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germangreek
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | Lansing, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Richard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, (Charismatic and still) Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 03:20 am |
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Alright, I ran this by my son-in-law who's been studying Catholic theology in Europe, and even his instructors haven't considered this. I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to toss out the question first.
"And He humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know; that He might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but that man lives by eveything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD." Deut 8:3 (RSV).
So why, if God's purpose is to prove that man does not live by bread alone, does He give them bread (manna)?
This verse is quoted by Christ in Matthew's Gospel in response to Satan's first temptation following His fast.
As I said, I have my own thoughts, but I wonder what some others might come up with. My own readings of the Early Fathers have not come up with an exegesis, which is not to say that a good one isn't there.
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 03:43 am |
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germangreek wrote: So why, if God's purpose is to prove that man does not live by bread alone, does He give them bread (manna)?
It's not a doctrinal or theological explanation, just my opinion, but it seems clear to me. The key word is alone. Bread (that is, food and water) is necessary for existence, but eternal life requires more. It requires faith, study, knowledge and acceptance of the teachings of God as expressed in the Old Testament, of Jesus as expressed in the Gospels, and as continued in the rest of the New Testament and the teachings of the Church. Together they represent "every word that comes from the mouth of God".
But at no point did Jesus say that bread was not also necessary, just not bread alone for the life that matters, and that is the life of our immortal souls.
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
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| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 04:12 am |
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"And He humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know; that He might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but that man lives by eveything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD." Deut 8:3 (RSV).
So why, if God's purpose is to prove that man does not live by bread alone, does He give them bread (manna)?
Richard,
Just my guess and not necessarily theologically correct, but...
My guess is that in giving them Manna (bread from Heaven), God is indeed "proving" - if you want to use that word - that "man does not live by bread alone, but by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Why? Because manna is not of this earth. It's "heavenly" bread. It's not made of natural materials like wheat or oats or grain that are grown from the earth. It's not bread that humans "know" (e.g. "which you did not know, nor did your fathers know"). The manna "proceeds from the mouth of God," so to speak, because everything that God "speaks" comes into being. It's bread that's given directly by God without going through a "middle process" of being grown in the earth and harvested and baked by human hands.
In other words, maybe He was showing them they couldn't rely on themselves for all their needs; that toiling and labor and "taking control" of the earth and what it produces (such as grain for making bread) is not what's really needed for giving them [everlasting] life. Only God and His provision can truly give us life. Sure, we can toil and labor (we're supposed to!) and even live on our own, to a point (after all, even Atheists are able to live in this world), but for true and everlasting life, we can't provide for ourselves. In other words, God is in control, not us.
I'm kind of reminded of an old movie, "Shenandoah," in which Jimmy Stewart plays a widower father of a family that's soon to be torn apart by the Civil War. In one scene, before the war enters into their lives, he's saying grace at the table, and he says something like (paraphrasing), "Dear Lord, we thank you for this food that we're about to eat, and though we tilled the soil, planted the seeds, harvested the crops and baked it and made it into food all by ourselves, we thank you just the same. Amen." I have to laugh every time I think of that scene. I think sometimes we think that way - we wonder what we're thanking the Lord for when it seems we do all the work. But sometimes we reach a point where we hit bottom, and then God, as with the Israelites and their Manna in the desert, steps in and shows us He's the one in control, He's our Provider, while we can't really do anything on our own.
Just my 2 cents'...
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 04:35 am |
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The answer to your question, Richard, can be found in John 6:48–51:
I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.
The significance of the manna is explained in the same chapter, vv. 28–33:
Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.”
What proceeds from the mouth of the Lord is his Word, the Logos. The incarnation makes this Logos the true Bread. The prophecy comes true, the shadow is dissolved in light.
So there is miraculous bread (the type) and there is the true Bread (the antitype). Two different things entirely; the only similarity is that they are called “bread” or “food” (the same Hebrew word, lechem, is used for both). The one serves on the natural and physical level, the other on the spiritual and eternal level. This is why the crowd did not understand Jesus’ words, why he told them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves” (ibid., v. 26).
If you haven’t found passages in the Fathers and Doctors of the Church that refer to this, keep looking. You will.
David
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germangreek
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 26th, 2008 |
| Location: | Lansing, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 23 |
| First Name: | Richard | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, (Charismatic and still) Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 02:09 pm |
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Thanks for your thoughts. Of course, they're all helpful, and Jesus' explanation in John 6 is how we understand what's going on. My own additional thoughts are these.
We know that the manna is a type of the Eucharist, as Dave pointed out.
We also know that when God manifests Himself in a manner that can be experienced by the senses, it is the Word of God, the second person of the Trinity, Who is manifest. Thus it was the Word of God that Moses confronted in the burning bush, which is why the icons of Christ in the Eastern Churches have the phrase 'o wn' (the One Who is) in the halo. And St. Paul observes in the letter to the Corinthians that the rock that followed them - the Israelites in the desert - was Christ. So it seems reasonable to me that the manna also was Christ, and the Israelites really were living on the Word of God.
And I will keep searching the Fathers for this as well.
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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