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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 02:39 pm |
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One thing that I realized or read at some point as an evangelical, was how popular the phrase asking Jesus in onto your heart was. It was a sort of invitation we used to sort of try to convert people isntantly. Now, I still don't have a big problem with asking this, though maybe with a truncated view of conversion I suppose it can be a tad harmful. I think inviting Christ into one's life or heart is always a good thing and can and has been very effective in bringing about a deeper conversion. Anyway the thing that was pointed out to me, was how the bible nowhere really uses this formula and seldom (if ever) uses the phrase. While there are references to Chrsit being in us, or formed in us, much more common is the phrase being in Christ. It is more common for the bible to refer to us as being in Christ than Christ being in us. I wonder if perhaps it means roughly the same thing. I know we are indwelt by the Trinity (is this correct) but I also know we are invited into them and their perfect love.
So anyway, If we are in Christ, somehow seated with him in the heavenly realms and whatnot, and the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, in some figurative, mystical or real way, are we somehow present as well in the Eucharist? Now I know that the subject union with God or theosis, is one where the church teaches that while we achieve a certain union with God, it is never one of full unity that we cease to be creatures and God separate from us in His identity. This is confusing as well. But If we adore Jesus in the Eucharist, are we somehow a part of Him, or are there thoughts of us and love for us contained within? Are we (the church) somehow in the element I adore being loved and protected, or is the eucharist only Jesus Christ? Is any other part of the trinity present in the Eucharist since they are completely one with eachother?
For instance I read that before transubstantiation takes place the gift/sacrifice of bread we offer represent us. We are presenting ourselves on the altar and just as the elements are transformed we are transformed as well.
Anyway, am I on any dangerous track here?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 03:10 pm |
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Your thinking is good, Brian. No need to change anything. Asking Jesus into your heart is just a way of desiring union with him. He does the same with us; this is why we Catholics have a devotion to his Sacred Heart. And as you say, this is more biblical than the Protestant way. It is also less subjective and “possessive,” which is good. “He must increase; I must decrease,” said John the Baptist, for humility is the beginning of all holiness. If you would meditate on such passages as John 17:22–23, you will encounter the best way to understand this union.
As to your thoughts about the Eucharist, once again I see nothing wrong with them. We partake of Christ in the sacrament in order to “become” Christ through grace, so as to deal in charity with both God the Father and our neighbor. In this way, the neighbor comes to “see Christ” in us and to desire what we have, leading to his own conversion and incorporation into Christ. This is how Christian unity is achieved.
Finally, you ask about the offertory of the Mass, where through our gifts we offer ourselves to God. This is absolutely true. If we don’t do this, we are acting as if God doesn’t care about our hearts, but only about what material possessions we are willing to part with to “enrich” him. No, everything already belongs to God. He wants me, not my earthly wealth.
David
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brian
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 11:22 pm |
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Thank you David.
so then, what about my question if any other parts of the trinity are in the Eucharist?
And you are aaying it is ok in some sense to believe that we are somehow mystically in the Eucharist? That being in "Christ" and Christ being the Eucharist we are somehow spiritually joined with Him there.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 12:07 am |
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And you are saying it is ok in some sense to believe that we are somehow mystically in the Eucharist? That being in "Christ" and Christ being the Eucharist we are somehow spiritually joined with Him there.
We are definitely “spiritually joined” with Christ in the Eucharist every time we receive the sacrament. This is the doctrinally stated purpose of the Eucharist. It is what makes us function as members of his mystical body.
So then, what about my question if any other parts of the Trinity are in the Eucharist?
With due allowance for your terminology (“parts” doesn’t work where God is concerned; we use the word Persons), there is a theological principle which says that all of God’s actions ad extra (outside of his own internal operations) are the work of all three Persons together. This is specific confirmation that the Father and the Holy Spirit are present in the Eucharist as well as the Son. The mode of their presence is not the same, however, since only the Son is present in his humanity as well as his divinity.
David
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brian
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 12:35 am |
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| Just to further clarify, I mean not in receiving the sacrament, but if I am just in adoration staring at the Eucharist, but never receive that particular host. Am I present "In Christ" in the very host that I am adoring, but not receiving.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 01:08 am |
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brian wrote:
Just to further clarify, I mean not in receiving the sacrament, but if I am just in adoration staring at the Eucharist, but never receive that particular host. Am I present "In Christ" in the very host that I am adoring, but not receiving.
OK, now you are distinguishing “spiritual union” from “sacramental union.”
You can make a spiritual communion when you are in the adoration chapel. I often do. If you are united to Christ in other ways (such as through your baptism or through your union of wills), you may not be sacramentally united with Christ, but you are spiritually united with him, and he is also present in the host before you. This is of great efficacy, even if it is not equal to actually receiving the sacrament. Is it that much different from being supernaturally filled with the Holy Spirit while witnessing that the same Spirit fills the whole universe by his power and immensity?
David
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Ray2007
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Posted: Sun May 20th, 2007 07:53 am |
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There is only One Christ. He is present in that special way we aptly describe as transsubstantiation in each and every consecrated Host or particle. As has been mentioned, the Father and the Holy Spirit are also present as is the entire Communion of the Saints, that is all those who are in union with Christ through sanctifying grace. But the object of the Eucharist is Christ Himself, really, truly and substantially present and as for me I dwell upon that. But your meditation is excellent and along the lines you are thinking two scriptures come to mind.
John 14:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22: The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23: I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. [RSV]
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. [RSV]
The Eucharist is the Summit of the Christian life.
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