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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 11:44 am |
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Okay, I'm good with the idea of confession and all, but I guess my question is, is confession ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the forgiveness of sins after baptism, and if so, why?
Also, if confession is absolutely necessary, what happens to all the protestants who obviously never go to confession? Are there sins, then, not forgiven? But, wouldn't that mean they're going to hell? And I know they're not, and that the RCC doesn't say that they are. God judges the heart, etc, but if God judges the heart, is confession necessary?
Once again, I like the idea of confession, doing it makes sense and all, I guess I'm just not quite clear, though on whether it's completely necessary for forgiveness and if so, why.
Thanks!
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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japhy
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:29 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: Okay, I'm good with the idea of confession and all, but I guess my question is, is confession ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the forgiveness of sins after baptism, and if so, why?
Also, if confession is absolutely necessary, what happens to all the protestants who obviously never go to confession? Are there sins, then, not forgiven? But, wouldn't that mean they're going to hell? And I know they're not, and that the RCC doesn't say that they are. God judges the heart, etc, but if God judges the heart, is confession necessary?
Jesus granted his Apostles the power to forgive the sins of others (cf. John 20:23). This was not a power they themselves contained, but was the carrying out of the "ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor 5:18) by which the forgiveness of sins granted by God is administered through the priesthood of Jesus Christ, through the priests in his Church (in persona Christi capitis).
This forgiveness is different from our ability to forgive one another. If you punch me, I can forgive you. But if you punch someone else, what good is my forgiving you? You must be forgiven by the one you wronged. That is why it was so scandalous that Jesus would tell some their sins were forgiven -- since he was implying either a) God had given him permission to forgive sins against another person, or b) he was God. The ministry of reconciliation -- confession of sins to a priest -- is what the Church provides so that we have access to the graces of forgiveness.
But at the same time, it is our duty -- part of our penance -- to seek reparations for our wrongdoing; that is why a priest, after granting you absolution for punching John Q. Neighbor, might include as part of your penance the act of seeking personal reparations with John. It is one thing to be forgiven for breaking a window: it is another to fix that window. For an example of what I mean, read the beginning of Luke 19, about Zacchaeus. Look at what this man does after Jesus said he would stay at his house. This man, a sinner, aware that Jesus is forgiving him his sins, promises to make reparations for his fraudulent past!
It is possible to perform an act of perfect contrition without going through the established ministry, but for those who can go to confession proper, it is expected of them. Reconciliation is the ordinary means. How God chooses to have mercy on and forgive those who cannot receive this sacrament or do not know of it, that is up to God. God is just and merciful, and it is His Word -- not mine -- that will settle the matter at the end of the day.
Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:33 pm by japhy
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: Okay, I'm good with the idea of confession and all, but I guess my question is, is confession ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the forgiveness of sins after baptism, and if so, why?
Yes, it is absolutely necessary for those who know it is absolutely necessary, in the same way that murder is a crime for those who know it is a crime. Little children, the mentally challenged, etc., are not held to the same standard when a District Attorney considers filing murder charges, and God will not hold the ignorant to the same standard when they have been wrongly taught, through no fault of their own, that confession is not necessary.
As humans, we need to seek forgiveness from those we offend. It's not just a religious imperative. AA and similar 12-step programs include confession to those we've wronged as one of the steps.
When we sin, we sin against God, but doesn't St. Paul tell us that the entire Body of Christ is wounded? God forgives us, but aren't we obligated from a moral standpoint to seek forgiveness from all those we have sinned against? The first Christians confessed publicly to the entire congregation, and then did public penance. As the concept of sin became better understood, more and more sins were confessed and the process became unwieldy, and confession to the priest as a representative of the Church became the norm. So when we confess to the priest, we are confessing our sin through him to the entire Body of Christ which we have wounded. He forgives us on behalf of the Church as well as in the person of Christ, and the penance he assigns us is our reparation to the Church as well as to God. It is designed not for our punishment but for our improvement.
Our Savior gave us the sacrament of Penance because he understood human nature. Those who frequent the Sacrament of Penance have a much lower incidence of suicide than the rest of the population. They rarely divorce, have fewer mental illnesses, are seldom depressed, etc. "Confession is good for the soul." Like the other sacraments, Jesus designed them to fill our human needs with grace leading to salvation. And the sacraments of healing (Penance and Anointing of the Sick) are particularly beneficial from the standpoint of our humanity.
Also, if confession is absolutely necessary, what happens to all the protestants who obviously never go to confession?
Many of them do confess, although not in a sacramental manner. They tell their pastors, their friends, their Internet forum buddies, their co-workers, their bartender, their hair dresser, etc. It's an imperfect confession but they are trying to fill the human need for freedom from guilt. The situation is very similar to those Protestants who never receive Eucharist, even though Jesus told us we must eat the flesh of the Son of Man. God will not hold them accountable for their ignorance, but they will suffer without the benefit of the sacramental graces being offered.
Are there sins, then, not forgiven? But, wouldn't that mean they're going to hell? And I know they're not, and that the RCC doesn't say that they are. God judges the heart, etc, but if God judges the heart, is confession necessary?
God forgives sins independently of the Church. What they will lack is the fulfillment of sacramental grace. They will still confess but never receive the release of the absolute knowledge that their transgressions are forgiven. There is power in the words "I absolve you of your sins". A Catholic hears those words spoken by someone who actually has the God-given power to deliver that forgiveness. A Protestant will never receive that lifting of their burden.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 03:15 pm |
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This does help clear things up, it really does. It's the same with Baptism, right, that it's required only if you know it's required? Otherwise there is the implied baptism of desire. I think this is CCC 1260. Anyway, I'm still confused about one thing.
CajunRick wrote:
God forgives sins independently of the Church. What they will lack is the fulfillment of sacramental grace. They will still confess but never receive the release of the absolute knowledge that their transgressions are forgiven. There is power in the words "I absolve you of your sins". A Catholic hears those words spoken by someone who actually has the God-given power to deliver that forgiveness. A Protestant will never receive that lifting of their burden.
God forgives sins independantly from the Church - does that mean that even someone who knows they should go to confession is forgiven by God if he confesses is sin to God and is truly repentant and contrite? This makes it sound like it is just a good idea to go to confession, something that will bring you grace and help you and reconcile you to the Church. I suppose the counter could be that someone who knows he should go to confession and chooses not to isn't really repentant. Still, it's confusing. I guess maybe it's just all wrapped up together.
Realize too that as I think these things through I am constantly trying to make sure I can counter any argument brought against me. I can just see one of my many protestant friends saying "but Catholics believe that priests, not God, forgive sin," in thier list of objections when they find out that I'm going to become Catholic.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 03:27 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: CajunRick wrote:
God forgives sins independently of the Church.
God forgives sins independantly from the Church - does that mean that even someone who knows they should go to confession is forgiven by God if he confesses is sin to God and is truly repentant and contrite?
God has handed the power to forgive sins to the Church. A Catholic is bound to the sacrament. However, God forgives the sin of such a person immediately upon repentance as long as that person has a firm intention to confess in a timely manner. A person who dies before confessing has been forgiven by God. A person who refuses to confess is not only not forgiven, but is guilty of another sin in failing to submit to the authority of the Church.
A British subject can be jailed for failing to offer proper courtesy to the queen. An American would not face the same punishment for the same offense since they acted out of ignorance.
So a Catholic who adamantly refuses to receive the Sacrament of Penance will not be forgiven, but a Catholic who has not yet had the reasonable opportunity to receive the sacrament will be forgiven.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 03:35 pm |
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Okay, that makes sense. I really do like the idea of confession, I mean it makes sense to me and seems so comforting. And that clears up everything else, really. The thing is, though, that those who don't want to understand won't. I mean, the question they would ask is, how do we know that is really how God wanted it? And I can't prove that to someone who doesn't want to accept it. It's not like Jesus explained exactly how the sacrament of reconciliation was to work. Although there is scripture, and just the way it developed in the early church, starting with public confession - they truly believed that without confession (and not just personal confession to God) there was no forgiveness. Anyway, thanks.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 04:25 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: Although there is scripture, and just the way it developed in the early church, starting with public confession - they truly believed that without confession (and not just personal confession to God) there was no forgiveness. Anyway, thanks.
Yes, but there were also only three sins that could be confessed: adultery, apostacy, and murder. A person who committed these sins often did penance for years, and during their time of penance they were not admitted into the community. Absolution was given only by the bishop, and only after the time of penance.
In the early Church, Christians were literally risking their lives every time they met. To admit a sinner into their midst was to allow a traitor knowledge of the community. The traitor had to prove himself worthy of admission back into the faith before he could be trusted not to give them up to the authorities. Public confession was practical in a congregation of 20 meeting in someone's home under cover of darkness. It became impractical when Christianity was legalized and congregations grew to a point where there were a thousand or more who did not know each other intimately. Confession was basically a once in a lifetime chance to "start over", and many people simply delayed their baptism until they were near death so they could avoid the risk of sinning and being unable to obtain forgiveness. Irish missionaries were the first to introduce the idea of frequent, private confession and absolution, and it quickly spread.
Jesus made it clear that God wants to forgive us. He told Peter he should forgive not seven times but seven times seventy seven times. How does this reconcile with the practice in the early Church to forgive only once? And Jesus does not tell us that the Prodigal Son was told to spend three years in sackcloth and ashes before his father would welcome him to the table. He was admitted immediately when he confessed his sin.
The practice in the early Church was necessary for the survival of the community, but once that was no longer an issue, it became possible to reconsider the words of Jesus and reconsider how the sacrament should be practiced. And so the practice changed.
Thank God!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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JillD
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 06:24 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: The thing is, though, that those who don't want to understand won't. I mean, the question they would ask is, how do we know that is really how God wanted it? And I can't prove that to someone who doesn't want to accept it.
I've just finished listening to the 5 CD set from Catholic Answers of Tim Staples debating Steve Gregg. It was really good and, of course, I think Tim won the debate, but no matter how much logic or Scripture or history Tim threw at him, he wouldn't budge. He had some sort of answer. Now who knows down the road which of Tim's arguments might begin to sink in and take root, but I guess that's the work of the Holy Spirit. Tim sowed the seed and there was no obvious change in the soil of Steve's heart AT ALL, but Steve certainly heard it all. Now he's responsible for his response.
I used to get frustrated when people wouldn't see things my way when I had such good evidence on my side, but I've realized that people are blind and stubborn and prideful (never me, of course! ha!) and that all you can do is state your case as clearly as you possibly can and then walk away. Arguing gets you nowhere. No matter how good your argument, the other guy can always find an authority more knowledgeable than you are, and you find one better than that, ad nauseum.
Make your case and let it go. But do prepared to give an answer! And that's what you're doing here. Bravo!
Jill
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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