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Gnyssa
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 05:02 pm |
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Dear Friends,
As many of you know, HH PopeBenedict XVI has authorized greater use of the old Tridentine Mass. This has brought some criticism because it is alledged that there is a prayer in there which ask for the conversion of the Jews or says something negative about them. But for the life of me, I cannot find any such thing, and I have a bilingual Latin-English 1962 Missal.
Does anyone know where in the old rite such a claim might be based on? It may not even be true.
I am the Eccumenical/Interfaith officer for our Diocese and need to track this one down before I next meet the Rabbi. Thanks for any assistance.
Fr Gnyssa
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 05:23 pm |
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The 1962 revision removed the offensive prayer. That actually was the purpose of that revision, and why no previous version is allowed.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 07:45 pm |
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Where exactly is that prayer located in the triidentine Mass? I ask because I have a St. Joseph Missal from the early 1950's.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 08:03 pm |
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Darlene, this article explains the matter.
David
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Gnyssa
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 09:16 pm |
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Thank you friends, these replies are extremely helpful to me in my work. God bless you!
Fr Gnyssa
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brian
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 05:37 am |
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I am glad that we made the text more ecumenically friendly, however, I never would want to admit that praying for the conversion of Jewish or Moslem or other religious groups to Christianity is offensive/wrong or against our faith. Some might have a problem with that, but I think Paul longed for the conversion of the Jewish people, and we belieiving Christ is the Jewish messiah should want (out of sincere love for them) them to know the fullness of that joy. We believe Jesus is God and God is trinity therfore we should also pray for moslems to come to know truth as well.
Sure we want them to seek and honor God as best they can with what they know, and we believe they may possibly achieve salvation based on what they are accountable for as only God can see, but I hate when we make it seem like we do not want those who reject Christ to come to know Him or like there is no urgency to care or pray for such a thing. Though in this case I can see that the prayer was seemingly offensive in some way and is better now, but I do not like wording things in such a way that it seems like we wish them well and are not all that concerned with whether or not they accept Jesus as Lord. I worry that a lot of Catholics possibly do not work toward evangelizing because they figure there is no need to based on how ecumenically friendly we can be at times.
I still prefer our approach to the more judgmental and harsh evangelical idea that does not even allow for mutual respect and the thought of non-Christians being in heaven (except maybe those who never heard the gospel and babies and other rare cases according to some groups); however, I do not want to get so friendly with other religions that peole get the impression that it does not matter what someone believes as long as they are sincere. I know the church is dead set against relativism, but sometimes I think we contribute to it by not making our teaching extremely clear.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 09:10 am |
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Brian, I think the wording in the (Paul VI) Service for Good Friday in reference to the Jews (cited in the link I provided above) strikes the right balance. I’ll repeat it here for easier reference:
“Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption.”
The John XXIII Good Friday Service says simply, “Let us pray for the Jews.” (Also cited in the link provided.) Simple and to the point without any overtones.
(Readers will note that I use the word “Service” instead of “Mass” for Good Friday. Out of respect for Christ’s sacrifice and death on the cross that day, Mass is not celebrated. There is, however, a special — and most beautiful — commemorative liturgy, which includes communion, offered beginning about 3 o’clock in the afternoon, the traditional hour of Christ’s death.)
David
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 09:48 am |
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Brian, I second your comments. It is a worthy practice to pray for the conversion of the Jews. It appears that those most offended by the prayer are those who see no need to accept Jesus.
Those that don't understand Catholicism thoroughly might not realize that we love our Jewish "elders". The Catholic Church was founded by Jews. Hellooooh! Jesus was Jewish! Many of our old traditions are based on Old Testament practices. One could go on and on about our Jewish roots. Why wouldn't we want to pray for the good observant Jews who long for the Messiah?
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 10:07 am |
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I once said to my catechist, "Jesus was Jewish, you know." His response, "He still is."
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 10:09 am |
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One of the reservations I had about Catholicism long ago was that prayer mentioning "the perfidious Jews."
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Annie
Ora et labora
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brian
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 01:07 pm |
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Annie wrote: One of the reservations I had about Catholicism long ago was that prayer mentioning "the perfidious Jews."
I will agree as to why this prayer would cause someone trouble. I only hope it is some consolation of that reservation that John Paul II worked so hard toward peace with our Jewish friends. We have eliminated that prayer, and remember that he publicly apologized for the evils the church has committed (some of which were doubtlessly committed against the Jews), prayed for peace and unity, wrote that letter and left it at the wailing wall. So though we have had an interesting history with the Jewish people, and not always good one, remember that we have sought to make it right in various ways, and I pray the Pope will be given wisdom as there are some arising concerns with Jewish people oer the resugre of the Latin mass, though if we have changed those prayers I do not see why they are still upset if we have literally changed or altered parts of our liturgy to appease them. Seems like a nice gesture to me. The other factor I do not know regardinig our flawed history becasue nobody talks about it is what ways they contributed or not...I am not accusing them of anything, but have they not at times in the early church greatly persecuted our faith even if only very on even killing many of the first Christians? Am I mistaken, what is their contribution to this issue? It would be surprising if their were no backlash from us concerning our attitude toward them in the past if this is true. However, we have no excuse for it now or ever becasue Jesus only told us to love and pray for our enemies not to fight back or hate or curse them, and this is why I am glad we do pray for them. But I too am embarrassed at times about some things I have read regardinig relationships to the Jewish people, and I really want to work towards more peace as long as we do not have to alter our faith in any way to do it.
Brian
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 01:28 pm |
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| I agree with you, Brian. I grew up in an area with lots of Jewish people and I feel a real connection.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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sanberdooapologetics
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 06:02 am |
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Hey Fr. G,
I don't recall you asking your resident "rad-trad" about this question. The pre-1962 Missal (Mass of John XXIII), was last revised in 1950 I believe, and still exists in published form in the Fr. Lassance Missal. It was revised in 1962 when it removed the term "perfidious" in describing the Jews. There is nothing wrong with praying for the conversion for the Jews because it is their only hope for salvation, as for everybody else who does not know Christ. Their covenant was revoked, null and void, as St. Paul states in the book of Hebrews, so, they must convert for salvation. What's so wrong about that? I just heard the German Jews severed ties with the Holy See... In my opinion, if dialogue require compromise, then I am not for it. There is still room for mutual respect and dialogue, while both sides can still believe, and reightfully so, admit that that other is wrong.
AMDG,
Laurence
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hpj0828
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Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 03:37 pm |
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As a Jewish believer in Yeshua HaMaschiach, Jesus the Messiah, I want to thank you all for praying for us! Everyone needs Jesus: Jews and Gentiles alike. 
It is estimated that there are now between 1 and 2 million Jewish people worldwide who believe in Jesus.
Keep up the good work!
Henry
BTW: Many Jewish believers I know do not like the word "convert" for their journey to faith in Jesus. The word convert is very offensive. It reminds us of the forced conversions of Jews throughout the sad history of the relations between the Jewish people and the church. So, we think "conversion" means an insincere accomodation to a hostile Gentile environment made against one's will--not what most Catholics mean by this term at all. Rather, we are "completed" or "fulfilled" as Jews by our faith in the Jewish Messiah Jesus!
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HPJ
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sanberdooapologetics
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Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 03:47 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: BTW: Many Jewish believers I know do not like the word "convert" for their journey to faith in Jesus. The word convert is very offensive. It reminds us of the forced conversions of Jews throughout the sad history of the relations between the Jewish people and the church. So, we think "conversion" means an insincere accomodation to a hostile Gentile environment made against one's will--not what most Catholics mean by this term at all. Rather, we are "completed" or "fulfilled" as Jews by our faith in the Jewish Messiah Jesus!
Thank you for this insight... I will be careful with my vocabulary in the future.
AMDG,
Laurence
Last edited on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 03:48 pm by sanberdooapologetics
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hpj0828
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Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 04:19 pm |
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brian wrote: The other factor I do not know regardinig our flawed history becasue nobody talks about it is what ways they contributed or not...I am not accusing them of anything, but have they not at times in the early church greatly persecuted our faith even if only very on even killing many of the first Christians? Am I mistaken, what is their contribution to this issue? It would be surprising if their were no backlash from us concerning our attitude toward them in the past if this is true. However, we have no excuse for it now or ever becasue Jesus only told us to love and pray for our enemies not to fight back or hate or curse them, and this is why I am glad we do pray for them. But I too am embarrassed at times about some things I have read regardinig relationships to the Jewish people, and I really want to work towards more peace as long as we do not have to alter our faith in any way to do it.
Brian
Many of today's Catholics think of the strife between those who followed Jesus and the Jewish establishment in the 1st Century AD as: "The Jews" vs. "The Christians". This is actually totally false.
Throughout the first century, most who followed Jesus were Jewish. So this conflict is: "The Jews" vs. "The Jews"--it was an internal conflict among Jews. The conflict between Jewish Christians and some of the ruling elite of their country is only one of many such internal conflicts. Hatred and prejudice existed among all of the subgroups described below:
Jewish subgroups within the 1st Century:
The Sadducees--these were the elite priests who controlled the Temple establishment. They believed that only the Torah (first 5 books of the OT) were inspired by God. They rejected the inspiration of the prophets and writings of the OT. They also found no evidence for the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead in the Torah. There are hints of this doctrine in the Prophets and Writings, but the Sadducees did not accept their inspiration. Most of the Jewish population hated the Sadducees, including the High Priest, because they were in collusion with the hated Roman rulers. At the very top of Jewish society financially and politically, there were only a few hundreds, perhaps over a thousand Sadducees.
The Pharisees--these were an elite group who produced legal rulings extending the Torah to the 1st C environment of Judaism. They tried to extend the Torah laws which applied to consecrated priests in their liturgical duties to ordinary daily Jewish life. There were only about 6000 Pharisees at the time of Jesus. Even within the Pharisees there was deep division between those who followed the teachings of Rabbi Hillel and those who followed the teachings of Hillel's student Rabbi Shammai. Note that the great Rabbi Gamaliel, the Apostle Paul's teacher, actually defended the early Christians who were tried in the Sanhedrin as described in Acts 5.
The Essenes--these separated from the Temple establishment and its worship and developed their own spiritual practices. Some lived in towns and cities throughout the holy land, while others chose to live an ascetic monastic celibate life in Qumran, where they wrote/copied the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Zealots-- these Jewish nationalists believed in ushering the Messianic reign of God on the earth by violent political revolution. Again, these numbered about a few thousand.
The Christians--these Jews believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. Their numbers grew over the century. After about a decade, they accepted Gentiles into their society.
The Am HaAretz--the "People of the Land" These Jews represented the tens of millions of Jews who belonged to none of the above groups. They were simply the average folk, peasants, artisans and traders who scrambled every day for a living. By and large, these people had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus or the persecution of his early Jewish followers--they were simply too busy scratching out a living and raising their families to be involved in the execution of one man.
So, who are "The Jews" who supposedly persecuted "The Christians"?
When the NT, especially the Gospel of John, refers to "The Jews" as enemies of Jesus and his followers, it always refers to the ruling elites whose privileged political position was threatened by the Jesus Movement. They were primarily, perhaps exclusively concerned with the threat of Jewish Christians whom they excluded from the synagogues in the late 1st C. They had little or no interest in Gentile Christians who formed the majority population of the church from the 2nd C onwards. Pharisees and Essenes wanted the Jewish people to remain pure. The Gentiles were viewed as impure by nature--thus beyond the boundaries of help or concern. As long as they didn't cause political or economic problems, they were not of spiritual consequence. By rejecting Jewish people who believed in Jesus, the ruling elite cut the Am HaAretz off from the possibility of living authentic Torah-observant lives while following Jesus. They cut their own people off from the very grace which God had given them through the Jewish Messiah.
As the church became predominantly Gentile in the following centuries, there was no place for Jews who wanted to remain Jewish. Becoming a part of the church meant abandoning Jewish culture and life and assimilating into the prevailing Gentile culture. As Gentile Christians observed the disappearance of Jewish believers in the church, they sought theological reasons for this. They adopted an anti-Semitic theology that viewed the Church as replacing the Jews in God's purposes. All the promises made in the OT toward the Jews were applied to the Church. The Jews were disenfranchised from their relationship with God and viewed as accursed. This tragic theology produced an excuse for persecution and created barriers against Jewish people becoming part of the church.
Thank God, today these patterns of division between the Church and the main body of Jewish people who do not yet believe in the Jewish Messiah are being broken. The steps taken by the RCC in the last 50 years to make amends for this sad history are part of the reason. Also, the steps taken by Jewish people to respect Christians, and even by many Jews to follow Jesus, are another!
Hope this helps!
Henry
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HPJ
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 04:44 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: When the NT, especially the Gospel of John, refers to "The Jews" as enemies of Jesus and his followers, it always refers to the ruling elites whose privileged political position was threatened by the Jesus Movement.
Things are no different today. When we speak of "the Russians" or "the Chinese" we are speaking of governments, not people. When we speak politically of "the Democrats" we are referring to a national political party. For example, "the Democrats" are pro-abortion, and yet my congressman, a Democrat, is a faithful Catholic with a 100% pro-life voting record.
Generalizations are always dangerous and never accurate, and yet we all do it every day.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mg57
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Posted: Sun Apr 6th, 2008 01:40 am |
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Henry -
You wrote -
"Thank God, today these patterns of division between the Church and the main body of Jewish people who do not yet believe in the Jewish Messiah are being broken. The steps taken by the RCC in the last 50 years to make amends for this sad history are part of the reason."
I've taken an interest in this issue the last few years, and wondered if you would list books written by Catholics on this topic that you've personally read and can recommend.
Thanks.
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BeProf
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 06:41 pm |
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I don't find anything offensive about praying that someone would come to know Christ as their Lord and Savior. If we really do believe what we believe, that's the best we can wish for a person.
I understand why the prayer was changed, but I would also point out for the record that "perfidious" in Latin can mean either "unbelieving" or "treacherous" depending on the usage. In the context of this prayer, I think it means simply "unbelieving."
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japhy
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 06:56 pm |
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Annie wrote: One of the reservations I had about Catholicism long ago was that prayer mentioning "the perfidious Jews." The English translation of perfides as "perfidious" meaning "treacherous" was never official. The Latin perfides is better translated as "faithless" or "unbelieving" (as BeProf pointed out), and the use of the word was to stress that for a Jewish person to reject Jesus as Messiah is a lack of faith on the part of that Jew to believe God has fulfilled His promise.
In other words, for Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah is part of their faith, and those who deny doing so are, in that sense, unbelieving in God.
Last edited on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 06:57 pm by japhy
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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