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Truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Nov 16th, 2006 06:32 pm |
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My sister in law asked me why I confess to a priest when the bible says to confess directly to God. Where does the bible say that?
Laura
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Nov 16th, 2006 07:39 pm |
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Though this isn't to a priest, the Bible does say in James 5:16 that we should confess our sins to each other ... so that we may be healed. Also, in John 20:23, Jesus gave his apostles the right to forgive or retain sins. From the apostles, this authority was given to the bishops and then to the priests, though this latter is the Tradition of the Church.
I'm sure it's in there, but I couldn't find a command that we confess our sins to God. Do you have a reference for that? Wait. Found one: Psalm 51. Mostly when the Bible says confess, at least in my brief use of a concordance, it's vague as to how the confession is made as far as to whom it is made.
I'll be interested to see other responses.
Last edited on Thu Nov 16th, 2006 07:41 pm by JillD
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Sat Nov 18th, 2006 03:06 pm |
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That's why I ask. I would love to be able to answer that the bible DOESN'T say to confess only to God, but I don't know if it does or doesn't. I wonder if that's one of those assumed verses. Anyone know if it's in there, for sure?
Laura
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Nov 18th, 2006 03:54 pm |
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Truthseeker wrote: That's why I ask. I would love to be able to answer that the bible DOESN'T say to confess only to God, but I don't know if it does or doesn't. I wonder if that's one of those assumed verses. Anyone know if it's in there, for sure?
I am not aware of any verse that says confess only to God. Ask her for a reference.
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Luvadoxi
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Posted: Sat Jan 13th, 2007 03:13 am |
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I forget where it is, but she's probably referring to the verse where it says we can "boldly approach the throne of God." This was explained to us in a Baptist study group as such a good thing because we can go directly to God and not through a priest, "like the Catholics". However, nowhere in this verse does it say we can *only* go directly to God and not share our concerns with other people. Boldly approaching the throne of grace--there's no reason Catholics can't do this, too in prayer--also, going through a priest in confession *is* going directly to God. It's sad when a verse is taken out of context as though it were written as an attack on the sacrament of confession! I do have to say, not having the verse in front of me, I don't remember what it's in reference to--it very well may be regarding the confession of sins. But since this preceded 2000 years of Church history, I'm sure it wasn't a dig on Catholics!
Does anyone know where this verse is and what it specifically refers to (prayer in general, or confession of sins?)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jan 13th, 2007 10:04 am |
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Luvadoxi, you are probably thinking of Hebrews 4:14–16:
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
This refers to accepting (“confessing”) Jesus as one’s Lord and Savior, for he is really human as well as divine, and thus has the power to atone for us humans. In other words, it has to do with faith, not forgiveness.
David
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BodRod
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Posted: Sat Jan 13th, 2007 11:38 am |
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I would rather confess to a priest than how they did it in the old days when they confessed their sins before the entire church!!! (1 Timothy 6:12) 
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Juan
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Posted: Sat Jan 13th, 2007 08:00 pm |
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My sister in law asked me why I confess to a priest when the bible says to confess directly to God. Where does the bible say that?
The Protestant confusion seems to be between confession and forgiveness. What I mean is, they think that Catholics believe that we are forgiven by the human priest of our sins. But that is not true. Only God forgives sins:
Only God forgives sin
CCC#1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.
Here are some verses which Protestants use to justify their belief that only confession of sins directly to God is valid:
Psalm 32:5
I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.
Mark 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
However, they ignore these verses:
in the Old Testament:
The people gathered before Moses to be judged:
Exodus 18:13
And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
But, in accordance to Jethro's advice, Moses established a corp of judges to judge the people:
Exodus 18:26
And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.
In addition, in the Old Testament, God gave specific instructions to bring a sin offering to a priest. The Priest would sacrifice the offering and the sin would be forgiven. (Leviticus 5).
Note how the Priest is confused with the Lord. In other words, the layperson is told to bring the sacrifice to the Lord, but he brings it to the Priest?
Follow along:
First, sins are described:
Leviticus 5 1And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
2Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
3Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.
4Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
Then, the sin is acknowledged and confessed. To whom?:
5And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
I think we can assume that the sin is confessed to the priest.
Malachi 2:7
For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
(Back to Leviticus). Then he brings the sin offering to the LORD:
6And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering;
Note the switch:
and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
So, bringing the offering to the priest is the same as bringing it to the Lord.
And when Catholics confess to the Priest, it is the same as confessing to the Lord (see CCC#1441 above).
Protestants object that we are under a New Covenant and the priesthood is eliminated. But that is wrong, the Old Covenant is a shadow of the New Covenant and is designed in precisely the same way:
Hebrews 8:5
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Here are some more prooftexts for the validity of Catholic confession to a Priest:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html
So, the Catholic model of confession to a priest is very much like that described in the Old Testament. And that is precisely what one would expect. The Old Covenant was not a false covenant. It was made to the pattern of the heavenly Covenant which is the one we live in today in the Catholic Church.
I hope this has helped.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Luvadoxi
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Posted: Sat Jan 13th, 2007 10:20 pm |
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David, yes that's the passage--thank you for clearing that up about forgiveness/faith. That's what was used to show that we should confess our sins directly to God and not to a man--definitely reading more into the passage than is meant, even if it *did* refer to forgiveness of sins.
Juan--wow! What a great discussion! As a lifelong former Protestant, we would definitely have said the New Covenant supersedes the sacrifices of the Old Covenant, and we now have one priest in Christ Jesus. I'm definitely and firmly Catholic, and love the connections with the Old Covenant (have you ever heard Mitch Pacwa's tapes on this--they're amazing!)--it really helps with demolishing anti-Semitic tendencies, too. However, old inner tapes still run--I was catechized Presbyterian and Lutheran, so it's a lifelong process relearning things. Sometimes I'm misunderstood as attacking the faith when I'm trying to figure things out, but I'm not. It's hard to sort out truth from non-truth, especially since the faith that I learned was very close to the truth in many ways. I still struggle with faith vs. works. If I talk to a cradle Catholic about it, they're totally perplexed--they don't "get it" at all--so clearly I learned things in a different way.
I hope the original poster sees this discussion....
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Juan
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Posted: Sat Jan 13th, 2007 10:53 pm |
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Hi Luvadoxi
I still struggle with faith vs. works.
Since penance or confession is one of the works we must do in order to be saved, I don't think it would be out of place to put a short explanation here about the Protestant doctrine of faith alone vs. the Catholic doctrine of faith and works.
First, I would like to clarify that there is no struggle between faith and works. Faith itself is a work:
John 6:28-29
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
To have faith in God is to believe in God. When the Jews ask Jesus, "what must we do?" He answers, "believe on Him whom He sent." In other words, "believe in Me."
Next, many Protestants seem to believe the Catholic Church teaches that works ALONE will get them to heaven. That isn't true.
The Catechism:
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"
But the Catholic Church also doesn't teach that faith ALONE will get you to heaven either:
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But "faith apart from works is dead": when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
That is in accordance with Scripture:
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
In other words, our faith is shown forth in our works. People without faith will not work in obedience to God. Certainly, they might work, but only for their own satisfaction, to get as much as they give:
Luke 6:34
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
And finally, many Protestants actually believe the Catholic Teaching but deny it. Their definition of "living faith" is the same as the Catholic Doctrine of faith and works. In my opinion.
Sincerely,
Juan
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jan 13th, 2007 11:17 pm |
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Luvadoxi wrote:However, old inner tapes still run--I was catechized Presbyterian and Lutheran, so it's a lifelong process relearning things. Sometimes I'm misunderstood as attacking the faith when I'm trying to figure things out, but I'm not. It's hard to sort out truth from non-truth, especially since the faith that I learned was very close to the truth in many ways. I still struggle with faith vs. works. If I talk to a cradle Catholic about it, they're totally perplexed--they don't "get it" at all--so clearly I learned things in a different way.
Since many inquirers, recent converts and returnees come to this forum, users here are quite used to this “old tape” phenomenon and try to take it into account in every response. If you are still struggling to understand certain things about your faith, why don’t you post a question about one or another of those topics, explaining what you can about your confusion? (Note that the forum is organized according to topic, so we ask everyone to keep threads to a single topic.) I’m sure you will receive a number of helpful replies.
David
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Luvadoxi
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 05:27 am |
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Thanks for the help and recommendation. It's just that, I received faith as a gift, and yet I've always known it's also a work--and that that's in Scripture. As a Protestant who never even considered or knew anything about Catholicism, I thought the problem was with me--when actually it was all the different theologies within Protestantism--I was looking for unity when there was none.
Anyway, it ties in with confession because the problem is I'm hung up on how much is enough when you never feel like it's enough. And no one has been able to help me much with the difference between mortal and venial sin. The best advice I got was don't worry about it, do your best, and throw yourself on Christ's mercy. OK...but God seems a lot unfriendlier than he did before--I know he's not, but that's the muddle I'm stuck in. An Eastern Catholic priest told me they don't stress the mortal/venial thing so much; you know, receive Communion, and if you have something weighing on your conscience, go to confession--maybe he was just tailoring his advice to my worry--but that didn't seem to quite fit in with the Catechism. I think I've reached the point where I need the "lived" reality of Catholic life, not just reading the rules out of the Catechism--and I haven't been able to really find that--how to apply the "rules" to life. Otherwise, I'm stuck in Martin Luther's scrupulosity problem. I mean, I *understand* what he meant by "sin boldly"--it's not telling people to go out and sin--it's to have confidence that you can throw yourself at the foot of the Cross and beg for mercy. Somehow I'm missing something, and every once in a while it all makes sense. But I can't explain it to anyone without boring people or getting scolded as a heretic (being told that as a Catholic you're not supposed to be doubting or asking these questions) or told I'm committing the sin of despair, or being patronized. The priests are too busy--really I don't bother them--at first I cornered them 2 or 3 times but now I don't bother with it--and just plain tired of hearing about it all.
And I can feel, OK, there must be something I've done wrong if I don't have inner peace because I know I'm too lazy to do as much work, as in charity work, or giving money to others rather than overspending on myself, as I probably ought to do...but I don't have real specific things to confess (yes, I did confess those. But I keep doing them!). I have either a scrupulous conscience or a new convert problem or something regarding when to receive Communion or not, and if one mortal sin can send you to hell, and we're capable of self-delusion--how on God's green earth are we supposed to be able to figure this out?
Oh, well--it helps to talk it out here! And I am much better, thanks be to God, this year than the last 2 years (converted in 2003)--in 2005 I almost had a physical and mental breakdown.
I'll keep in mind the specific forums, too. Thank you for your help! 
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 12:42 pm |
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Luvadoxi wrote:
Anyway, it ties in with confession because the problem is I'm hung up on how much is enough when you never feel like it's enough. And no one has been able to help me much with the difference between mortal and venial sin. The best advice I got was don't worry about it, do your best, and throw yourself on Christ's mercy.
In essence, that's correct. Mortal sin is a total rejection of God's love and grace. It's saying, "I know God loves me and doesn't want me to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway. I know better than God." Our Church tells is that in order for a sin to be mortal, it must be a gravely evil act that I know is gravely evil, and I knowingly do it anyway. Any serious violation of the Ten Commandments is a mortal sin. Missing mass on days proscribed by the Church without a valid reason is a mortal sin because it violates the commandment to worship God on the Lord's Day. Murder is a mortal sin, but destroying someone reputation deliberately can be gravely evil also.
A sin is called "mortal" because it causes the death of God's grace in me through my refusal to do God's will. Mortal sin is not an accident; it is a deliberate act. It always causes harm to me, my relationship with God, or to another person. If I repent, if I turn my life back toward God, God instantly forgives me. I am still obliged to confess the sin to a priest at the first opportunity, so that I may receive forgiveness from the Church, guidance, and penance, but I do it knowing that I am already back in God's loving protection. Dying in the state of unrepented mortal sin does indeed condemn me to hell, but it is because I have refused God's love, not because God has stopped loving me.
OK...but God seems a lot unfriendlier than he did before--I know he's not, but that's the muddle I'm stuck in. An Eastern Catholic priest told me they don't stress the mortal/venial thing so much; you know, receive Communion, and if you have something weighing on your conscience, go to confession--maybe he was just tailoring his advice to my worry--but that didn't seem to quite fit in with the Catechism.
The Eastern concept of Theosis is a different approach to sin, forgiveness, and salvation. To Eastern Catholics, things are not quite so black and white. They don't really define sin as "mortal" and "venial" but rather as degrees of sinfulness. They recognize that a deliberate rejection of God's love destroys our relationship with God, but don't necessarily see a single act as causing that destruction. The terminology and approach is different.
The result is the same; a grave evil, knowingly and willingly done, rejects God's love and condemns us by our own choice, but repentance once again opens us to God's loving providence. In Eastern theology, Original Sin is not a stain to be removed by baptism, but an inclination to sinfulness that is to be overcome through the graces received at baptism.
This is a simple overview of a complicated concept and is by no means a complete explanation of the difference, but the result is the same. If we reject God's love by willingly and knowingly committing a gravely evil act, we are condemned by our own actions; when we repent, we again open ourselves to God's love and regain God's freely given gift of salvation. Failing to confess to a priest is a gravely evil act of its own, so we are not then "unforgiven" of the first sin, but we have committed another by failing to submit to the God-given authority of the Church.
I think I've reached the point where I need the "lived" reality of Catholic life, not just reading the rules out of the Catechism--and I haven't been able to really find that--how to apply the "rules" to life. Otherwise, I'm stuck in Martin Luther's scrupulosity problem. I mean, I *understand* what he meant by "sin boldly"--it's not telling people to go out and sin--it's to have confidence that you can throw yourself at the foot of the Cross and beg for mercy.
I think you're right, but many Protestants have taken it as a license to sin, and that is unfortunate. I think this statement in part has led to the misunderstanding of "once saved, always saved".
Somehow I'm missing something, and every once in a while it all makes sense. But I can't explain it to anyone without boring people or getting scolded as a heretic (being told that as a Catholic you're not supposed to be doubting or asking these questions) or told I'm committing the sin of despair, or being patronized.
The sin of despair is a total loss of hope in God's loving mercy. It leads us to believe we are not worthy of God's salvation, and it is the one unforgivable sin (the sin against the Holy Spirit) because if we think we're unworthy of God's love, we will not ask for it. Jesus said, "Ask and you shall receive." If we don't ask because we feel unworthy, we cannot be forgiven. Somehow, I don't think you're anywhere near that point.
Questioning is not a problem; we can't learn if we don't question. And if doubting by itself is sinful, how is it that Jesus came to Thomas to prove his wounds? Remember that of Jesus' 12 apostles, one betrayed him, one rejected him, and nine ran away. Only John walked his journey with him and stood at the foot of the cross. The rest cowered in terror. But Jesus forgave them, and turned his Church over to them. What can you do that is so much worse that Jesus would stop loving you?
And I can feel, OK, there must be something I've done wrong if I don't have inner peace because I know I'm too lazy to do as much work, as in charity work, or giving money to others rather than overspending on myself, as I probably ought to do...but I don't have real specific things to confess (yes, I did confess those. But I keep doing them!).
Then tell the priest that you have no mortal sins to confess, but you know you are a sinner. Pick a defect in your character, such as selfishness, or hypocrisy, or failure to give as much as you could and spending it on yourself instead, and confess that. Let Jesus through the priest guide you on a path of holiness by helping you to tackle your doubts and questions. And you will still keep doing them because you are weak and human, and that's the way God made you. We are on a journey to holiness; most of us will not achieve it in this life. What matters is the effort. Each day we should draw closer to living as Jesus lived, and most days we will fail, but we must never give up. Whatever we do not accomplish in this life, we will be given the opportunity to accomplish in the next.
I have either a scrupulous conscience or a new convert problem or something regarding when to receive Communion or not, and if one mortal sin can send you to hell, and we're capable of self-delusion--how on God's green earth are we supposed to be able to figure this out?
One unrepented mortal sin can send us to hell, but only because we have knowingly and willingly made the choice to reject God's love. And we're not supposed to figure it out. We're supposed to trust God. We can't do it, but all things are possible with God. Turn it over to God, and the rest will take care of itself.
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Luvadoxi
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 09:25 pm |
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| Cajunrick--thank you so very much. I'm going to be referring to your words of wisdom over and over again. God bless you and all the good folks on this board!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 11:05 am |
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I've reached the point where I need the "lived" reality of Catholic life, not just reading the rules out of the Catechism--and I haven't been able to really find that--how to apply the "rules" to life.
These are the words of a true disciple who wants to “be” a Christian and not merely read about it.
Fortunately, there is plenty that you can do about your situation. You are Catholic now; you have the right to avail yourself of frequent use of the sacraments. You can go to confession often and ask questions. These questions can be along the lines of, “What should I do differently when I examine my conscience? How do I distinguish between the different sins that I commit? How can I tell if I have actually sinned or I am just upset over something embarassing that happened? What can I do to improve my use of the sacraments?” The priest’s counsel should guide you to a greater level of comfort and “lived understanding.” Staying with the same priest for confession (once you have found the “right one”) is important, for he will come to know you well, and his counsel will be all the better for it.
Another thing that I found helpful was the discernment of my particular vocation. What is God calling me, individually, to do and to be? Again, this is something you can discuss with your confessor. But you can also find books on the topics of vocation (yes, the married state is a vocation, and the single state as well; the right employment, hobby or apostolate is also a matter of vocation) as well as on conformity to the will of God that will be of great help. I especially recommend books on abandonment to divine providence.
Then there are comprehensive books on the spiritual life which can help you understand the scope of moral, ascetical and mystical questions and provide general rules of thumb as to how to approach the many different circumstances that one encounters in prayer and the spiritual life. There are also books specifically on prayer, grace, certain widespread spiritual difficulties, etc.
Finally, there are books which provide helpful meditations one can use in prayer. These span a wide spectrum, depending on one’s interests and level of understanding.
If you need a bibliography, your confessor can suggest something. Or I can supply a list of my own favorites in any of these categories. The Catholic religion is rich in spiritual literature, and you should be partaking and discerning even as you pray, for this is the practical application of your relationship with God.
David
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