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Esther
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Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 10:18 pm |
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| One of the young ladies in a bible study I am leading told me that her mother told her she was confirmed as an infant in Mexico (In a Roman Catholic church). I know in the Eastern Churches this is normal practice. Since this took place in a Catholic church, would it still be valid? I am having some difficulty discussing it with her priest due to the language barrier. My initial thought was that it is valid, but wanted to confirm this before I discussed it with her further.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 11:19 pm |
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If it was actually done by the bishop or his specific delegate, it would be valid. But since this is not the practice in the Latin Church, I suspect the young lady’s mother is confusing confirmation with baptism.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 11:28 pm |
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Anointing takes place within the baptismal rite. It is not the same as confirmation. In the Roman Catholic Church, confirmation cannot take place before the age of reason, so it is highly unlikely that the child was validly confirmed. Even in danger of death, a child who has not yet reached the age of reason is not to be confirmed.
Also, no priest has the faculties to confirm except at the Easter Vigil without the express, written consent of the bishop. This is normally reserved to particular circumstances or to the chancellor or dean who may confirm in the bishop's place in a large diocese.
As many years as I've been involved in the Church, I have seen a priest who is not a bishop confirm twice besides at the Easter Vigil. In one case, a man with a heart condition was awaiting a Declaration of Nullity and so was not eligible to be baptized at the Easter Vigil. Instead, at the Solemnity of the Baptism of the Lord, he was baptised, confirmed, received Eucharist, and married. The other time was while our diocese was without a bishop and the apostolic administrator administered confirmation.
And finally, in the Latin rites, confirmation must be requested, so even if it was properly administered by a priest who had faculties, I doubt if it was valid.
One minor qualification: You mention that it took place in a Roman Catholic Church, but you did not say the priest was a Roman Catholic priest. If the mother belonged to one of the Eastern Catholic Churches and the priest was an Eastern Catholic or biritual priest, he could have properly chrismated the infant. But frankly that's a pretty far stretch.
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Rick Luquette
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lia
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 01:35 am |
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A year after my baptism (1973) I was confirmed, so was my older brother (born 1970). I think this was the practice in the Philippines in the 70's. The Catholics in the Philippines are of the Latin Rite.
Lia
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 01:47 am |
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lia wrote: A year after my baptism (1973) I was confirmed, so was my older brother (born 1970). I think this was the practice in the Philippines in the 70's. The Catholics in the Philippines are of the Latin Rite.
I assume that you mean you were baptized as an infant and confirmed at one year old. Is that correct?
The current regulations went into effect when the Code of Canon Law was revised in 1983. They are still not implemented fully in all dioceses, and exceptions have been granted in some places for cultural or other pastoral reasons. In the Eastern Rites, chrismation is part of the initiation process that also includes baptism and Eucharist, and all three sacraments are given to infants.
However, in this case, I suspect that the parent was confused by the baptismal anointing and only thought the child had been confirmed.
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lia
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 07:15 pm |
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Yes, I was baptized a month after I was born and confirmed a year after I was baptized. I have both certificates for both sacraments and god parents for both occations 
But these days confirmation are for kids starting at 12 years old, I think. My nephew is still to be confirmed. And at our parish, they make it once, a year. Cathecism will be given to poor kids and when the time is right, (I think during the feast of our parish) they'll get confirmed by the bishop.
Fortunately for Catholics here in my country, even if there is a separation of church and state, children in public schools can be taught cathecism. I was in public school when I made my first confession and communion. The confession place was held in the school and it was from the same public school to the Church to take our first communion. 
And in most government offices, a first friday mass is held every month and holydays of obligations. Now isn't that cool!
Lia
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 10:34 pm |
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Very interesting, Lia.
Meanwhile, it has just dawned on me that perhaps the inconsistency for the report from Mexico is to be found in the language used. The Spanish word for “childhood” is infancia. If the woman’s mother had said something like, “Fui confirmada en mi infancia,” the daughter, with a less than perfect understanding of Spanish and experience only of the current sacramental custom in the US (confirmation deferred until well into one’s teens), may have misunderstood this as “in my infancy,” when what the mother had meant was “when I was a child.” Childhood can be up to 12 or 13 years of age for a Mexican girl.
I am aware that such misunderstandings actually happen. For instance, when I was in college (a long, long time ago!) there was a Cuban in one of my classes. He was struggling with the subject matter, which was being taught on a level considerably beyond his ability. The professor wondered what the problem was, especially since he knew the young man had filled out an application for advanced placement, saying that he “had attended college in Cuba.” After a little discussion, it was discovered that the young Cuban had confused the Spanish word “colegio” (grammar school) with the English word “college” (university). Boy, was he embarassed!
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2006 11:12 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: [size=it was discovered that the young Cuban had confused the Spanish word “colegio” (grammar school) with the English word “college” (university).]
There must be something similar in French. I attended a Catholic school called Thibodaux College from fourth to eighth grade!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Dec 21st, 2006 12:32 am |
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According to my Larousse, the French word collège refers to a “secondary school,” what we in today’s USA would call a “middle school.” This would correspond exactly to your tenure at Thibodaux College. (Note that this is different from the definition of colegio in Spanish, which refers to a “primary school,” grades one through three. The Spanish word for “middle school” is secundaria.)
Through Google I located a photograph of a three story schoolhouse labeled “Thibodaux College” in the LOUIS Libraries at LSU. The caption mistakenly describes it as “actually a high school,” probably (once again!) based on a misunderstanding of the word “secondaire” as referring to what we would call a “secondary school,” that is, a high school. The caption goes on to report that the building is “no longer standing.”
People seldom think of culture and history as so intimately connected with linguistics, but you can see from the blunders I’ve discussed in this thread why a translator’s total competency is so vital. Can you imagine if someone attempted to translate the bible in this manner? Yet it has happened.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Dec 21st, 2006 01:25 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: [size=Through Google I located a photograph of a three story schoolhouse labeled “Thibodaux College” in the LOUIS Libraries at LSU. The caption mistakenly describes it as “actually a high school,” probably (once again!) based on a misunderstanding of the word “secondaire” as referring to what we would call a “secondary school,” that is, a high school. The caption goes on to report that the building is “no longer standing.”
]
It was actually fourth through 12th grade. My brother was in the last graduating class. The building was destroyed by Hurricane Betsy in 1965. It was an all-boys school operated by the Brothers of the Sacred Heart.
A companion school, Mt. Carmel Academy, was the girls' school, and boys and girls attended school together at MCA through the third grade. The Sisters of Mt. Carmel operated MCA. I never attended school there.
If my memory is correct, MCA was built in 1856 and TC in 1912. MCA has been thoroughly renovated and converted into a motel, but the original building is still standing. Many of the nun's cells have been converted into motel rooms. God only knows what goes on in there now!  We went there for a Marriage Encounter Weekend in the 80's, but every time I closed my eyes I imagined a nun sleeping on a bed in the corner! 
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Ruthie
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Posted: Thu Dec 21st, 2006 01:45 am |
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David,
In Mexico a colegio is a primary school only? What do they call the secondary schools?
I grew up in Lima, Peru. There the schools usually included all the grades, kindergarten through what would be senior graduating class. They were all called colegios. I went to Colegio San Silvestre, a British girls' school (K through 12 equivalent) and then went to Colegio Roosevelt, an American School (also K though 12). There were many, many schools, all colegios. I remember the nearest Catholic school was Colegio Santa Maria (also K through 12 equivalent).
Then there was Universidad de San Marcos, the main college of Lima, not a colegio.
Oh well, off topic.
Ruthie
Last edited on Thu Dec 21st, 2006 01:47 am by Ruthie
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Dec 21st, 2006 06:14 pm |
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Yes, definitely moving off topic, Ruthie. I guess we can blame cajunrick for originally pulling us off topic by commenting on my linguistic analysis of the original assertion concerning confirmation. (He admits to having a penchant for this.) But I will answer anyway to close out.
In Mexico a colegio is a primary school only? What do they call the secondary schools?
The Mexican public schools are organized according to the European system into primary (grades K–3), secondary (grades 4–7) and college preparatory (grades 8–12) schools. Colegio refers to the primary grades. As stated above, secundaria refers to the secondary grades. Finally, preparatoria (or “prepa” for short) refers to high school. This last is optional since it is designed for those going on to college (universidad).
There is a Catholic school in Matamoros, Tamaulipas (the city across the Rio Grande from me) which follows the K–12 model, and it is referred to as an academia, “academy.” Technical-vocational schools are usually called “tecnológicos.”
I know a good number of people whose home is on the other side of the river, so I’ve learned quite a lot about the way things operate there. But Peru is another country and another culture. I am not familiar with its public education setup.
I note that the schools you attended were not the local public schools but private academies for foreign students, and that they followed the same unified British system (K–12) that was in vogue in the United States for many years. Even the K–12 Catholic school you mention was probably run by missionaries according to a different model than the public schools.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Dec 21st, 2006 07:13 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: [size=(He admits to having a penchant for this.)]
Who, me? 
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Prodigal Son
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 03:13 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Anointing takes place within the baptismal rite. It is not the same as confirmation. In the Roman Catholic Church, confirmation cannot take place before the age of reason, so it is highly unlikely that the child was validly confirmed. Even in danger of death, a child who has not yet reached the age of reason is not to be confirmed. [...]
And finally, in the Latin rites, confirmation must be requested, so even if it was properly administered by a priest who had faculties, I doubt if it was valid.
One minor qualification: You mention that it took place in a Roman Catholic Church, but you did not say the priest was a Roman Catholic priest. If the mother belonged to one of the Eastern Catholic Churches and the priest was an Eastern Catholic or biritual priest, he could have properly chrismated the infant. But frankly that's a pretty far stretch.
Dear Rick,
It may very well be that in the Roman Rite that "[e]ven in danger of death, a child who has not yet reached the age of reason is not to be confirmed," but I would think that if it was indeed done to an infant of the Roman Rite by a priest in valid orders using a valid formula with Sacred Chrism consecrated by a valid Bishop, that such a Confirmation (Chrismation) could not be considered invalid. Now it might be termed illicit, even if it was done in ignorance. I cannot believe that a person under the age of reason is invalid matter for Confirmation because it is the norm to Chrismate infants in the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome. What you are suggesting would mean that the Confirmation done in infancy was invalid so it should actually be repeated once the person reaches the normal age of Confirmation in the Roman Rite. Confirmation, according to Catholic teaching, is an indelible sacrament, is it not? To repeat it later woyld be a sacriledge, I would think.
Fr David
Last edited on Thu Feb 14th, 2008 03:15 am by Prodigal Son
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 12:10 pm |
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Prodigal Son wrote: What you are suggesting would mean that the Confirmation done in infancy was invalid so it should actually be repeated once the person reaches the normal age of Confirmation in the Roman Rite. Confirmation, according to Catholic teaching, is an indelible sacrament, is it not? To repeat it later woyld be a sacriledge, I would think.
The sacrament could be repeated conditionally without sacriledge. I believe sacriledge would only become a possibility if there was evidence that the sacrament was conferred, and in this case there was apparently none. The original question dealt with a claim that an infant was confirmed, which you will agree is highly doubtful if the priest was of the Latin Rite. If indeed there is no evidence and no sacramental record of confirmation/chrismation, the presumption would be that Canon Law was followed. If the priest was of an Eastern Rite (Catholic or Orthodox) the presumption would be that the child was chrismated, and the sacrament ordinarily would not be repeated, even conditionally.
Or at least that is my opinion, which is of course not definitive.
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Rick Luquette
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 02:08 pm |
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My friend was baptized and confirmed at one month old- but she says the younger members of her family followed a traditional Roman Rite path...She Doesn't know why out of the family she was treated differently.
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 09:23 pm |
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I had a similar discussion at Church with someone who was Baptised in the Roman Church and Chrismated. I still don't understand it, but they said the Chrismation took place and then later they have the Confirmation - making a decision for Christ. So I don't know. I thought maybe they were just blessed with holy oil, but they said not it was the chrism of the bishop. This is in Alabama. I am inclined to think though, that they really didn't understand the annointing that was taking place. I don't know for sure.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 01:36 am |
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Pani Rose wrote: I had a similar discussion at Church with someone who was Baptised in the Roman Church and Chrismated. I still don't understand it, but they said the Chrismation took place and then later they have the Confirmation - making a decision for Christ. So I don't know. I thought maybe they were just blessed with holy oil, but they said not it was the chrism of the bishop. This is in Alabama. I am inclined to think though, that they really didn't understand the annointing that was taking place. I don't know for sure.
The Rite of Baptism in the Latin Church uses the Oil of Catechumens and the Oil of Chrism. It is not "Chrismation/Confirmation" but an introduction into the priesthood of the baptized. The Oil of Chrism is actually used for three sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, and Holy Orders.
From the Catechism:
1241 The anointing with sacred chrism, perfumed oil consecrated by the bishop, signifies the gift of the Holy Spirit to the newly baptized, who has become a Christian, that is, one "anointed" by the Holy Spirit, incorporated into Christ who is anointed priest, prophet, and king.
1242 In the liturgy of the Eastern Churches, the post-baptismal anointing is the sacrament of Chrismation (Confirmation). In the Roman liturgy the post- baptismal anointing announces a second anointing with sacred chrism to be conferred later by the bishop: Confirmation, which will as it were "confirm" and complete the baptismal anointing.
The baptismal anointing is administered by the deacon or priest who is the minister of baptism; the second anointing, Confirmation, is normally reserved to the bishop except when the Sacraments of Initiation are administered together at the Easter Vigil, in which case the standard practice of the Eastern Churches is followed in the Latin Church as well.
That's why I doubt that the Sacrament of Confirmation was actually conferred on an infant in the Latin Rite. However, it is possible, and if a certificate of Confirmation was given along with a certificate of Baptism, I would believe it. Otherwise, no.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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germangreek
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: [size=People seldom think of culture and history as so intimately connected with linguistics, but you can see from the blunders I’ve discussed in this thread why a translator’s total competency is so vital. Can you imagine if someone attempted to translate the bible in this manner? Yet it has happened.]
Have you ever compared our liturgical texts in English with the original Latin? 'nuff said!
When my son was in second grade a classmate who had never been baptized was received into the Church along with most of the rest of her family at the Easter Vigil. The rest of the class had to wait until a month or so later to make their First Communions, and until eighth grade for Confirmation, so she leapt right ahead of them all. I believe I understand that the Church is moving toward the Eastern practice, to the extent that a child old enough to understand will receive all three initiatory sacraments at once.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 02:48 am |
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germangreek wrote:Have you ever compared our liturgical texts in English with the original Latin? 'nuff said!
I have, Richard. Also with translations into other languages. And I agree. Most of the time there is serious doubt whether the same text is being translated.
Many of the current English liturgical texts are not a translation at all, but an original composition. An example:
Latin: Mortem tua annuntiámus, Dómine, et tuam resurrectiónem confitémur, donec vénias. “We proclaim your death, O Lord, and your resurrection acknowledge, until your coming.”
Spanish: Anunciamos tu muerte, proclamamos tu resurrección, hasta que vuelvas. “We announce your death, we proclaim your resurrection, until you return.”
English: “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.” Where is the direct address to Christ present on the altar that makes this acclamation meaningful?
I believe I understand that the Church is moving toward the Eastern practice, to the extent that a child old enough to understand will receive all three initiatory sacraments at once.
What I see in many current standards and customs is not a leaning toward the Eastern practice, but a proclivity to illiteracy and anarchy. Not that the example you give is necessarily indicative of either. Any bishop has the authority to determine if a child under his jurisdiction is ready for first communion or confirmation.
But let us give the Church a chance. The Mass is in the process of being retranslated according to stricter rules than those which obtained in the above. And the discipline of the sacraments is being progressively strengthened.
David
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Prodigal Son
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 12:01 am |
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lia wrote: A year after my baptism (1973) I was confirmed, so was my older brother (born 1970). I think this was the practice in the Philippines in the 70's. The Catholics in the Philippines are of the Latin Rite.
Lia
On another List, I found out some information that may explain the anomaly of a Roman Rite infant being Confirmed immediately after Baptism in the Philippines:
"There were, however, faculties given to priests in the far reaches of the Spanish Empire to confirm immediately after baptism. If I am not mistaken, these are still retained by the Roman clergy in the American Southwest."
I would assume that this special granting of faculties for Roman Rite priests to Confirm a baby immediately after Baptism had to do with the fact that there were few Bishops in the far reaches of the Spanish Colonial Empire and there was a fear that many Catholics would thus never be Confirmed. And remember, before the beginning of the Twentieth Century, Confirmation was ordinarily a prerequisite for receiving Holy Communion, so unconfirmed adults could not receive Holy Communion. (By the way, I also remember reading the Queen Elisabeth I was Confirmed immediately after her Baptism as an infant. So there are other historical precedents for infant Confirmation in the Western Church.) The mystery may be solved.
Fr David
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Prodigal Son
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 12:12 am |
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Esther wrote: One of the young ladies in a bible study I am leading told me that her mother told her she was confirmed as an infant in Mexico (In a Roman Catholic church). I know in the Eastern Churches this is normal practice. Since this took place in a Catholic church, would it still be valid? I am having some difficulty discussing it with her priest due to the language barrier. My initial thought was that it is valid, but wanted to confirm this before I discussed it with her further.
And Mexico was, of course, also in the Spanish Colonial Empire. It is sometimes difficult to change a practice that has been officially permitted by the Church, even when it is out of step with the rest of the Roman Rite.
An analogy to this might be some officially permitted local practices such as Communion of the Laity in the hand in the United States. Though, of course permission for this has not been withdrawn (at least yet), there are those who view it as a failed experiment. Were permission for the practice now to be withdrawn, I am sure many who are used to the practice would be unhappy. The practice might not die out immediately. I would think that this is exactly what has happened in the case of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist cleansing the Sacred Vessels. Permission for the practice has now been withdrawn by Rome, yet I think we would be naive to think it has stopped everywhere.
Fr David
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germangreek
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | Lansing, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 21 |
| First Name: | Richard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, (Charismatic and still) Catholic |
| Status: |
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Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 12:13 am |
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I would prefer that preparation for confirmation provide better explanation of what the sacrament is about. Lacking that, the Eastern practice has a lot to commend it, as the question of the difference between the conferral of Holy Spirit in Baptism and Confirmation doesn't then come up.
We in Michigan, I recently learned, are also the beneficiaries of a special dispensation.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701338.htm
But I haven't seen muskrat on the menu at the St. Casimir Fish Fry!
regards,
germangreek
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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