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bwhite06517
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Hamden, Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 27 |
| First Name: | Bruce | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, CATHOLIC!!!! |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 01:54 pm |
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I was watching EWTN the other evening and the discussion was on the Latin Mass. As a convert, I came to the Church for the fullness of faith, for the Eucharist, for the authority. Those things were present when the Mass was in Latin, but I think it might have been another hurdle to conversion. As a convert (who speaks no language other than English), I like the Mass in a language I can understand. I understand that those who remember the Latin Mass thought it was deep and meaningful to them.
Pope Benedict has announced a greater acceptance of the Latin Mass, I suppose I could grow to understand and like it, but (again) a preferance for the Mass in a language I can understand.
My question might be something like this: (a) would those of you who are converts still have made the transition to Catholicism if the Mass had only been in Latin (obviously even then many did convert)?; (b) and what are your thoughts toward worshipping at a Latin Mass?
[Aside ... not relating to this question. I have been to Masses in French (Montreal), Spanish (Mexico) and Russian (Belarus) - where I am mentally putting the English words in where I suppose them to be. By watching the priest and following the congretation, I can pretty much tell where we are.]
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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 776 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 02:03 pm |
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| Yes I would have converted-
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MichaelStEdmund
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 98 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 05:49 pm |
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bwhite06517 wrote: My question might be something like this: (a) would those of you who are converts still have made the transition to Catholicism if the Mass had only been in Latin (obviously even then many did convert)?; (b) and what are your thoughts toward worshipping at a Latin Mass?
I attended a Mass in Latin for the first time recently, so I have my own thoughts and questions  , but in response to your questions:
a) Yes, I believe I would have still converted, as many other converts did before Vatican II. I'm thinking of figures such as Newman, Belloc, Chesterton and others. Granted, in the past when educated people were expected to know Latin or Greek, the obstacles may not have been as great ... but I find it interesting that in reading their stories, language doesn't seem to have been much of an issue. Their actual concern was TRUTH. In my own conversion, that was the ultimate factor. Not, "Is this entertaining?" or "Does this make me 'feel' good?" but "Is this true?"
b) I've had older Catholics who grew up with the Latin Mass tell me that they preferred Mass in the vernacular because it made them feel more involved. I can understand that, and I think that the Council had that as one of its aims. However, Catholics can be as uninvolved at a vernacular Mass as they ever could at a Tridentine Mass. Humanity has an incredible talent for being able to "zone" stuff out and reduce everything to white noise, regardless of the language or the form of the service.
My experience with this form of the Mass is scanty, but I believe that to benefit from a Latin Mass, you've got to go into it with a much more contemplative spirit. You need to be able to focus, to leave the cares of the world outside the door, to not be made nervous by the quiet open spaces of the liturgical landscape. The same could be said about Mass in the vernacular, but I think it's even more of a "must" in the Latin.
I don't know if it's like this at most churches that celebrate Mass in Latin, but the local parish had the most respectful, reverent and attentive congregation I think I've ever seen. The children present were so well behaved and involved that it was frightening.
Following the Latin Mass is made easier if you have a Latin/English missal. It's even easier if you have at least some comprehension of Latin. My Latin is very dodgy, but I was able to follow the liturgy better than my wife was, and it demanded my complete attention. That's not such a bad thing.
I also enjoyed the fact that the music was more traditional. I'm not going to launch into a complaint here about music at Mass that has been used over the past 30 - 40 years. Some of that I've enjoyed. I'll just say that the music at the Latin Mass I attended seemed more geared toward worship and was much less focused on the "performers" involved. I told a dear friend of mine who is an organist that it seemed "less show-bizzy," and received a bit of a scowl from her. But that's really what I thought about it.
Overall, it reminded me of how I felt when I attended Mass for the first time some years ago - with an intense, confused, sense of wonder. I would like to go back there from time to time. It was quite a delicacy.
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"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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bwhite06517
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Hamden, Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 27 |
| First Name: | Bruce | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, CATHOLIC!!!! |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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THANKS MICHAEL!!! 
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 06:06 pm |
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Hi, Bruce. I became Catholic for much the same reasons you did. And I did it at a time when the Mass was available only in Latin — that is, five years before the 1968 changeover to English.
I had no difficulty with the Latin. I took it, initially, as you did with Masses in languages other than English. However, because I pursued a Languages major in college, I did not hesitate to pick up a little Latin as I went. These days, living as I do on the Mexican border, I often attend Mass or other Church functions in Spanish.
To me, the language of the liturgy is a non-issue. In other words, I would have become Catholic regardless of the language used in the liturgy. I accepted the Christian religion and the Catholic Church as its true representative, not a particular cultural expression of it.
If a Latin Mass were available near me today, I might attend if it were convenient. I still have my now 45-year-old Latin missal. But I have no real reason to prefer it over the Paul VI Mass in the vernacular or, for that matter, an Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy. The Mass is the Mass, and Jesus is on the altar and is fed to me in communion no matter what language or rite is used.
David
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 06:15 pm |
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Hi Bruce,
Yes, I would have converted no matter what!!! While I prefer the vernacular, once I realized that the Catholic Church had the fullness of faith and that what I had experienced in the past was only a partial faith I was ready to convert. I had studied, on my own, for 4.5 years so, by the time I started RCIA I had made all the decisions which would lead to membership. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 211 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 07:02 pm |
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| I grew up with the mass in latin in the 50's I also studied latin for three years in highschool and as an alter boy praid and understood all the responses in latin. However I always felt latin presented an obstacle to participation in the heavenly worship to most of the laity, particularly people like my imigrant grandparents, who could barely read english, let alone read and understand latin. They all had difficulty following the order of service using the old prayer books for the responses. And so I feel using the common languages of the people promoted a much fuller participation in the sacred rites by the vast majority of believers..
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beachmoss
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Simpsonville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 270 |
| First Name: | Beth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic (raised Baptist) |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 11:31 pm |
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I love the Latin mass! And yes, I would have converted even if the mass were still in Latin. The truth is here in the Catholic Church, no matter in what language that truth is conveyed.
I was recently thinking about this when speaking to someone who thinks that God's language is that of the King James Version. Now I know that is ridiculous, but to many the KJV is the only way to read the Bible. And I agree with them that the language is beautiful and poetic, but it is a translation--not THE language of the church.
After the conversation I began to wonder how I would have answered if I had been asked, "But you believe the language of your church is Latin, right?" After some thought I think I have an answer, if I do get this question sometime.
The language of the Church is Jesus, God's Word Incarnate. It is the love of our Father translated to us through His Son.
This man, Jesus, spoke Aramaic, probably Hebrew, and possibly Greek. I do not speak any of these languages; yet I have faith that His words and actions, as recorded by the writers of the Gospels, are the true language of the Church.
Yes, Latin is the official language of the Church, just as it is the language of science. Official documents are written in Latin so that they can be preserved through the years without loss of translation. Just look at how the English word "gay" has transformed in 100 years!
I love the Latin mass! I love the beauty of the language. To me, it seems that while participating in the Latin Mass we are reminded that we are still not quite a part of the Heavenly banquet. We are there. We are participating. But we still don't have the full comprehension of it. There is a great reverence and a profound sense of mystery there. We get a taste of what it may be like, but the full realization is still clouded.
No, I don't expect to get to Heaven and hear Jesus speaking in Latin. Nor do I expect the angels to sing with the "thee's" and "thou's" of the KJV. But I do know that at the time, if I make it in, that the Word will be there and there will be no need of human tongues then. The Divine Word will speak and we all shall understand.
Beth
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 09:25 pm |
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My question might be something like this: (a) would those of you who are converts still have made the transition to Catholicism if the Mass had only been in Latin (obviously even then many did convert)?;
In my case, absolutely, because I was convinced that it was the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I would have joined it if the Mass were in Swahili or Sanskrit. I think much too much is made of this by many people (and Protestants, often for polemical purposes) because I believe the English translation was always printed side-by-side in the missal with the Latin. It should be no more difficult to follow than a Wagner opera with the German libretto on one side of the program notes and the English translation on the other, or a foreign movie with captions. I think the homilies were always given in English (i.e., vernacular) too.
The real "non-vernacular" Mass is one like we have at my parish: German language once a month. The missalette is completely German and so is the homily (my parish was historically all-German; not now but we have retained the connection to the past affiliation). We've been to those. But we know the basics of the Mass so it is not utterly without meaning.
(b) and what are your thoughts toward worshipping at a Latin Mass?
I love it. I've gone to Latin Mass (Novus Ordo) at my parish for almost 17 years now. I personally like it a lot better than the Tridentine Rite, because the latter is more repetitious, and I like the more "compact" liturgy better.
The initial attraction for me was almost "historical". I had no particular attraction to liturgy per se at the time I converted (in either English or Latin) because I had been attending churches with very informal worship indeed. But I was fascinated by the notion that this was how Catholics had worshiped for 2000 years. The more I have attended these, I've come to admire the Latin language, and it is really cool to pronounce it, I think because it has a certain appealing symmetry and meter. Part of that might be from having taken Spanish for a year.
The notion of "sacred language" also plays into this. Latin is a bit like Hebrew and Greek. One has this connection to many great saints of Church history who all worshipped in this language. To me that is highly significant. Vatican II urged that Latin be retained. We see that, unfortunately, it usually was not. Now things are starting to become more balanced again.
I think, then, that even if a Catholic doesn't resonate much with a Latin Mass, he should appreciate it for what it is, if only for historical reasons and continuity with the past, and advocate it, even if he or she thinks it is not for them. No one has to go to Latin Mass, and (very importantly) no one should be made to feel like a second-class Catholic if they prefer not to. The Mass is first and foremost about receiving Jesus in Holy Eucharist. The homily has never been the center of it, as it is in so many Protestant denominations. Homilies are good if they are well-done and informative and edifying and convicting, but they are not the focus of the Mass.
Last edited on Mon Jan 21st, 2008 09:30 pm by Dave Armstrong
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 198 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 02:19 am |
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I thought from the very beginning of my conversion (at the age of 16) that the Latin Mass was an advantage rather than a setback. I took a year of Latin in high school, as well as being bilingual in Spanish, and could have followed along easily with a missal if I'd had the chance.
I did not have that chance until last year, though I was confirmed in 2005. I was blown away by the solemnity of the Mass. It was hard to follow (my Latin being very rusty now) but each time I've gone it's been easier.
I love the English mass too, and as a second grade teacher, I think it is very appropriate with kids to use English and to sing songs they can learn easily (i.e. Seek Ye First, I Want to Walk as a Child of the Light, I Danced in the Morning.)
Nonetheless, I am thrilled that the Latin Mass is becoming more available, especially for those of us who came into the Church seeking the unbroken lineage of the People of God. Being able to worship in either way is another example of the meaning of the word "Catholic!"
Lisa
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 02:06 pm |
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To say that there were conversions in the Church over hundreds of years when the Mass was only in Latin is an understatement!
Church Latin is considered a dead and “sacred” language that provides grace in and of itself. That is a subject too large for this post.
The Mass has been in the vernacular for about 40 years now. Has understanding of, respect for and spirituality increased or decreased since then? Do we really understand the Mass any better since the introduction of the vernacular or have we lost the sense of mystery?
Perhaps "latin" is the misnomer here, since any of the Roman rite Masses can be said in Latin. In the 60s the old Mass was said in the vernacular. Aren’t we actually speaking of a different pre-Vatican II Mass?
In Latin or vernacular, the point is, the Mass is not a social prayer meeting but a conversation between the priest and God, which the congregation is privileged to hear. In fact, in the old days, we called it "hearing Mass". This participation didn't necessarily mean we had to understand it completely but that we prayed and put ourselves in the presence of God while this fantastic Mystery took place.
There were books galore explaining the Mass - and many ways to "hear" Mass or simply be present. One method I remember was the representation of the Passion that one could meditate on as the Mass the progressed. For instance, at the prayers at the foot of the altar, one meditates on the Agony in the Garden. At the consecration, one meditates on the death of Jesus. [My understanding of the old Mass gives me much more to go on when I attend the post-Vatican II Mass.]
The most important thing about Mass is the action of the priest, who prays on our unworthy behalf.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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