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Jackie
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| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 09:08 am |
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On Mothers Day a Mass was offered for the intention of my mom as well as two of my girlfriends moms. -deceased-
One girlfriend is an active member of the church and the other is a fallen away (now fully active member in a 'Bible' believing church) The fallen away's whole family went up to receive Communion when only the adults received their Sacraments. The children did not. The parents could have made a private confession in their hearts as long as no mortal sin was present and then recv'd Holy Communion right?! But the kids? No.
I have gotten into some serious discussion regarding our difference in faithswith the husband of my girlfriend and I would have thought he would have refrained to receive since he no longer believes it is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. I want to take this up with her (&him) but I was the one to include her Mom in the intention for Mass as well as having to be gentle since we are taking about our kids.
Should I say anything regarding this to them ? I felt alittle uncomfortable after it was all said and done since by having the mass said for her mom it "encouraged" them to make a mistake in receiving.
PS. the fallen aways husband is now some sort of pastor in their new church
Ahhhh, so much for good intentions Jackie
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 09:27 am |
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They shouldn't have received Communion but I wouldn't say anything about it if it were me, I would leave that between them and God. They know what the Church teaches on the subject and chose to ignore it so you wouldn't be telling them anything they don't already know and you might start a brush fire. Or forest fire.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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David W. Emery
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| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 10:12 am |
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Jackie, I agree with Annie that it will do no good to remonstrate with these people. As she says, the mother is probably aware of the Catholic Church’s stand on intercommunion and has flouted it. The rest of her family has followed her example. (It is also unfortunately possible that this family has actually been invited in other circumstances by a priest to receive communion with the rest of the congregation. This is in violation of canon law, but occasional posts in this forum provide eyewitness proof of the occurrence of such invitations.)
It is a characteristic of many Protestants that they use this issue of communion as a matter of their being recognized by the Catholic Church as Christians. This is not the Church’s point in not allowing intercommunion, but it is the point these people want to make. They believe that, as Christians, they “have the right” to Christian communion wherever it is available.
Surprisingly, considering the seemingly omnipresent anti-Catholicism among Protestants, this insistence on a “right” to receive Catholic communion is an implicit recognition of the Catholic Church, the Mass and the Eucharist as validly and effectively Christian. I wonder if their theology has ever dealt with this apparent contradiction.
Meanwhile, it is the Catholic Church’s position that any validly baptized person, even if not Catholic, is by that fact a Christian, and in this light there are in canon law certain specific exceptions to the prohibition of the Eucharist to non-Catholics. In other words, those of the family who have been baptized would have received validly but illicitly.
David
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
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| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 12:14 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: It is a characteristic of many Protestants that they use this issue of communion as a matter of their being recognized by the Catholic Church as Christians. This is not the Church’s point in not allowing intercommunion, but it is the point these people want to make. They believe that, as Christians, they “have the right” to Christian communion wherever it is available.
If someone doesn't believe what the Catholic church teaches, they have no reason to listen to the teachings. Therefor, by their standards, the Catholic church has "no right" to keep them away from a communion that they "have a right to". It sounds harsh, but many non-Catholic Christians feel very entitled. They deserve much, simply because they are Christians.
I have learned the very, very hard way, that it's just not true.
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 12:20 pm |
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Jackie wrote: The fallen away's whole family went up to receive Communion when only the adults received their Sacraments.
...
Should I say anything regarding this to them ?
The proper time to discuss it with them is before the mass. I realize you didn't expect them to receive communion so you had no reason to do this, but remember it in the future.
It's sort of like inviting someone to your house for coffee and finding them going through your refrigerator. It is very rude. They are the guests, and it's up to them to follow the "house rules". If they are unsure of the rules, it is their responsibility to ask about them.
The bishops have produced a set of Guidelines for the Reception of Holy Communion that are supposed to be printed in every missalette used in the United States. When inviting non-Catholics to mass, it is a good idea to let them read the guideines before mass. If they still chose to present themselves for communion, it is their sin. As David said, as long as they are baptized, the Eucharist is still valid, but their reception is not licit (lawful).
When they visit your house, it is not proper for them to put their shoes on the furniture just because they do it at their house. They shouldn't follow their rules at our house either. Whether they consider our rules right or wrong are irrelevant. They're our rules, and they are our guests.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Jackie
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| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 11:49 am |
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Thank you all for your encouraging words.
I didn't even realize other denominations "thought they had a right" to anything Catholic since, in my experience, I've come up against most who use forceful words against the Church and all She teaches.
I should probably post my story, and I will one day, to express how and why I am surrounded by so many Protestant friends.
In the mean time, my girlfriends and I see each other all the time, we are from different churches and denominations and we have been the best of friends since our children were born. We have discussions from time to time regarding our faiths, so I am sure we will have an opportunity to talk ---in general---about what we believe and why. So with the love our Lord and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I pray that when it comes up, I can approach it with a discerning heart. Thanks again for your thoughts.
Cajunrick wrote:
The proper time to discuss it with them is before the mass.
Rick-always to the point but I have to admit, your growing on me.:?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 12:37 pm |
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Jackie wrote: Cajunrick wrote:
The proper time to discuss it with them is before the mass.
Rick-always to the point but I have to admit, your growing on me.:?
Sorta like a fungus?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Wed May 30th, 2007 09:53 pm |
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On the difficulties of getting people to comply with the rules of properly receiving Communion, man I can relate. It is very difficult to manage what people choose to do.
For my wedding I had printed a long explanation of who can and can't receive Communion. With most of our faithful priests here in the Arlington Diocese, this is a common practice to put this in wedding programs. On top of this, the dear priest gave a detailed verbal explanation of this, in a most charitable manner, before Communion. Well, my non-practicing Catholic friends received anyway. I was horrified when I watched the wedding video.
My non-Catholic friends were very respectful and did not partake.
Its a good idea to ensure that folks understand the rules before Mass, yes. But be prepared to be ignored. I did my best and that's what counts. Those that obstinately choose another path in spite of admonition - the fault is theirs.
When I do get into a discussion with friends and acquaintances who demand to know why they can't receive, I get pretty matter of fact. When I'm told that they DO believe everything the Church teaches and believe that Communion is truly Jesus, I respond with "then become a Catholic and receive"! Nobody's taken me up on that one yet.
In Charity,
tina
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Robert
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 12th, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 12th, 2007 12:58 pm |
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"It's sort of like inviting someone to your house for coffee and finding them going through your refrigerator. It is very rude."
IMO it’s not only very rude its a scandal. (I do like the comparison)
As an extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist I’m constantly confronted with similar situations. At best I consider it one of the “Crosses” I have to bear. The circumstances under which I could refuse to give someone who presents themselves for Holy Communion are about non existent.
In some cases I feel physically violated!
The problem with the “Beforehand” approach is that if a Priest says anything to the effect of who can or cannot receive worthily, the Bishop gets a letter! The Priests are called on the carpet and have to explain why the are upsetting the unity of the parish!
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Intercessor
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Posted: Mon Nov 12th, 2007 01:47 pm |
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Hello, Robert,
Welcome to the Forum!
Becky
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Nov 12th, 2007 02:23 pm |
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Robert wrote:The problem with the “Beforehand” approach is that if a Priest says anything to the effect of who can or cannot receive worthily, the Bishop gets a letter! The Priests are called on the carpet and have to explain why the are upsetting the unity of the parish!
The bishops of the United States have written an instruction stating plainly exactly who is welcomed to receive communion and who is not. It is required to be printed in every issue of every missalette produced in the United States. Perhaps your pastor could use it as a guide and print a card to be placed in the pews at your parish, or read it (or something similar) to the congregation when he feels it is appropriate.
If your bishop has a problem with your priest telling people not to receive communion unworthily, you're real problem is with your bishop. Perhaps you should write to the episcopal conference in your country to find out if they have issued guidelines to determine just who can receive communion and who cannot.
We're glad to have you here with us, Robert. Welcome to CHN!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Robert
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Posted: Tue Nov 13th, 2007 04:16 am |
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Hi, and thanks for the Welcome.
In Germany we do not have those little misseletts like in the US. We have a regular Missal book (Gotteslob). Of course the requirements for worthy reception are printed, but never really pointed to.
Its not just a local problem, but a general one.
The avoiding of everything "negative" e.g. the need for confession etc. is the way some want to maintain harmony.
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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beachmoss
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Posted: Thu Nov 15th, 2007 05:53 pm |
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Our parish bulletin has the guidelines printed in it about every two weeks. Of course these shouldn't be read before mass, but there are plenty of people rattling those papers before mass begins. Father rarely goes over the guidelines, except when there are most likely non- or nominal Catholics present, such as Baptisms, First Communion, etc.
Beth
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Nov 29th, 2007 12:43 am |
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| Although ecumenical in my outlook, I am officially a member of a Baptist congregation. When my church has Holy Communion, they let it be known that all baptized Christians may receive Holy Communion. Please know that while I respect the position of the Roman Catholic Church that I should not receive Holy Communion in a Roman Catholic Mass, the closest I will get to attending a Mass is by watching it on EWTN or watching one of the Mass broadcasts from the Vatican or other Roman Catholic Church via television. When watching the broadcasts, I do prayerfully participate, praying along as appropriate, however, I would not attend an actual Roman Catholic worship service for just this reason. I could not participate in the service, worshiping my Lord Jesus Christ and then be refused participation in this most holy part of the Mass. It would just be too hard and too hurtful. And I think that this has been and will continue to be a major stumbling block between the denominations, sadly speaking. Of course, some local, conservative Baptist congregations do practice closed Holy Communion, however, they are the exception rather than the rule and I do not agree with them. I guess for this reason, I will never become a Roman Catholic, while still respecting the church greatly. And I can only tell you that the Lord Jesus Christ HAS saved my soul and I will see you all in Heaven with Him some day. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotton Son [Jesus] that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Nov 29th, 2007 10:25 pm |
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EMarshallBuckles wrote:
Please know that while I respect the position of the Roman Catholic Church that I should not receive Holy Communion in a Roman Catholic Mass, the closest I will get to attending a Mass is by watching it on EWTN or watching one of the Mass broadcasts from the Vatican or other Roman Catholic Church via television. When watching the broadcasts, I do prayerfully participate, praying along as appropriate, however, I would not attend an actual Roman Catholic worship service for just this reason. I could not participate in the service, worshiping my Lord Jesus Christ and then be refused participation in this most holy part of the Mass. It would just be too hard and too hurtful. And I think that this has been and will continue to be a major stumbling block between the denominations, sadly speaking. Of course, some local, conservative Baptist congregations do practice closed Holy Communion, however, they are the exception rather than the rule and I do not agree with them. I guess for this reason, I will never become a Roman Catholic, while still respecting the church greatly. And I can only tell you that the Lord Jesus Christ HAS saved my soul and I will see you all in Heaven with Him some day.
Marshall, I understand what you are feeling, I think. It was very hard for me to be denied access to the Eucharist. By the time I contacted a priest and went to our first meeting, I had done enough study to know that I wanted to be received into the Church. I so wanted to be allowed to receive the Lord at that very first meeting. It did feel like rejection. However, for me--probably not for others-- it was also a matter of pride. I had been the preacher's daughter, the missionary's daughter-in-law, the deacon's wife, the Sunday School teacher of almost forty years, choir member, church soloist, (many other leadership positions). How could anyone possibly entertain the notion that I did not deserve to participate with others present in receiving the Lord?
I attended about 128 Masses without being allowed to receive. It hurt my pride. Thank God that it did. One of the reasons I moved toward the Church was my quest to crucify the spiritual pride that had plagued me from my youth. I needed far more help than I was getting as a Protestant.
I submitted to the embarrassment of remaining behind in the pew as others went forward because I was convinced that the Holy Spirit had directed me to embrace Catholicism. Embracing Catholicism included obedience to Church Authority and to the successors of apostolic leadership. That time of waiting was, for me, an essential part of becoming obedient, docile, and more humble. It was a time of learning my place as a member of the community rather than as an elite individualist. I also submitted because part of Church teaching is the importance of attending and participating in Sunday Mass, a separate issue from receiving the Lord. Through making a spiritual communion, I received my own blessing in each Mass.
Through the teachings of the Church, I am learning to give thanks for all the little mortifications of flesh and spirit that help crucify my pride, and I continue to gain understanding of the why behind some of the practices that strike Protestants as so unwelcoming, in the beginning. The Church takes very seriously her responsibility for the souls in her care. Having been a devout Baptist Sunday School teacher for almost forty years did not make me prepared to receive the Eucharist. I needed time, guidance, formation, and a Catholic heart.
Last edited on Thu Nov 29th, 2007 10:48 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 12:04 am |
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WOW, Becky!  You surely "leave me in the dust" as far as being a Baptist goes! I am kind of reminded of St. Paul who described himself as having been, to use my summary, "the best of the best" of the faithful, religious Jewish people before he became a Christian, ha, ha! That's awesome! Uh, as far as Baptist life goes, I mean! And what you said about pride does make sense. I will think upon what you said. Also, can you possibly refer me to any books, etc. which compare Baptist beliefs to Roman Catholic beliefs from a primarily Catholic perspective? I was also wondering, I have heard that some churches will allow non-Catholic Christians to come forth and receive a blessing. Is that a general practice throughout the church or only in local parishes according to the parish's custom. Thank you for you comments and thank you for any reading suggestions you might be able to make. I am certainly humbled compared to you!
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 12:33 am |
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Becky I agree with Marshall that was an excellent testimony to the importance of waiting until we are worthy of receiving the Blessed Sacrament. Not that we will ever be truly worthy, but how does the statement go ... "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed." As a lifelong Baptist I thought I knew pretty much all there was to know about Christianity as a layperson. Ha! I knew nothing. Starting with, as you said, humility. It's a lesson not required in protestantland. But the Catholic church takes the responsibility so very seriously of preserving the faith and the sacraments, and upholding the integrity of them. Now I understand it, and am glad I had to wait.
Marshall, in our church, those who are not catholic or are catholic but not in a state of grace are allowed to go forward with their arms crossed over their chest and receive a blessing. I did it for months until I was finally confirmed and received my first communion.
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beachmoss
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 12:38 am |
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Marshall,
You might want to check out this site. It is a Catholic site that teaches the truth about many Baptist teachings.
http://members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html
I hope this helps.
Beth
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 12:16 pm |
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| Beth, thank you so much for that web site! It is very well done - AWESOME! My compliments to whoever set it up! It will take me a while to read through it, however, read through it I most certainly will! Thank you so much for sharing that with me! By the way, my daughter's name is Elizabeth (she's currently age 15), named after my beloved maternal grandmother and my mother in law (her middle name is Fay after my mother), however, my wife and I have always lovingly called her "Beth". So I think that Beth is a great name! And, again, thank you for your kind referral to that web site! I will be reading it!
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 12:21 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Becky I agree with Marshall that was an excellent testimony to the importance of waiting until we are worthy of receiving the Blessed Sacrament. Not that we will ever be truly worthy, but how does the statement go ... "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed." As a lifelong Baptist I thought I knew pretty much all there was to know about Christianity as a layperson. Ha! I knew nothing. Starting with, as you said, humility. It's a lesson not required in protestantland. But the Catholic church takes the responsibility so very seriously of preserving the faith and the sacraments, and upholding the integrity of them. Now I understand it, and am glad I had to wait.
Marshall, in our church, those who are not catholic or are catholic but not in a state of grace are allowed to go forward with their arms crossed over their chest and receive a blessing. I did it for months until I was finally confirmed and received my first communion.
Marsha, thank you for kindly sharing your experience with me. Those are some moving and awesome insights! I am grateful to you good folks who are helping me to understand. Thank you! Although I have enjoyed watching the Mass on EWTN, perhaps at some point I will go to a local parish, attend a Mass and go forward to receive a blessing. Again, thank you for your kind reply. There are some awesome folks participating in this forum! I am very glad that there are still people like you good folks in this world! Very respectfully, Marshall
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 01:01 pm |
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| The pride issue is a big one- I think that is a huge factor in my kids' reluctance to join the church- as staunch Anglicans they are used to recieving communio each week and to be told that they"aren't good enough suddenly" (their view not mine) to recieve a sacrament stings. For me once I had opened the suspicion in my mind that the Anglican Eucharist wasn't the real presence then I didn't feel right taking communion again till I was Catholic though to be honest I wall alowed to Jump in to RCIA in Feb. so it wasn't the long haul that the rest of you are lookming at.
____________________
Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 02:22 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: I think that is a huge factor in my kids' reluctance to join the church- as staunch Anglicans they are used to recieving communio each week and to be told that they"aren't good enough suddenly" (their view not mine) to recieve a sacrament stings.
I think a better example would be that they are permitted to visit a restaurant and drink grape juice but not wine, or a "virgin" drink but not a real one. They are not mature enough to handle the alcohol (in the law's view at any rate) until they are 21.
At this point, their faith is not mature enough to receive the sacrament of Eucharist. It's not that they must wait until they are "good enough" but rather until they are mature enough in their faith and are ready to accept the Catholic faith in its entirety.
Until now they've been "playing Catholic". Now they have to decide if they want the real thing. Like driving, or seeing R-rated movies, or attending college, or drinking alcohol, they must show a level of responsibility to their faith before they will be "rewarded" with the Body and Blood of Christ.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 03:44 pm |
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Yeah I know that Rick- I didn't mean that the church thinks that they are not good enough- That is the brainwashed mind of an Anglo catholic- Since I have become Catholic every Episcopalian/Anglian that I know has been telling me since I converted"You do know that WE are catholic too don;t you- just not Roman" Even before I converted I never called myself "Holy Catholic" because I felt it was pretentious. But I realize that my kids have had more anti Catholic brainwashing from the sources around us then I ever had. Also the evangelicals and fundamentalists that I know worry about MY salvation ( they shouldn't  ) but my former church mates could care less about my soul- they have taken my conversion as a personal slap- go figure :?Last edited on Fri Nov 30th, 2007 04:55 pm by kimdyuma
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EMarshallBuckles
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