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Free2Think
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
| First Name: | Maureen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born into Catholicism. 10 yrs communal cult &then dif. churches-reverting ... |
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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2007 10:10 pm |
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I was raised in Catholicism but left in my teens to join a group which ended up really abusing the concept of confession. We would have meetings for hours on end in which confession of sins in front of a group of people was manditory--no matter how hard individuals tried to be soul seaching and truly confess next to no one was ever deemed as sincere. This was a very harsh group, and we would even vote on each other--there often would be specific categories and one had to put oneself in a category. These meetings would go on for hours and be so brutal that sometimes I think I would have chosen to sleep on a bed of nails to avoid them. Meetings in which the leader was present were often times even worse. I still have scars from those days even though I have been gone 21 years.
As I'm contemplating a return to Catholicism this is something that has been on my mind. My trust has been shot, and the thought of opening myself to a member of the clergy about my sins has me terrified. I have been meeting regularly with a priest I know through my job. He told me he thought he would not be a good priest for this as he has played a role of giving direction in my life.
Anyway, any thoughts and most of all prayers are appreciated. When I finally get to the place of actually going to confession the next hurdle to overcome will be how my husband and daughter will view me. For now I will take this one hurdle at a time.
Many, many thanks to everyone for your support and prayers.
Maureen
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2007 10:48 pm |
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Free2Think wrote: the thought of opening myself to a member of the clergy about my sins has me terrified.
There are two possibilities I can think of that might help you to overcome this fear.
1. Ask your priest friend to recommend a confessor. Arrange to meet with him a few times in advance so you can get to know him before you confess to him. Perhaps he could even join you and your priest friend in one of your sessions, maybe even in a social setting (like maybe he could join you for lunch in the hospital cafeteria). Then, when you are comfortable, you can confess to him.
2. Make a completely anonymous confession. You may have to make a small effort to do this, as many parishes no longer have facilities for anonymous confession even though it is your right under Church law. Maybe it will be easier if you know there is absolutely no way the priest will ever know who you are. Ask your priest friend to suggest a place where you can confess anonymously.
Meanwhile, we will be praying with you amd for you.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu May 31st, 2007 03:50 pm |
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Free2Think wrote: I was raised in Catholicism but left in my teens to join a group which ended up really abusing the concept of confession. We would have meetings for hours on end in which confession of sins in front of a group of people was manditory--no matter how hard individuals tried to be soul seaching and truly confess next to no one was ever deemed as sincere. This was a very harsh group, and we would even vote on each other--there often would be specific categories and one had to put oneself in a category. These meetings would go on for hours and be so brutal that sometimes I think I would have chosen to sleep on a bed of nails to avoid them. Meetings in which the leader was present were often times even worse. I still have scars from those days even though I have been gone 21 years. This description sounds exactly like the cult I belonged to. At one point, we each sat in taped-off squares according to our category. My husband didn't sit with me since he was judged as "backslidden." The categories were judged in colors and the leader judged himself and his wife as "gold" because they were the only ones deemed worthy of "pleasing God." The meetings would start around 8 p.m. and end around 1 a.m. This was after many had worked all day!
As I'm contemplating a return to Catholicism this is something that has been on my mind. My trust has been shot, and the thought of opening myself to a member of the clergy about my sins has me terrified. I have been meeting regularly with a priest I know through my job. He told me he thought he would not be a good priest for this as he has played a role of giving direction in my life. I understand your fears. I, too, went through a period of withdrawal because I was so mistrusting toward others after living in that cult. Ten years after I left the cult, I went back to a meeting. I intended to face my fears headon. At first, as I entered the building where the meeting was taking place, an intense fear welled up inside of me. A sister in Christ had accompanied me, and she and I went into the lavatory to pray. When I came out, I was armed with confidence. The "leader" of this group verbally attacked me, but I was undaunted. I have met the most wonderful priest who has shown forbearance and kindness toward me, such as I have never experienced even from pastors in churches I have attended. I honestly believe I could trust this dear Father with anything and he would not use it against me or abuse my trust. I feel very blessed to have met him.
Anyway, any thoughts and most of all prayers are appreciated. When I finally get to the place of actually going to confession the next hurdle to overcome will be how my husband and daughter will view me. For now I will take this one hurdle at a time. I understand this too, Maureen. My husband at first, reacted toward my journey of faith to Catholicism with anger. He was unsupportive and cautioned me not to take this route. Since then, I have seen the Holy Spirit soften his heart i many ways. I spoke last week with our daughter about my desire to become Catholic and she is extremely supportive. In fact, I would actually say she is glad. So that hurdle has been taken care of. 
Many, many thanks to everyone for your support and prayers.
Maureen
Please continue to visit our forum. You will find much encouragement along the way.
God Bless You,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Free2Think
Member
| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
| First Name: | Maureen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born into Catholicism. 10 yrs communal cult &then dif. churches-reverting ... |
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Posted: Thu May 31st, 2007 04:18 pm |
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Darlene:
I cannot tell you how happy I am to get your post and hear from you. It's neat to know that there is someone else on here who went through COBU too.
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jun 1st, 2007 01:19 pm |
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I have met the most wonderful priest who has shown forbearance and kindness toward me, such as I have never experienced even from pastors in churches I have attended. I honestly believe I could trust this dear Father with anything and he would not use it against me or abuse my trust. I feel very blessed to have met him.
The Church teaches that if the priest breaks the seal of the confessional he loses his soul. Don't be afraid of him using it against your or betraying you.
some priests though are unnecessarily harsh. In my short experience, though I am conservative, I look for a priest for confession about whom people say, Father Insertnamehere is too liberal for me but he means well. I have found these "liberal" priests more likely to have thought about what it is like to have walked in your moccasins.
God bless all of your endeavors.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 263 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 02:05 pm |
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Annie's right about the seal of the confessional. Alfred Hitchcock even made a good movie about that, anybody know the name of it?
Maureen your story is shocking, and Darlene you have survived the same. God Bless you both!
Maureen, your fears are perfectly normal and shared by all of us. I can't tell you how many times I've sweat profusely in the confessional, and I've been going to confession all my life.
Maybe, instead of focusing on the difficulty of confession, focus instead on the fruits - the peace and serenity, the strength received. When my Baptist-convert husband made his first confession, his non-Catholic friends noted he looked suddenly ten years younger. My husband did not tell them about the confession. Crazy, huh? Not that the Church promises this younger look or anything.
Confession's primary objective is forgiveness of sin and the grace to overcome the sin you confess.
The secondary objective is spiritual advice.
Sometimes the two objectives are confused. When one doesn't receive kind advice and interest in the confessional, one might think the Sacrament less effective. I'm not arguing that it might be less pleasant.
My point is, even if the experience isn't pleasant, if your confession is sincere [contrite heart and a firm purpose of amendment] and when the priest says "I absolve you", you have received the Sacrament.
I forget too at times that I am not confessing to a priest and get caught up in who the priest is or how he might react. The priest acts In Persona Christi [In the Person of Christ], just as a priest does when he confects the Eucharist. I have to remind myself that I am confessing to Jesus Christ.
Words of Jesus to Sister Faustina (Divine Mercy)
"Come with faith to the feet of My representative...I myself am waiting there for you. I am only hidden by the priest... I Myself act in your soul... Make your confession before Me. The person of the priest is, for Me, only a screen. Never analyze what sort of a priest it is that I am making use of; open your soul in confession as you would to Me, and I will fill it with My light..."
I'm wondering if suffering abuse and overreaching control doesn't cause a reactive desire to control things in the abused. We have trouble letting go. I'm wondering if the fear doesn't come from this. In other words, the abused is afraid of what they can't control, of once again being taken advantage of... all that stuff. If this makes sense, then letting go and trusting the Holy Spirit might help. Pray for the desire of trust in God. Then frequently ask God for the gift of trust and overcoming fear.
For me, when weighed down by anger over the years, the only antidote has been to beg God to take away my anger and bitterness. I had to admit only God could help me.
Peace!
Tina
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dallas Area, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 197 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 3rd, 2007 06:19 pm |
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Wow, that cult sounds like hell. Literally.
I want to share with you that I went to confession last week and it was the scariest one I ever did. It was my third time to go to confession with my pastor. I really like and admire him. The confession wasn't awful because of him; it was scary because of what I had to confess (some things that happened a long time ago which I had recently figured out that I shouldn't have left out of my first confession to him--the one we all made right before Confirmation.)
So, at first I was afraid that he would be upset and say "How could you not tell me that before? What were you thinking?" But he didn't do that at all. He discussed the way we grow in grace and understanding and said we all have to grow and learn. He compared the guilty feelings and shame I was experiencing to the pain from burning your hand on a hot stove. God gives us those feelings, difficult as they are, to help us learn to avoid making the same mistakes again.
Basically I had learned by reading some very good books (by John Paul II, Cardinal Estevez, and Pope Benedict) and listening to Fr. Corapi* that NO parts of the Catechism were optional! It was the one confession that I really did not think I could find the courage (or humility) to make, but I was blessed with an encouraging and prayerful friend, and so I just couldn't "back out." Father urged me to go forward in a positive direction with my marriage rather than dwelling on the past. He was awesome: serious and direct, but gentle and kind too.
The feeling immediately afterward was "Thank God that's over" :? and some residual embarrassment, but this was replaced in the next couple of hours with a sensation of having lost about 10 pounds (which, unfortunately, my bathroom scale cannot corroborate) and I got this big smile. 
I think that once you make that first confession you will realize, "So THIS is what it's supposed to be like," and maybe some of that trauma from the past will be eased.
May the Holy Spirit give you courage before your confession and joy afterward.
Love, Lisa
*Fr. Corapi's CD on the Sacrament of Reconciliation is simply awesome. If you want a copy, I think it might be available on the EWTN web site.
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Free2Think
Member
| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
| First Name: | Maureen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born into Catholicism. 10 yrs communal cult &then dif. churches-reverting ... |
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Posted: Mon Jun 4th, 2007 04:26 pm |
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Everyone's posts have been really helpful and through this topic Darlene and I hooked up. We were in the same cult, and it so good to meet up again on this forum. So, I feel most blessed.
Someone made the comment about being the cult from hell...and in so many ways it is. I remember hearing about a couple of years ago, that they were volunteering for hell...because to admit their going to hell would be more honest than to assume their souls could be heaven bound. After leaving in deplorable living conditions, 18 hour work days, etc., etc., they can't even have any true peace in hope for a better eternal home. It is such a cruel place and there is a horrendous amount of bondage.
Mostly what I appreciate is the kind understanding that I sense on everyone's part. I still have near anxiety attacks when I think about going to confession, but little by little I'm feeling closer to feeling safe about this. The last time I went to confession was, I think, in my early or pre-teens, and I have little memory of it except that I was trying to think about how I could confess as little as possible and still get by. So, for all intensive purposes, this feels like I'm approaching the first time.
Lisa I think you were really brave, and I'm so glad that it all went so well for you.
Maureen
Last edited on Mon Jun 4th, 2007 04:26 pm by Free2Think
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jun 6th, 2007 02:30 pm |
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I am so sorry. I really hope and pray that God leads you to the right situation to repair you. I do not want to say anything that will prove false in your case because I suppose anything is possible but I do want to at least share some from my experience to encourage you.
Confession is probably one of the very best parts for me about being Catholic. At times the priest tells me I am judging myself too harshly. It is so helpful to have to confess to another person because it truly brings to light what I sound like and when I seem silly or when the sin really is serious. Just being able to hash through it and get an outside take is so comforting and the priests seem so willing to absolve.
Also, so long as you are sorry for your sins, or at least not openly not sorry, I would think the priest will most certainly absolve you. I know that might be scary coming from the cult where you judged each others intentions, but in confession the priest should take you at your word unless for some reason it is really obvious you are not sorry or intending to even try to do better. Maybe if you told him you were planning on killing and committing adultery as soon as the confession is over or flat out told him you were in no way sorry for your sins but just want the absolution, maybe then he may decide not to absolve, but anything short of this I think he pretty much will eagerly absolve. Even if you are less than as sorry as you could or should be by very virtue of your going there and trusting in the truth of the sacrament and wanting healing and forgiveness you will in no wise be turned away. That is what they are there to do. Catholic confession has nothing to do with condemnation and really does not overly scrutinize our intentions. How serious we are is between us and God. I think confession is there so that no matter how sure we are of ourselves, we know if we are at least even somewhat sincere, by nature of the sacrament we are truly forgiven for we have heard it proclaimed so but one speaking on God's behalf. It is there so we do not have to keep trying to prove ourselves perfectly contrite beyond all doubt but to know with certainty that the sin is gone so long as we were not openly and blatantly lying.
I think this will bring you some healing from the religious abuses of your past. Confession is all about seeing God's grace, mercy, compassion. We are not there to heap further abuse on ourselves, but to face the reality of being a sinner and get the medicine. It is as beautiful as the parable of the prodigal son. God may expect us to try to get back on the path and to do penance, but essentially this is nothing compared to the grace of knowing that as we turn back home to our Father He is actually runnning to greet us in mercy and fill our head with kisses and throw a party in our behalf. This is what returning to confession is all about. That no matter what you have done or confess God lovingly longs for you to come back to Him and treats you not as your sins deserve.
I am sure it can and will be emotionally difficult for you, nothing I could say will stop that. But I hope you can be encouraged. Every priest I have had has been so understanding. I think most of them realize that they have heard and seen most everything and it is their job not to judge but to help, heal, and most importantly absolve. Even if the priest is less than as compassionate as you need he will grant you the absolution and you will know that it never has to be confessed or worried about again. You will be free from the sin officially, the only problem being if you can't personally accept or believe this. And even then you are still forgiven, it is just that you are the one punishing yourself with doubt. And so long as you don't sin mortally you will not have to go back till Easter time or so if you do not want to.
However, I would encourage you (hoping that you will forget if it is bad advice) to try to find a good confessor and go monthly or bi-monthly (or more) or so because I think frequent confession with a good, sensitive, compassionate priest will be the anti-dote to what you experienced. Confession in my mind is the total opposite of what you described from your past. Every time I have gone I know I have received graces. Even when the priest gives me advice I already knew or penances that I thought too easy, something better has almost always come then when I was on my own, just because they flowed from the sacrament. The time I spent with God afterward is sweeter because I know I am encountering the Being of all kindness and love and am completely clean. My last penance was to read psalm 139, or to pray it, and upon contacting the person who I was seeking help dealing with, they had also been pondering that same passage in their hearts the same night that I was. Perhaps some would say that is just coincidence, but the priest seemed to tell me the exact thing that would bond me closer to this person somehow, and I would not have read that psalm again for a while (beautiful as it is) if I had not been told to do so. Most importantly the Psalm seemed to affirm to me that I need to believe that I am wonderfully made among other beautiful truths of the intimacy God shares with us.
Maybe you should fly out to my parish to make your confession, but seriously, I think their must be wonderful priests in every state. Perhaps if you get to know some Catholics and ask them which priest they know has been particularly easy for them.
I hope if I said anything wrong it will be corrected by somebody, and that the things that have been true in my experience will be true in yours. People are not perfect, but God loves perfectly and no matter what happens when you go you will be in His loving arms and free from the sin and hopefully not too psychologically damaged to move on. I can not promise you it will be easy or painless. I hope it will be wonderfull, but I do not underestimate your distress. Regardless, I know your soul will benefit greatly for returning if the Catholc faith is truly what you are ready to commit to.
If you do not even know if you want to accept Catholic teaching or submit yourself to a Catholic life, then perhaps there are other issues you may want to deal with first. Though I would recommend returning unless you know there is something you clearly are not ready to accept about the church. But I am just saying it would be weird to go through with confession and then discover you don't really believe in the real presence, or the nature of sacraments, or other theological or moral teachings of the church and just left again or never truly embraced it. Why go through the pain for that. You don't need to know everything, just that you have some idea of what you are committing to and are freely willing to do so of your own will. That way returning will be about the beautiful thing you are being welcomed into.
Not that you need to know and accept all of them (it takes a lifetime and more to know all these things), but that if there are any you openly disagree with or areas you seem too unfamiliar with you may want to pursue these things first before you confess and seek to live in harmony with the church. Again, if I am speaking incorrectly, please somebody come in and correct me. My point is not to tell you we do not want you if you do not believe or act perfectly. We do zealously want you with us and at peace, and we all make mistakes and none of us deserve the heritage of our Catholic faith; but it would seem unfair to you to return and submit yourself to something that you are unsure of. But this is not a place to be judged, but to be accepted and dealt with kindly, and if your treatment is ever anything less than that (we are not perfect) I pray you find a parish and priest where it will be all you need.
Sounds to me like you are very sincere, if you are concerned with your family accepting you and willing to undergo this fear. This takes courage, but in Gospels Jesus tells us, these things may arise. I admire your courage greatly and pray you will be rewarded richly.
please keep us updated.
Brian
Last edited on Wed Jun 6th, 2007 02:41 pm by brian
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 02:43 pm |
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Free2Think wrote: Everyone's posts have been really helpful and through this topic Darlene and I hooked up. We were in the same cult, and it so good to meet up again on this forum. So, I feel most blessed. I too, feel most blessed Maureen. And to think that it was only last July that we spoke with each other at the X-Cobu reunion for our brother Chris.
Someone made the comment about being the cult from hell...and in so many ways it is. I remember hearing about a couple of years ago, that they were volunteering for hell...because to admit their going to hell would be more honest than to assume their souls could be heaven bound. After leaving in deplorable living conditions, 18 hour work days, etc., etc., they can't even have any true peace in hope for a better eternal home. It is such a cruel place and there is a horrendous amount of bondage. Actually Maureen, the exact profession was, "I am volunteering for the Lake of Fire." I heard this from a former cult member when they left in 2002. I was shocked at how degenerated things had become since I had left.
Mostly what I appreciate is the kind understanding that I sense on everyone's part. I still have near anxiety attacks when I think about going to confession, but little by little I'm feeling closer to feeling safe about this. The last time I went to confession was, I think, in my early or pre-teens, and I have little memory of it except that I was trying to think about how I could confess as little as possible and still get by. So, for all intensive purposes, this feels like I'm approaching the first time.
Lisa I think you were really brave, and I'm so glad that it all went so well for you.
Maureen
Maureen, I agree with Brian's sentiments that you indeed want to be certain before you become Catholic. In other words, be sure that you are making this decision with full knowledge of what you are agreeing to. If you are anything like me, after leaving the Church of Bible Understanding, I never want to be duped again! I have been inquiring into the Catholic Church's teaching and doctrines because I want to know what it is I am supposed to believe and why. It is only with a deep understanding of the Church's teachings, a desire to believe them without any residual doubt, an ability to defend her teachings and doctrines, that I will be equiped and ready to embrace the Church fully. For those of you who do not realize, we in COBU accepted the teachings of the leader without question. Those who questioned were openly ridiculed, rebuked and implored to repent of their sin. Those who questioned the leader were exposed as "trips, backslidden and accused of dark, contentious motives." Therefore, coming out of such an environment, one does not want to enter another one that is remotely similar. And one wants to come to decisions regarding faith issues based on sensible reasoning and objective inguiry, with an open mind. Yet one must also be guarded not to ever be duped again. I like your profile name, FreetoThink. That is exactly how one feels when thrusting off the shackles of a mind controlling cult. Praise the Lord. Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 04:05 pm |
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Darlene wrote: Free2Think wrote:
Maureen, I agree with Brian's sentiments that you indeed want to be certain before you become Catholic. In other words, be sure that you are making this decision with full knowledge of what you are agreeing to. If you are anything like me, after leaving the Church of Bible Understanding, I never want to be duped again! I have been inquiring into the Catholic Church's teaching and doctrines because I want to know what it is I am supposed to believe and why. It is only with a deep understanding of the Church's teachings, a desire to believe them without any residual doubt, an ability to defend her teachings and doctrines
I am glad you agree, though I would also warn against trying to be 100% beyond any doubt certain. Who knows when the time is right to make the leap, but I will say that it will still take faith in the midst of some uncertainty in the end. My point is to make sure one knows enough about the faith and does not move forward if there are still areas of significant disharmony or things we know we do not plan on submitting to. But if the confession issue is the only thing keeping her back then I think she should try to move forward relatively soon. If there are other issues or things she is not sure of or informed about then I would think she should indeed take as much time to make a good decision she plans on sticking with.
But I am glad you are trying to make an informed decision and I greatly admire the integrity and charity with which you seek, but I also hope you will be able to make the leap even if there are still uncertainties if and when you discern that the Holy Spirit is nudging you to move forward. We will never know everything and have all the issues solved. I think we simply need to cross a certain line of trust and confidence in the church that we are willing to submit to what we still are questioning and giving the benefit of the doubt that we will see the truth in time as we need to. But if we know we can not agree with something or will not obey something or do not have this trust or feel properly informed, then I think this is a reson to wait longer.
I guess for me it was a mix of intellect and instinct. I do not know I had all my questions answered, but more than enough pieces fit together that I knew I had to trust the church if she was so consistent on so much else. But each of us are different and I appreciate your case better now that I see more of the background.
For those of you who do not realize, we in COBU accepted the teachings of the leader without question. Those who questioned were openly ridiculed, rebuked and implored to repent of their sin. Those who questioned the leader were exposed as "trips, backslidden and accused of dark, contentious motives." Therefore, coming out of such an environment, one does not want to enter another one that is remotely similar. And one wants to come to decisions regarding faith issues based on sensible reasoning and objective inguiry, with an open mind. Yet one must also be guarded not to ever be duped again.
The only thing I would say here is that it can be very difficult to submit fully to a human institution whos leaders can fall into corruption and are sinners. I can see why from your background being Catholic would be difficult. To once more give up your personal freedom to decide. However, there are some important diffeences. For one, the church is not simply the pope or one or two leaders. She moves cautiously and slowly and led by the Holy Spirit. If we believe the Holy Spirit could have led humans to create a book full of truth such as the bible, we know it is possible to guide us into truth as a church. So it is not that you are accepting without question one individual or one small parish. We have order, we have history, we have accountability. We have scripture and a catechism. We have good leaders. Also we know where we stand for as powerful as our leaders are, they are not allowed to change any doctrine or dogmas. So really we essentially are trusting 2,000 years of history built on the apostles and safeguarded by the church. We are not subject to the whims and opinions of humans but follow the church that the gates of hell can not prevail against.
I guess I hope yor cult experience may push you more toward the Catholic church where there is authority and much accountability for leadership to be bound by something that all of us can openly see. Whatever personal mistakes they make can not change or ruin the faith or condemn us if we are obeying what we know of the church to be divinely inspired. Cults like these seem to only prove to me how dangerous it can be to be separated from the church and following private interpreatation principles of the reformation.
Anyway, I am not trying to lecture you. I think sometimes once I start talking I have trouble stopping. You probably know all of this. And again it has been a privilege to share the journey with you. I pray all the best for you and your family and think you are going about things with a good mindset. I just wanted to argue against a person trying to be beyond any trace of any doubt 100% sure. This would be more of a sceince than a faith. Still, you probably already realized this and were not necessarily implying that. So basically I agree with everything you said, if not taken to an exaggerated extent as regards to the term residual doubt.
I still have doubt from time to time but I have experiences so much in the midst of moving ahead. Everyone is different and God knows what we all need and provides it through grace. So what I needed will be different than you or others. But in my experience I think it is important to distinguish between a true doubt and my more obsessive nagging doubts that simply will never go away. Maybe this has to do with knowing ourselves better. I am very obsessive so I am amazed I ever moved forward because I do not have a lot of mercy on myself as far as doubting and seeking things out. Eventually I have to see where my needs were met and where I was doubting out of fear of habit. I do know I needed to address a lot of my doubts and that as things moved ahead I was more and more thrilled and enthusiastic about becoming Catholic. So I did need to answer quite a lot of personal theological concerns, but I also ran in circles much of the time and needed to eventually let go of some things. Slowly but surely I gained greater peace and circled my way in, and am so happy with what I have gained. Still I do believe in thinking things through and not committing intellectual suicide, but for me I eventually had to jump when I could not ask for more.
Anyway, I hate to take any too much credit or speak too confidently on conversion, because really It was mostly God's work and when I was most despairing He seemed to draw me back or give me satisfactory answers one way or another.
I hope you both reah the points you need to reach to make the jump. I am sure there will be similarities and differences regarding How the Spirit leads and what needs you need to have met.
Brian
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CajunRick
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 05:06 pm |
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In doing some research I happened upon this link from EWTN. It's a teacher's lesson plan for a religion class on cults, and I was wondering what you (Maureen and Darlene) thought of it, particularly as regarding the descriptions of what constitutes a cult.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 07:31 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: In doing some research I happened upon this link from EWTN. It's a teacher's lesson plan for a religion class on cults, and I was wondering what you (Maureen and Darlene) thought of it, particularly as regarding the descriptions of what constitutes a cult.
Rick, I just finished reading the link. It is excellent. Actually, it took me back to my cult experience. I will start a new topic on my cult experience just to expound a bit on the link you provided.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Free2Think
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
| First Name: | Maureen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born into Catholicism. 10 yrs communal cult &then dif. churches-reverting ... |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 10:55 pm |
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After having been through COBU I can never again just totally give myself to human authority this side of heaven. I will always question and give myself permission to disagree. I don't think it's the same as being rebellious, but I feel like I've experienced a rape of the soul, and just as physical rape would leave a woman more prudent, this has altered me permanently. There is a certain kind of innocence that I've lost. I envy people who have it because I once did too. After COBU I had two very damaging experiences in fringe churches, and I found myself despairing why God would allow me to go through that after having been through a destructive cultic experience. Yet, I feel my life is a good example of the grace of God and the endurance of the human spirit.
Honestly, I never ever thought that I'd be contemplating a return to Catholicism. Yet, here I am. I am struck by how there is in fact a lot more accountability. Some of the crazy things I saw both in COBU and in the fringe churches are a lot less likely to happen in Catholicism. I had to get to the point that I realized that my questionings, lack of trust, etc. were not too hard for God to handle. When I was able to really grasp that fact about God deep in my soul I slowly began to heal and rejuvenate spiritually.
It would be a much easier route not to be considering Catholicism. This is taking me way out of my comfort zone. Yet, I know I'm being true to something that I need to be true to.
Maureen
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Free2Think
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | New York USA |
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| First Name: | Maureen | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born into Catholicism. 10 yrs communal cult &then dif. churches-reverting ... |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 11:30 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: In doing some research I happened upon this link from EWTN. It's a teacher's lesson plan for a religion class on cults, and I was wondering what you (Maureen and Darlene) thought of it, particularly as regarding the descriptions of what constitutes a cult.
I had written a reply to this, and it didn't seem to post so I'll write it again. Fr. James LeBar is widely respected in the cult education field. He wrote a book Cults, Sects and the New Age that is highly regarded. There really needs to be more books on cults written from a Catholic perspective....his is one of the few. According to some experts, Catholics and non-religious Jews are the biggest targets of cult recruiters. I've actually have seen him at some of the conferences on cults that I've attended.
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