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brian
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Posted: Fri Apr 20th, 2007 03:10 pm |
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If you were running late to mass for whatever reason say there was an accident or you just took too long geting there, how much of the mass should one be present for in order to receive communion? Is there a rule about this? I see people walk in late all the time and still receive so I think while it is better to be early it is still better to receive than not to if you happen to be late. And more importantly at what point would you need to go to another mass in order to fulfill your obligation?
Also, what if you forget (not intentionally) to bless yourself with the holy water and genuflect? Is this seen as wrong, or soemthing that would make you less worthy to receive?
And lastly is it ok to chew the Eucharist a bit? does it matter? Should you only chew as much as necessary? Is there a level of respectful partaking.
Sorry if this should be three or two separate posts. But I see all these questions as related to the same topic which is if there is anything I need to know about receiving or not receiving the Eucharist is diferent circumstances.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Apr 20th, 2007 05:30 pm |
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brian wrote: If you were running late to mass for whatever reason say there was an accident or you just took too long geting there, how much of the mass should one be present for in order to receive communion?
You should be there at least from the Offertory to Holy Communion to fulfill your obligation. If you are truly unavoidably detained, you do not have to attend another mass, but you certainly should if you are able.
Also, what if you forget (not intentionally) to bless yourself with the holy water and genuflect? Is this seen as wrong, or soemthing that would make you less worthy to receive?
No. Not everyone blesses themselves, and many do not understand why they do it. Genuflection is a sign of respect; you may do it or not, or bow profoundly, or make another appropriate sign of respect as you see fit.
And lastly is it ok to chew the Eucharist a bit? does it matter? Should you only chew as much as necessary? Is there a level of respectful partaking.
It is OK to chew as necessary. God gave you your teeth also. Prior to Vatican II the common practice was to allow the host to dissolve on your tongue. That is no longer required. There is no "appropriate" number or method of chews. Once or a hundred times are perfectly acceptable. This is the Lord's Supper, and he says "take and eat" not "take and don't chew too many times".
Sorry if this should be three or two separate posts. But I see all these questions as related to the same topic which is if there is anything I need to know about receiving or not receiving the Eucharist is diferent circumstances.
Combining them in a single post is fine as they all deal with the Eucharist. However, you are examining the letter of the law too strictly. This is what Jesus chided the Pharisees for. Maintain a respectful attitude, do your best, and all will be fine.
Last edited on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 08:29 pm by CajunRick
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Ali
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 11:25 am |
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cajunrick wrote:
Not everyone blesses themselves
I do not. My baptism is not valid, and I don't feel comfortable doing so, as our priest routinely says "it is a reminder of our baptism" So since mine isn't valid, it doesn't feel right for me to bless myself with the water. Maybe I'm wrong, but IMO, it's a matter of conscious, and mine is holding me back.
Ali
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 12:45 pm |
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DON'T wait till you finish RCIA -- Knock on any parish rectory door and insist that you want to be received into the Church and baptised Catholic.
Seeing that you haven't had a valid baptism yet, you have an urgent need and I can't imagine any priest sticking to any pre-set schedule for being at least baptised. Then you attend RCIA so you'll be able to enjoy the fullness of the Faith.
Even though you won't be able to receive communion, at least you'll be able to participate in the Mass, follow our traditions, bless yourself, etc., and not feel the least bit uncomfortable.
C'mon In, Sister!
(Wow - I've got to catch myself sometimes. Didn't that sound Baptist or evangelical?)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 01:02 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote:
DON'T wait till you finish RCIA -- Knock on any parish rectory door and insist that you want to be received into the Church and baptised Catholic.
That's not the way it works, Steven. Candidates (those previously baptized) may be received at any time, but the Church is clear that catechumens (those not previously baptized) should be received only at the Easter Vigil, unless there are serious reasons do to otherwise.
Ali, you do not need to refrain from blessing yourself. In your case it would not be a reminder of baptism but anticipation, but you are certainly already capable of receiving blessings from God.
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 02:49 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: you are certainly already capable of receiving blessings from God.
Oh, I do know that. My life is way more blessed and I have so much ~peace~ in my soul than I ever knew or experienced before. Thanks, though 
Ali
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 03:11 pm |
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Cajunrick,
Thanks for the correction. Now, what if a person has been baptized as an infant into the Congregationalist Church, received confirmation as an Episcopalian as an adult, and later joined a local American Baptist. Would she be able to come right in w/o RCIA? I'm referring to my wife. She may be put off by what she thinks might be a complicated set of procedures to become Catholic and your correction of my prior post may have given me great help should the (Blessed) day ever come that she does express a more than vaguely hinted desire to become Catholic.
She has been traditionally baptized and confirmed and she's better informed about what Catholicism is and isn't. Right now she's sorta in-between evangelical Baptist beliefs (and a familiar congregational setting) and not terribly excited one way or the other. I just don't want to look like I'm trying to manipulate her, but it would be helpful to have some solid info on hand.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 04:12 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: Would she be able to come right in w/o RCIA?
Technically yes, although many dioceses and parishes would still expect her to participate in the full program as a Candidate for Full Communion. It is up to the pastor to determine whether RCIA is the proper program. But the Church encourages the admission of candidates on a Sunday other than Easter.
The Rite allows for a combined process for catechumens and candidates, if in the case of necessity the two groups are combined for admission. And that is the normal procedure in the United States.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 04:57 pm |
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Thanks for info. Gotta gut hunch that the Springfield (MA) Diocese will make her go through the class. But it's great to have the info you gave me.
Steven
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For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 03:26 am |
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brian wrote: If you were running late to mass for whatever reason say there was an accident or you just took too long geting there, how much of the mass should one be present for in order to receive communion? Is there a rule about this? I see people walk in late all the time and still receive so I think while it is better to be early it is still better to receive than not to if you happen to be late. And more importantly at what point would you need to go to another mass in order to fulfill your obligation?
Also, what if you forget (not intentionally) to bless yourself with the holy water and genuflect? Is this seen as wrong, or soemthing that would make you less worthy to receive?
And lastly is it ok to chew the Eucharist a bit? does it matter? Should you only chew as much as necessary? Is there a level of respectful partaking.
Sorry if this should be three or two separate posts. But I see all these questions as related to the same topic which is if there is anything I need to know about receiving or not receiving the Eucharist is diferent circumstances.
Brian,
Actually, I guess Rick pretty much answered, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents' worth...
It always stuck in my mind what my 6th Grade teacher said (this was in Catholic grade-school): That for one to receive Communion, they should be there at least in time for the Gospel. That's a rule of thumb I've always lived by personally. I might add, since it's sort of a related topic, that one is also expected to stay at least until the final blessing (you may find a number of Catholics doing the "Judas Shuffle" after Communion... they just "eat and run" so to speak - they go to Communion, bypass the pew where they were sitting and head straight out the door... Shameless!), but they should be staying for the Blessing. Even anytime when I've been in a real hurry - like if I have to serve at something right after Mass and need time to get there before everyone else - I at least stand in the back and before leaving, wait for the Blessing, which is right before the Recessional Hymn.
As far as blessing yourself and genuflecting, well... these are gestures of respect, but not a matter of grave sin if you don't do it, so it's not even a question of unworthiness.
As for chewing the Host, like Rick said, pre-Vatican II, it was the practice to let it dissolve on one's tongue - out of some sense of respect or sensitivity, I suppose. But since then, there have been some developments made, and if I'm not mistaken, I've even heard some scholars to be almost encouraging people to "masticate" since the Greek meaning of the word "to eat" that Jesus used when He said to "take and eat " is translated to mean "to munch" or "to gnaw." If that is true, then dissolving on the tongue doesn't quite fit, eh? Personally, I just sort of chew the Host softly a couple of times and then let it finish dissolving... but that's just me and there's no set way to do it.
Well, hope this helps just a little - or at least gives you something to chew on.
JMJ
- Cheri
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brian
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 05:58 am |
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Thanks, although I was looking for a technical answer. I actually was lost in a town in Indiana the other day and the map from mapquest gave us the wrong directions to the mass. We did not make it till around the time of the creed, but I remembered Rick's advice and felt like it was ok to receive and consider my obligation met. I also considered it would not have been sin at all if we had missed it because we tried our best to get there and just got lost. I would have liked to stay for the next mass to get the whole thing, but i was a guest and needed to comply with everyone elses plans.
Also, I was supposing thsat if one is sick or in a hospital people can just take the communion to them and they are not required to be at any part of the mass. I am assuming this is because they physically can not but Jesus would still be willing to give Himself to us in these states of need.
I also have been wondering if I prefer finishing the Precious Body before getting the Precious Blood, but lately I have been making sure the Body is at least secure and drinking some of the Blood with the host still in my mouth. I think this works well, but I hope it is ok. I think Rick already told me that it was.
I was wondering today if it seems weird to anyone that we practice a religion which perhaps the main part of consists of eating our God. I mean, it is weird to eat one's God. I wasn't sure what to make of this potentially irreverent thought. Just that it was not like we are consuming Him. Or that we are destroying Him. In fact, He is consuming us as we feast on Him. And that this is a supernatural spiritual reality. The physical is not the most important thing. It is that He promised to always be with us and longs to eat with us and to unite Himself to us. So as strange as it seems to me at times, it is also the most beautiful and wonderful thing I could imagine.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 12:17 pm |
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brian wrote: Thanks, although I was looking for a technical answer. I actually was lost in a town in Indiana the other day and the map from mapquest gave us the wrong directions to the mass. We did not make it till around the time of the creed, but I remembered Rick's advice and felt like it was ok to receive and consider my obligation met. I also considered it would not have been sin at all if we had missed it because we tried our best to get there and just got lost. I would have liked to stay for the next mass to get the whole thing, but i was a guest and needed to comply with everyone elses plans.
You're right. Under the circumstances, even if you had not made it for the readings, you had made a valiant effort and can consider your obligation met. It would not have been a sin to have missed mass entirely under the circumstances, nor would there have been a problem if you arrived even later and received communion anyway.
Also, I was supposing thsat if one is sick or in a hospital people can just take the communion to them and they are not required to be at any part of the mass. I am assuming this is because they physically can not but Jesus would still be willing to give Himself to us in these states of need.
Yes, communion may be brought to the sick at any time. Also, caretakers may receive communion along with them, even if they have already received at mass. It does not relieve the obligation to attend mass for the caretakers, but that obligation may already be relieved by the need to remain with the sick person.
I also have been wondering if I prefer finishing the Precious Body before getting the Precious Blood, but lately I have been making sure the Body is at least secure and drinking some of the Blood with the host still in my mouth. I think this works well, but I hope it is ok. I think Rick already told me that it was.
Do your best, and all is OK.
I was wondering today if it seems weird to anyone that we practice a religion which perhaps the main part of consists of eating our God. I mean, it is weird to eat one's God.
St. Athanasius said God became man so that man could become God. At that moment of consumption, we become God, we actually take on his Divinity as he took on our humanity.
In Israel, the sacrifice was not completed until it was consumed, either as holocaust or as a meal. At Passover in particular, the sacrificial lamb had to be consumed. Jesus is our God, but he is also the Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice which must be consumed to complete the sacrifice.
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brian
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 12:39 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
Yes, communion may be brought to the sick at any time. Also, caretakers may receive communion along with them, even if they have already received at mass.
Are you sure this is correct? Because This is what I just read in another query.."c.917 A person who has received the Most Holy Eucharist may receive it again (iterum) on the same day only during the celebration of the Eucharist in which the person participates, with due regard for the prescription of can. 921, part 2. What it is saying is that if one attends a Mass after receiving Holy Communion previously that day, one may receive it again. If it is not a Mass, but a Communion Service for example, one may not receive again." Is there a reason that bringing it to the sick would qualify as a reason to take it again when the canon law seems to say one may only receive it again if it is in the setting of the mass? It does not relieve the obligation to attend mass for the caretakers, but that obligation may already be relieved by the need to remain with the sick person.
So then one who volunteers to take mass to the sick is or is not required to attend mass, or does it depend on the pastoral authority? Or are you saying that if one decides out of charity that it is important to remain with the sick person that is a valid reason for not attending mass, or say you were in the hosptial watching or staying with a sick person?
St. Athanasius said God became man so that man could become God. At that moment of consumption, we become God, we actually take on his Divinity as he took on our humanity.
How could I better understand or explain this tatement if I said it and my hearer did not understand? I know you mean it in an orthodox sense while affirming that we are still distinct from God (or God is distinct from us). That we do become God, while being separate from Him, and His holiness by far is unique from ours? So while I affirm what you are saying makes sense, I would like to better understand to what extent we "become God" because none of us actually "become God" but we perhaps are united to Him or with Him in a way that our identity is linked intimately to his? So what exactly does or does not this concept mean, I am assuming it is similar to the idea of Theosis.
Also, When I quote different parts of your reply, how do I keep all my writing in boxes that are distinct from your boxes?
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 01:10 pm |
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brian wrote: cajunrick wrote:
Yes, communion may be brought to the sick at any time. Also, caretakers may receive communion along with them, even if they have already received at mass.
Are you sure this is correct? Because This is what I just read in another query.."c.917 A person who has received the Most Holy Eucharist may receive it again (iterum) on the same day only during the celebration of the Eucharist in which the person participates, with due regard for the prescription of can. 921, part 2. What it is saying is that if one attends a Mass after receiving Holy Communion previously that day, one may receive it again. If it is not a Mass, but a Communion Service for example, one may not receive again." Is there a reason that bringing it to the sick would qualify as a reason to take it again when the canon law seems to say one may only receive it again if it is in the setting of the mass
I am reasonably certain, but not absolutely positive. It is not covered in canon law. I'll try to remember to check the ritual for Pastoral Care of the Sick this weekend. I do know that on several occasions when I have been present when communion is brought to the sick, it has been offered to Catholics present even if they have already attended mass that day.
It does not relieve the obligation to attend mass for the caretakers, but that obligation may already be relieved by the need to remain with the sick person. So then one who volunteers to take mass to the sick is or is not required to attend mass, or does it depend on the pastoral authority? Or are you saying that if one decides out of charity that it is important to remain with the sick person that is a valid reason for not attending mass, or say you were in the hosptial watching or staying with a sick person?
We bring communion to the sick, not "mass". A caregiver is a person who stays with the sick person because they are too sick to stay alone. That is a valid reason to miss mass.
St. Athanasius said God became man so that man could become God. At that moment of consumption, we become God, we actually take on his Divinity as he took on our humanity.
How could I better understand or explain this tatement if I said it and my hearer did not understand?
I don't fully understand it, Brian, but I accept it. Just as the humanity of Jesus was overwhelmed by his Divinity, I believe that just for the moment when we receive Holy Communion, we are so overwhelmed by the Divinity of God that we become God for that moment. We are what we eat, and when we consume our Savior, we actually become what we have consumed.
Also, When I quote different parts of your reply, how do I keep all my writing in boxes that are distinct from your boxes?
You have to select the text and hit the double-quote button on the top, or copy the quote from the original message selectively, section by section, or preceed and end the quoted section with the quote tags like {quote} at the beginning and {/quote} at the end, using brackets instead of braces.
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BodRod
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 01:51 pm |
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All this brings to mind a question I had. I take communion to a 102 year old lady who lives with her son. He told me he too was Catholic but he did not want to participate in the activities involving his mother. At first I thought his lack of interest in participating was because he had not been to Reconciliation recently. But then I reasoned that he can't leave his mother alone for either Mass or Reconciliation. I have observed that he is noticeably uncomfortable from the moment I enter their home and until I leave. So, my dilemma is, should I encourage him to participate or mind my own business. Not knowing his past or his interests, I have taken the easy way out and I have minded my own business.
BTW, at 102, she gets around her house just fine with her little push-walker, has a great sense of humor and a terrific smile, has a bubbly personality and remembers all the prayers and responses!!! (I know Rick, this is off the subject.)
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brian
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 02:25 pm |
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I don't fully understand it, Brian, but I accept it. Just as the humanity of Jesus was overwhelmed by his Divinity, I believe that just for the moment when we receive Holy Communion, we are so overwhelmed by the Divinity of God that we become God for that moment. We are what we eat, and when we consume our Savior, we actually become what we have consumed.
I do respect your opinion and am not loking to disagree or fight, and am not claiming to have the accurate understanding, but I find the way you are putting this to be questionable or perhaps lacking in something. I would think saying something like this would require fuller explanation for there is nothing about receiving communion that will make us eternal, completely holy, omnipresent, omnipitent beings or members of the Holy Trinity; nor do I think tht is what you believe. I could see that somehow we share or are given Christ so imtimately or that we unite ourseleves with him so much that we are really partakers of the divine nature somehow. I like the prayer when the priest puts water in the chalice that says 'may we share in His divinity He who humbled Himself to share in our humanity" But it seems a little suspect to me to literally say we literally become God even for a moment without qualifying to some extent what this means and does not mean.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 03:12 pm |
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brian wrote: I believe that just for the moment when we receive Holy Communion, we are so overwhelmed by the Divinity of God that we become God for that moment. I would think saying something like this would require fuller explanation for there is nothing about receiving communion that will make us eternal, completely holy, omnipresent, omnipitent beings or members of the Holy Trinity; nor do I think tht is what you believe.
It's not my own idea, Brian. It's from the Catechism, quoted from St. Athanasius:
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81
I have struggled wtih understanding it myself. The explanation I gave above is my understanding of it.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 03:15 pm |
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BodRod wrote: All this brings to mind a question I had. I take communion to a 102 year old lady who lives with her son. He told me he too was Catholic but he did not want to participate in the activities involving his mother. At first I thought his lack of interest in participating was because he had not been to Reconciliation recently. But then I reasoned that he can't leave his mother alone for either Mass or Reconciliation. I have observed that he is noticeably uncomfortable from the moment I enter their home and until I leave. So, my dilemma is, should I encourage him to participate or mind my own business.
You should inform your priest. It's possible he may need the Sacrament of Reconciliation and counseling regarding his inability to attend mass, or he may be a former Catholic who is uncomfortable with his mother continuing to receive the sacraments. In either case, it's something that should be addressed by the priest, not by you.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 03:34 pm |
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| Great suggestion, Rick. Thank you. That will get the job done and allow me to do what I do best ......... Pass the buck!!!
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 04:13 pm |
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It's not my own idea, Brian. It's from the Catechism, quoted from St. Athanasius:
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81
I am not denying it is true. Nor that the catechism says it. Only that this is a statement that we would do well to make sure we do not musunderstand. That we should be careful to know to what extent it is true. I think you are misunderstanding my questioning you, because I think both of us are in agreeemnt on this point to whatever extent that it is true. Anyway, I found a faith fact that gives me precisely the clarification I was looking for. I will italicize what I was trying to get you to acknowledge. Here is the link to the rest of it. http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=257
Issue: What is meant by the quote from St. Athanasius that is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" (no. 460)?
Response: When God created Adam and Eve, He gave them supernatural grace that allowed them to participate in His divine nature. Christ became man in order to restore this grace, which was forfeited when Adam and Eve sinned. We are united to the Son of God in Baptism, whereby we share in his Passion, Death, and Resurrection. We are thus "sons in the Son" and, by grace, "partakers of the divine nature."
Discussion: While St. Athanasius’s quote might be easily misunderstood, the previous line in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Catechism), from St. Irenaeus, provides the appropriate context: "The Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God" (no. 460). To be the Son of God and to be a son of God are therefore two very different things: Christ is Son by nature (the "only Son" in John 3:16), while we are sons by grace ("sons in the Son" according to Gaudium et Spes, 22). Further, since man is a creature and there is only one God, man can never be God in the proper sense. Within the context of this paragraph, we see that St. Athanasius’s statement means something other than a man becoming the one God.....
Brian
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bryshe2
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| Joined: | Tue May 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Turner, Oregon USA |
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| First Name: | Bryan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic High School, Open Bible Standard Churches, Assembly of God, ... |
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Posted: Sat May 19th, 2007 03:26 am |
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A couple questions on this point of Becoming divine. Aren't we partakers of the divine nature by the baptism or indwelling of the holy spirit. He lives in every believer ( romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. )
Isn't it true that we are partakers in the divine nature as Peter describes in his letter because God makes it so through his Grace, not because of anything we do (ie. take communion)? See also Ephesians 2:8.
Bryan
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sat May 19th, 2007 09:09 am |
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