults and was available to anoint them after Baptism. Later on as today the Bishop is not present at every Baptism. But he is there in spirit, by granting his permission to Confirm an individual with the Oil called Sacred Chrism which was Blessed by him during Holy Week the prior year.
A Candidate may prepare for Confirmation and First Eucharist in RCIA or they may prepare for them in another process like RCIA.
Last edited on Wed Oct 18th, 2006 11:44 pm by Br. Rich SFO
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Gnyssa
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| Joined: | Sat Nov 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
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| First Name: | Gnyssa | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopalian, Roman Catholic since 2003, RC priest 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 09:09 pm |
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Dear Christine,
How wonderful it is that you want to take the Holy Eucharist in the Catholic Church! Praise God! Others have answered your validity questions, but please let me strongly encourage you to speak with your local Catholic parish about the RCIA program, which it may still be possible for you to join, which would open the doors to you entering full Eucharistic fellowship with the Catholic Church this next Easter. Telephone your local Catholic parish and ask to speak with the Director of Religious Education or one of the priests or sisters about this. There is no obligation to join the Church just by talking with them, and I am sure they will be able to answer any questions you may have. May God bless you in your journey!
Gnyssa
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Ruthie
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houston, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | Ruthie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nominal Presbyterian, aetheist, evangelical Christian/Episcopalian, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 10:24 pm |
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Both CajunRick and Br. Rich wrote that confirmation other than in the Catholic Church by a Catholic priest is not valid.
I feel some alarm over this. Can this be true? I originally converted to the Catholic Church in 1989 in Reno, Nevada. Were things different then or there? Both my baptism and my confirmation in the Episcopal Church were considered valid. After attending RCIA classes, all I had to do was make my profession of faith, reciting the Nicene Creed.
I remember feeling disappointed that that was all I had to do because I had already recited the Creed every Sunday as an Episcopalian. I would have loved to be able to receive confirmation in the Catholic Church.
Is there somewhere I can find information on this?
Christine Anne, have you asked the priest this question?
Ruthie
____________________
Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 10:47 pm |
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Ruthie, the sacrament of confirmation requires a validly ordained bishop, either to celebrate or to delegate its celebration to a priest under his jurisdiction. Anglican/Episcopalian orders were a century ago summarily declared invalid with regard to the Catholic Church because they have severed their ties with apostolic succession. I do not know how your Catholic pastor or bishop could let this one slide.
I am aware that a certain few Anglican and Episcopalian priests may claim to be in the line of apostolic succession, since they have been ordained by a bishop outside the Episcopal Church who has somehow maintained apostolic succession (Old Catholic, Polish National Catholic, etc.). But the papal declaration does not recognize this, since there was no official intent on the part of the Anglican or Episcopal Church to preserve proper succession; it is rather on a person’s individual initiative that this is claimed.
I suggest to you that you consult with your current pastor about this issue.
David
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Ruthie
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| First Name: | Ruthie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nominal Presbyterian, aetheist, evangelical Christian/Episcopalian, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 11:55 pm |
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I'm speechless! Wow! Does this mean that all these years I've not really been a Catholic at all? I'm in shock!
Of course I know that the Episcopal priesthood is invalid because of broken apostolic succession. All that was known back then. I remember having to present the certificates for both Baptism and Confirmation that I had received in the Episcopal Church. That's an awfully big mistake to have been made. I was received into the Catholic Church at Our Lady of the Snows in Reno, Nevada in April,1989. I took RCIA classes under Br. Matthew who did everything by the book, following all the Church's teachings in all things. A very conservative, patient, methodical, thorough man. He had been the principal of Bishhop Manogue Catholic High School in Sparks, Nevada. He was a member of the Order of the Brothers of the Holy Rosary in Sparks, Nevada. I just know he would have checked all this out very carefully, conferring with the priests or even the Diocese. I next went to Evergreen, Colorado and when I registered there, this was never questioned there either.
Well, enough said. Of course I will check with the priest when I get home to Houston in February. A long time to wait for such an important question. The priest here in Bothell, Washington is virtually unavailable. Too overwhelmed? I have to say I was a bit offended when he gave absolutely no reply to either my phone message or my email back in September. I'm trying not to be resentful or hold it against him. I will just have to wait until I get back to Houston.
Thank you all for your replies. The three of you are in agreement on this so you must be right.
____________________
Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 12:24 am |
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Ruthie wrote: I'm speechless! Wow! Does this mean that all these years I've not really been a Catholic at all? I'm in shock!
Many practicing Catholics are never confirmed. Confirmation is a choice to proceed to a higher level of faith. It does not make you any less Catholic, it just means you have not taken the "final step" in your initiation.
That's an awfully big mistake to have been made. I was received into the Catholic Church at Our Lady of the Snows in Reno, Nevada in April,1989. I took RCIA classes under Br. Matthew who did everything by the book, following all the Church's teachings in all things.
RCIA was just being established in 1989, and the current ritual had not even been published, so there may have been some misunderanding. Undoubtedly he acted in good faith, but subsequent instruction indictes that he was wrong. The problem is easily corrected.
Well, enough said. Of course I will check with the priest when I get home to Houston in February. A long time to wait for such an important question. The priest here in Bothell, Washington is virtually unavailable. Too overwhelmed? I have to say I was a bit offended when he gave absolutely no reply to either my phone message or my email back in September. I'm trying not to be resentful or hold it against him. I will just have to wait until I get back to Houston.
Please do not hold it against them. The RICA manual and the new code of Canon Law had not been published in 1989. so the post-Vatican II rules were not fully implemented. They were not the only ones who were confused.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 12:26 am |
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Does this mean that all these years I've not really been a Catholic at all?
You’re Catholic, just apparently not confirmed. As I say, it’s best to check it out. Oversights can happen.
I’m the same sort of person Br. Matthew is: conservative, patient, methodical, thorough and doing everything by the book. But I make mistakes. I overlook things on occasion, forget things, etc., especially when rushed or distracted. To err is human.
Fortunately, this question of confirmation is not life-threatening and will certainly wait until you get back to Houston.
David
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Ruthie
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| First Name: | Ruthie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nominal Presbyterian, aetheist, evangelical Christian/Episcopalian, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 01:29 am |
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Thanks, David and Rick . Your answers are very reassuring. I was really starting to get upset.
No I don't hold anything against Br. Matthew. I know things were undergoing change back then and I understand completely that there easily could have been some confusion. (Though I have to say that the RCIA classes seemed beautifully organized and clear.)
I was referring to the parish priest here in Bothell, Washington whom I tried to contact for some spiritual direction on another issue back in September. I phoned and left a message and also contacted him by email after being told that he arranged his own appointments. He did not reply to either. I felt a bit offended by that. So I was thinking that I probably couldn't contact him about this issue either.
Anyway, thanks so much. I won't worry so much now. And I will speak to Fr. Adam when I get home. He does answer his messages and is willing to meet with me.
____________________
Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Nov 23rd, 2006 09:52 am |
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Ruthie wrote:
I was referring to the parish priest here in Bothell, Washington whom I tried to contact for some spiritual direction on another issue back in September. I phoned and left a message and also contacted him by email after being told that he arranged his own appointments. He did not reply to either. I felt a bit offended by that. So I was thinking that I probably couldn't contact him about this issue either.
Some priests, like other humans, are terrible managers of their time. Some priests, like other humans, do not return messages. Be grateful that you found out before you needed him for something critical.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Christine Ann
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | An Hours' Drive From Cincinnati, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 118 |
| First Name: | Christine Ann | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Lutheran, Baptist, now Catholic. |
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Posted: Fri Nov 24th, 2006 01:03 am |
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Dear Gnyssa,
I just tonight read your response to my question on confirmation....I had asked it so long ago, I thought it was a "dead" issue. Anyway, I want to thank you so much for your encouraging response. I do long to take Holy Communion in the Catholic Church...that is where the Holy Spirit began my journey toward it, with a heartfelt longing for communion. I had been attending a Baptist Church with my husband who was Baptist for nearly 15 years. I knew beyond any doubt that when I took communion it was the true body and true blood of Christ and I experienced such wonderful Grace from it as a Lutheran. After 15 years without it, I felt spiritually sickened. But there was no going back to the Lutheran Church of my youth...It had become so secularized, so liberal morally that I could not return. That's when I began looking to the RCC. The Holy Spirit led me to watch the Catholic station EWTN, specifically the program, The Journey Home, where a former Lutheran Minister was relating his journey "home" to the Catholic Church. Something about that word "home" struck my soul like a bolt of lightening and I knew I had to follow that journey "home" for myself.
I am in RCIA classes now, but my desire may be delayed because of a previous marriage...I am hoping to receive a declaration of nullity for my first marriage, so I am praying and patiently waiting for the Lord to bring me along. I may not make it to The Eucharist this Easter, but I think the longer I must wait, the sweeter it will be to be truly joined with Christ once again.
But I am replying to your Nov. 22nd reply because of the sensitivity you showed toward me and the "loss" of my confirmation. It brings me to tears to think that the study and sincerity with which I approached confirmation could be called invalid. I know it is a necessary word, but it seemed so cold and unfeeling toward something I had treasured. I intend to be confirmed in the Catholic Church...I'll not be satisfied until I am fully a member of The Church. And I know it will also be treasured, perhaps more so because of the fullness of Truth that it will represent.
This is a life long journey I'm on and each step of the way has been essential to be where I am today spiritually. I'm very excited about where I am going. This is a huge step for me spiritually and I am overjoyed to be taking it.
Thank you so much for your encouraging spirit!!
In His Love,
Christine Ann
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lia
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 01:46 am |
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Christine Ann wrote: Can you explain in simple terms what confirmation means to a Catholic?
Here's what I learned from my religion teacher when I was in grade school. It's very simple and I like it a lot! 
BAPTISM - Makes you a child of God.
CONFIRMATION - Makes you a SOLDIER of God. 
EUCHARIST - Food for your soul.
CONFESSION/PENANCE - Medicine for your sick soul.
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 03:50 am |
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lia wrote: Christine Ann wrote: Can you explain in simple terms what confirmation means to a Catholic?
Here's what I learned from my religion teacher when I was in grade school. It's very simple and I like it a lot!
BAPTISM - Makes you a child of God.
CONFIRMATION - Makes you a SOLDIER of God.
EUCHARIST - Food for your soul.
CONFESSION/PENANCE - Medicine for your sick soul.
Lia: I like this alot too! What a great way to memorize it in a short simple terminology. You must have had a great religion teacher who taught in ways children could remember.
Thank You for sharing that with us
God Bless
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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garyb444
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| Location: | Sacramento, California USA |
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| First Name: | Gary | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal, Fundamentalist, SDA, Eastern/New Age/Spiritualism, to Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Sep 8th, 2007 02:14 pm |
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I am glad to read about this now. I am just starting RCIA, and I was also baptized and confirmed Episcopal. I will ask the priest or deacon at our church to make sure I am going to get confirmed again.
I can relate to Christie Ann - my Episcopal confirmation was very special to me too. My parents gave me a beautiful King James bible illustrated with artwork from the Sistine Chapel (which I still have). I still have the cake wafer from my confirmation cake, as well as the pressed carnation I wore. That was almost 40 years ago! But I don't have a problem going through it again. After all the different spiritual paths I've been on since then, I think I need it to help me to make a new commitment. And in many ways, the Catholic church of today reminds me of the Episcopal church I went to years ago, so I feel like I'm coming home.
Thanks for a good discussion,
Gary
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heardclarke
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| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 12:15 am |
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It felt odd to me at first, too, to discover that my baptism was valid but my communion and confirmation were not.
And yet, the "modernist" Episcopalians had, in a sense, told me that long before....that my ideas on faith, the sacraments, and the Church were anachronistic, immature, and simplistic; that "mature" people of faith believed in pluralism and called it being "open." I had already been a sheep without a shepherd for a very long time.
At first, I thought that if I personally believed that the consecrated elements were the Body and Blood of Christ, that made it OK. I knew many others did not worry much about what they were, and that they would think my view was primitive at best. (The Anglican church is ALL about the individual and his/her right to choose their own way.)
It was only after I began to go to mass weekly (and Benediction sometimes too!), because of my teaching job, that I realized there was this whole other world of believers right there next to me. And I realized....if these Catholic people are right, then the Episcopal church has to be wrong. Not just about a few things, but about a lot of things, because it is all part of one big pattern or tapestry of beliefs.
I had some good early direction from Episcopal priests (including my own dad) who were trying hard to keep their church as orthodox as possible. Doubtless it was largely due to them that I was able to recognize the Truth when the time came. Ironically, I now know that at least three of these priests are now Roman Catholics themselves.
Deo Gratias!
____________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 12:37 am |
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heardclarke wrote: It felt odd to me at first, too, to discover that my baptism was valid but my communion and confirmation were not.
The difference is that in the case of baptism, the Church believes the words and water are efficacious in themselves, so anyone is a valid minister of baptism. The other sacraments are dependent on the minister's ordination. An Episcopalian baptism is not valid because of the minister, but almost in spite of him. It would be just as valid if performed by a Baptist preacher, a Muslim Imam, or an athiest nurse. As long as the water that is used is true water and the words are correct, the baptism is valid.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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heardclarke
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Posted: Mon Sep 10th, 2007 08:11 am |
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Yes, that is actually one of the biggest differences, I think. Baptism is done with an infant, mostly, in the Episcopal church, so everyone understands that that the individual is NOT the one "in charge" at that juncture. But later in that church it seems as if the community (at communion) is doing most all the action, and at confirmation it seems as if the individual is making a decision and the bishop is just "confirming" that.
I really appreciate the objectivity of the Catholic faith, odd as it may seem. Actions are objectively right or wrong, valid or invalid!
Lisa
____________________
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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